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Proud Christian Mom posted:Lol they passed that crossroads years ago the crossroad in this poorly-conceived metaphor is a road that runs into a ravine and there's a right turn that avoids the ravine but ends up in a smaller ditch
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May 1, 2017 16:31
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Finally getting around to watching Bristol 91. Holy poo poo Bristol is not a coliseum. Also Earnhardt just went in reverse into the pits lmao
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May 1, 2017 16:30
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I'm pretty sure the IRL used to draw a bigger crowd than that at Richmond.
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May 1, 2017 18:43
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Norns posted:Finally getting around to watching Bristol 91. Holy poo poo Bristol is not a coliseum. Spring bristol 91 is an insane race from a great season
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May 1, 2017 20:08
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kidcoelacanth posted:nascar is very quickly coming to a crossroads where if they don't look inwards and make wholesale changes to how they run their poo poo, this sport is completely hosed. it's an increasingly grim conversation. more than ever i'm worried that they've buried their heads in their own bullshit too far to pull back out at this point. as someone who's pretty much dedicated my life to this godforsaken traveling circus, both in my own time and in my career, it's utterly maddening that no one who has the power to fix things seems to give a poo poo. I remember attending an ISC stockholder meeting just for the hell of it on a trip to Daytona in like 2004 when Bill, Jr was still alive because I was a NASCAR nerd who thought it would be interesting. One of the measures in the meeting passed with one vote against- Bill's response (out loud) was a very huffed, GET OFFA MAH LAWN "Well that's too drat bad". Years later, my dad said none of what's gone on in this sport surprised him because of that attitude. I'm afraid the days of packed grandstands are gone and I have no faith in the France family to do the right thing to stem the bleeding after seeing the WSJ article at the start of the season. We all knew Brian was a retard- was there any point to the press conference this weekend in which his son was a panelist except for "Hey, I'm here! See? This is what you want!". But Lesa and Jim, too? It's no wonder Lesa's "legacy project" was the somewhat unnecessary high-end shopping center across from DIS. Firing Brian would draw some attention to the sport and probably make many fans happy if for no other reason than schadenfreude, but I don't see them doing it. The sport badly needs somebody who Gives A poo poo. The sad part is even if this thing gets pushed off the cliff once and for all, the Frances still win because they're loaded while many of the people involved in this sport will probably be screwed in one way or another (the fans who are left lose their sport, lots of people lose their jobs). kidcoelacanth posted:the crossroad in this poorly-conceived metaphor is a road that runs into a ravine and there's a right turn that avoids the ravine but ends up in a smaller ditch Like this? CBJSprague24 fucked around with this message at 21:25 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 21:20
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CBJSprague24 posted:The sad part is even if this thing gets pushed off the cliff once and for all, the Frances still win because they're loaded while many of the people involved in this sport will probably be screwed in one way or another (the fans who are left lose their sport, lots of people lose their jobs).
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May 1, 2017 21:24
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So what lead to the decline then in your opinions? My vote is the Chase, but that's me
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May 1, 2017 23:58
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I don't think the Chase in and of itself would've caused any decline, because as much as we complain about it, it is effective in consistently contriving a dramatic finale. I also don't think there's a single specific thing you can point at and say "this is what they did wrong," beyond the enormity of their success in the 90s and 00s setting a bar that's impossible to reach.
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May 2, 2017 00:19
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wicka posted:I don't think the Chase in and of itself would've caused any decline, because as much as we complain about it, it is effective in consistently contriving a dramatic finale. I also don't think there's a single specific thing you can point at and say "this is what they did wrong," beyond the enormity of their success in the 90s and 00s setting a bar that's impossible to reach. For me, it was the COT. However, even before that, the cars slowly went from something I could sort of relate to to a car with decals for tailpipes.
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May 2, 2017 01:27
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The 4 D's of Downfall: Dale, Darrell, Digger, Darlington.
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May 2, 2017 01:38
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It was not one thing, it was a lot of things in succession. Some of them were in NASCAR's control, some of them were not. Any one of the problems could have been headed off at the pass, but because they were ignored or misdiagnosed things are at a point where NASCAR is laying in the bed they've made. - As Gordon's generation of drivers starting coming in, the old generation of drivers were getting replaced, retiring, or (gulp) getting killed. The changing of the guard wasn't too big of a problem though since more and more new fans were coming into the fold, so the new blood would be able to earn a fanbase. - NASCAR updated the cars (COT), the tracks (SAFER barriers) and caution procedures (lucky dog, debris) to make the racing safer. The issues with the cars was something that could be worked out, but the abundance of safety for cautions was probably the main reason the racing became more boring. - The large and (apparently) growing fanbase reaped big money for NASCAR's TV deal. But then FOX and the others (but mostly FOX) had to go and gently caress over the casual TV viewer with wall-to-wall ads on every broadcast. This would have been tolerable if the racing was great, but because it usually wasn't it became a chore to sit through it. It was (and still is) especially frustrating when commercials were cut into the parts of the races that were actually worth watching. And NASCAR wonders why TV ratings started declining? (This is where I started tuning out.) - The economic downturn prevented a lot of NASCAR's core fanbase from attending races in its main market. Attendance took a nosedive. Not NASCAR's fault, but simply a reality of the times. NASCAR could have done good here by focusing on its big, traditional races and its large, traditional fanbase. But no, it had to chase after new fans and new money in new markets, who have WAY more things to do than to watch NASCAR on Sundays. - With boring races that no one can afford to attend in person, and boring races that no one wanted to sit through ads to have to watch on TV, NASCAR switches to the Chase format. This worked in the short-term to generate interest, but then JJ started winning every goddamn year. This hurt the perception of competition, which is something that could have been fixed by focusing on the competition within individual races—that people couldn't afford to attend or didn't want to wait through commercials to see. - After continuing to tweak the format instead of promoting better racing through better driver development—the downside of Buschwhacking—NASCAR takes a severe paycut to bring in Monster and triples-down on stage racing and the playoffs. This may be another thing were you get short-term gains (the racing has been better here and there, IMO) but… - Due to NASCAR's past mistakes, the generation of fans that came in with Smoke, Gordon, Dale Jr, and Jimmy will be leaving with them. Through the last 20 years NASCAR and their TV partners were focusing on chasing money instead of laying the groundwork to see traditional markets through to the next generations and getting good drivers up through their ladder system more quickly. Now NASCAR is in a bad place where they need to convince a generation of distant fans that these drivers they haven't really heard of will produce good racing, provided you can solve the points system they're racing under. Good luck with that, guys. Having stuck through the Indycar split, the thing that kept me connected to the series, despite it all, was its traditions. The Indy 500 is the Indy 500 no matter what, because if you've stuck around for 100 years and draw hundreds of thousands even in your worst years, you're doing something right. When the Daytona 500 gives you crapshoot winner Trevor Bayne and commercial-free coverage until-the-next-commercial on TV…that's the kind of "Great American Race" that's showing you the part of America that Some People want to make Great Again. No thanks. Just show me good, hard racing with few distractions and fewer gimmicks.
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May 2, 2017 02:13
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re: The Decline. As I've said here before, (and this will come as a shock) I was a bigger cup fan than I ever was an Indy fan. I have a lot of fond memories when growing up north? It was kinda mocked as stuff southern Hillbillies watched. Then the Fox contract came and with it NASCAR seemed to really push hard for the soccer mom/suburb types that were suddenly finding their way into the sport. With that? NASCAR kinda pushed for them extra hard and threw through their traditional fanbase under the bus. It was kind of a "fad" in 2000's america. So you see a move away from traditional venues in areas that had strong support for Cup, in to areas that were seeing temporary peaks in popularity like Kansas, Chicago, etc I think ultimately what you saw was in 08? That all went away. The economic crisis hit, and the people that had once filled places? no longer had the income nor the interest to subsidize a substandard gimmick laden product. Not to mention that a lot of popular guys like Mark Martin, Dale Sr., Bill Elliot, Rusty Wallace, Terry Labonte and such had all hung it up around that time. The exact "bubble pop" moment was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZKFc4T-tTY
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May 2, 2017 02:13
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Brian France still thinks he's one gimmick away from dethroning the NFL
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May 2, 2017 02:16
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iospace posted:So what lead to the decline then in your opinions? My vote is the Chase, but that's me I think it was Jay Busbee who summed it up best: they tried to be too much to too many people at the same time. NASCAR could've settled in to be a solid #2 in the American sports world, yet seemingly wanted to top the NFL and failed badly. -The Chase, in its initial form, was stupid, yet ratings continued to rise before falling. See my thoughts on that below. -The CoT was well-intended with regard to safety, but a universal failure NASCAR finally had to develop another new car to get away from that new car to fix. -The cost of the sport has risen to the point where sponsors don't buy full-season packages anymore (whether that's a commentary on cost or perceived/realized ROI, I don't know) and names like Jeff Gordon, Dale Jr, and Danica Patrick had/have unsold races during the season. -The roster of up-and-coming stars hasn't been that great to backfill new stars when the old guard started to retire. I feel like NASCAR got lucky with Blaney/Elliott/Larson/Suarez/Jones coming into their own just in time for Gordon/Stewart/Biffle/Edwards/Junyer to leave- if this happens a few years ago, who the hell fills those rides? (Even then, YMMV, but the only ones I like out of that pack are Blaney and Larson. Chase feels too corporate for me, Jones has that Kyle Busch whiner stank on him, and I'm neutral on Suarez). One of the biggest problems is they continue to double down on progressively worse ideas in a variety of categories. The Caution Clock/Stages have had mixed results to improve the quality of racing- I actually don't mind the Stages. They've created a massive barrier to entry for new teams with the Charter system; JRM's going to have to buy into the sport if they ever want to come to Cup. They introduced Chases in NXS and CWTS to make those series more exciting, except nobody gives a gently caress about NXS anymore. e- I guess another example I can give since we're both NASCAR and NHL fans: I'm somebody who believes you can make sports too complicated and take some of the fun out of them as a result. I don't give a gently caress about Corsi, Fenwick, PDO, Zone Starts, HERO charts, Anticipated Saves in hockey, and I don't care about how many Stage wins somebody has or how many Race Points vs. Playoff Points they have right now. And all those football-esque stats they came out with in the late 2000s (Driver Rating, Quality Passes)?  Give me hockeymans skating around firing pucks on goal and what happens after Boogity, Boogity, Boogity. wicka posted:I don't think the Chase in and of itself would've caused any decline, because as much as we complain about it, it is effective in consistently contriving a dramatic finale. I also don't think there's a single specific thing you can point at and say "this is what they did wrong," beyond the enormity of their success in the 90s and 00s setting a bar that's impossible to reach. The problem with the Chase itself has been the constant tweaking ("We reserve the right to make changes where we see fit"). We went from 10 to 12 to 10+2 to 16 (four formats) in 10 years. The consistent contrived finales are only a product of Most Extreme Elimination Chase: the only "good" finishes I can remember before it became the raceoff from Cars were 2004 (Busch/JJ/Gordon/Martin/Jr all in it), 2011 (The Smoke show), and maybe 2010. Another drawback in multiple ways is Chad Knaus and Jimmie Johnson found ways to clown the system, almost clinching early in 2009 if not for Sam Hornish, Jr., while NASCAR continued to try to find the right formula to create thrilling finishes each year, which resulted in a literal "we HAVE to have Game 7" situation. It's not organic, it's required. NASCAR had everything go right to have excitement at Homestead the first year and they panicked when it didn't happen every year after. e- Jesus Christ, I forgot all about the Playoff Points/Race Points thing this year. Depending on your interpretation, that's five formats in 14 years. 
CBJSprague24 fucked around with this message at 02:48 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 02:17
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CBJSprague24 posted:The problem with the Chase itself has been the constant tweaking ("We reserve the right to make changes where we see fit"). We went from 10 to 12 to 10+2 to 16 (four formats) in 10 years. The consistent contrived finales are only a product of Most Extreme Elimination Chase: the only "good" finishes I can remember before it became the raceoff from Cars were 2004 (Busch/JJ/Gordon/Martin/Jr all in it), 2011 (The Smoke show), and maybe 2010. The tweaking in and of itself wasn't the problem. The problem was that NASCAR had trapped itself into believing that the only possible way that they could improve The Show was through format changes. Had NASCAR been focusing on having a lot of good teams and good drivers, any tweaking they could have done to the championship would have been secondary to the racing. Instead we have the format dictating EVERYTHING, instead of the racing being front and center.
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May 2, 2017 03:04
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CBJSprague24 posted:NASCAR had everything go right to have excitement at Homestead the first year and they panicked when it didn't happen every year after. It's actually even worse than that: every new system has been more complicated/conveluded than the previous one. It's near-impossible to keep up and any casual fan isn't going to bother more learning more than once in their life before saying "gently caress it, let's just watch some Golden Girls reruns instead." In fact, I know it's early, but: NASCAR 2018: Let's watch some Golden Girls reruns instead Harveygod fucked around with this message at 03:24 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 03:19
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Proud Christian Mom posted:Brian France still thinks he's one gimmick away from dethroning the NFL It's not unfair to say that they were close as hell to actually rivaling the NFL for popularity during their bubble. The NBA was down in popularity at the time (Kobe rape case, Spurs-Pistons were the top two teams in the league. LeBron wasn't quite a thing). The NHL also gave the finger to several loyal fanbases and locked itself out. MLB was dealing with the steroid controversy. CART/CCWS and the IRL were still in a pissing match. F1 wasn't going to suddenly become popular over night because of racing at IMS and Scott Speed. So they did in fact have it right in front of them had they left well enough alone. The problem is..well, they didn't.
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May 2, 2017 05:01
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NASCAR just needs Vince McMahon.
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May 2, 2017 05:45
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keevo posted:NASCAR just needs Vince McMahon. NASCAR just needs crew and family members watching the race on TV monitors at awkward, unnatural angles.
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May 2, 2017 05:59
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The real problem is all the good racing is in places that are not desirable to visit other than the race, with the possible exception of Daytona and the spring Phoenix race. Hence the falling attendance. Racing is a way better experience consumed on television, doubly so if it's Waltrip-free.
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May 2, 2017 06:13
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I can't wait to see the gimmicks for next year to compensate for Junyer retiring. I'd watch regularly again if they introduced paintball mode from NASCAR '98.
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May 2, 2017 06:15
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Fauxhawk Express posted:I can't wait to see the gimmicks for next year to compensate for Junyer retiring. I'd watch regularly again if they introduced paintball mode from NASCAR '98. More stages! Next year the Daytona 500 will be broken up into 200 stages. The driver that leads a stage gets a bonus point, the driver that leads the most stages gets more bonus points, and the winner of the last stage gets the trophy.
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May 2, 2017 06:43
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Maybe they'll finally add the "one lap on foot" idea.
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May 2, 2017 11:13
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FuzzySkinner posted:It's not unfair to say that they were close as hell to actually rivaling the NFL for popularity during their bubble. They rivaled the NFL. They shouldn't have tried to pass them. Just be like Greg Biffle- content to finish 2nd on the big stage. keevo posted:NASCAR just needs Vince McMahon. Teddy Long, playa. HOLLA HOLLA HOLLA. Fauxhawk Express posted:I can't wait to see the gimmicks for next year to compensate for Junyer retiring. I'd watch regularly again if they introduced paintball mode from NASCAR '98. I'm looking forward to the Charter exemption to get JR Motorsports into Cup full-time. Because we know NASCAR loves them some exemptions, I tell ya what. WindyMan posted:More stages! Next year the Daytona 500 will be broken up into 200 stages. The driver that leads a stage gets a bonus point, the driver that leads the most stages gets more bonus points, and the winner of the last stage gets the trophy. 100 GWCs. Peanut President posted:Maybe they'll finally add the "one lap on foot" idea. Tusken Raiders.
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May 2, 2017 14:29
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WindyMan posted:- NASCAR updated the cars (COT), the tracks (SAFER barriers) and caution procedures (lucky dog, debris) to make the racing safer. The issues with the cars was something that could be worked out, but the abundance of safety for cautions was probably the main reason the racing became more boring.
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May 2, 2017 14:47
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John Andretti has Stage IV colon cancer: https://twitter.com/John_Andretti/status/859386307046408193 e- To Slickdrac's points, Keselowski can be a fun interview sometimes, especially when he's saying things NASCAR would rather you not hear. NASCAR can't decide what they want their drivers to be- they keep flipping on Boys, Have At It and "we want them to have PASSION" only to implement that ridiculous censorship system which was unveiled last season. The TV deal stuck us with NBC because TNT and ESPN both were told the prices and said "No, thank you" and NBC needed content to build NBCSN. As for the at-track experience, as I've said, they updated Daytona and it's...nice? (albeit significantly flawed in some areas), but the fans are paying for it through ticket prices which went back up to the point where you can pay three figures again for seats in the Splash Zone featuring the Kyle Larson/Austin Dillon Postrace Meet 'n Greet, which is insane. CBJSprague24 fucked around with this message at 16:00 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 15:12
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CBJSprague24 posted:John Andretti has Stage IV colon cancer: Aw man 
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May 2, 2017 16:04
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shame on an IGA posted:The 4 D's of Downfall: Dale, Darrell, Digger, Darlington. reminder that the Fox merchandise trailer was called the "Digger Rig" VikingSkull fucked around with this message at 16:29 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 16:27
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What he says bears repeating. If you're over 50, or over 40 with a family history, get a colonoscopy. It's covered (at least for now) as a preventative procedure. The most unpleasant part isn't even the procedure, it's the gallon of prep you have to drink the night before. And if they find something, a lot of times they just take care of it right then, and the prognosis is really good.
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May 2, 2017 16:28
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Cut the laps of races. By about half, with the exception of Daytona and the 600. Cut 11 races off the season, no repeat tracks. More short tracks, at least 1 more road course. Cut grandstands to no more than 60,000 people. Fix the cars. By fix, I mean switch to sports cars that don't have spoilers or splitters. B-series runs a 4 cylinder with cup running a 6. Get rid of the truck series. 1 point per position, 5 point bonus for wins, 1 point for pole, 1 point for leading a lap. Most points at the end is champion. No more sponsorship blocks. Right now companies can literally buy a sponsorship with nascar and include barring its competitors from advertising which prevents companies who want in from being there. Also the official x of nascar poo poo needs to go away. Get rid of Goodyear. In theory the financial goal needs to be getting costs down for teams so they can go back to 1 primary sponsor for the entire season. Trying to guess what loving color car your driver is in this week is annoying. I use to be able to turn on the tv and look for the black 3 with Goodwrench written on it. It use to be a big rear end deal when a sponsor changed or paint scheme was switched. Now you need a loving livery guide for every god drat race. Also cutting costs would likely allow for full fields. Lets not point fingers at charters being a problem when we aren't even running full fields. You also need to rethink the concept of ratings since people are consuming sports, and entertainment as a collective, differently and its not accurately accounted for.
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May 2, 2017 16:31
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the loving Truck series has been consistently awesome all these years and they'd be loving dumb to cut it in favor of some 4 cylinder bullshit
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May 2, 2017 16:35
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Don't cut truck what the flying gently caress
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May 2, 2017 16:35
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Cutting the costs of running a team and putting together some kind of cap is going to be absolutely necessary. Sponsorships are never going away because there's no money otherwise, but a sponsor should be able to easily own one car for a whole year. Also if you're going to dump a series it should be Xfinity
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May 2, 2017 16:37
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you can tell who doesn't watch the Trucks by who thinks they should get rid of the Trucks
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May 2, 2017 16:38
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The truck series is awesome because of poo poo aero and a bunch of kids trying to learn how to drive by competing against Matt Crafton. You would have the same thing in the Xfinity series only those kids would be learning how to drive by competing against Elliot Sadler.
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May 2, 2017 16:39
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sorry man, that one is just change for the sake of change the Trucks are not what's wrong with NASCAR
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May 2, 2017 17:14
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The trucks have always been good because the races are short. They're what Cup or NXS racing could be if all the races weren't so long and drawn out.
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May 2, 2017 17:35
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If cup races were 250s-300s instead of 400s-500s I'd watch way more races, personally.
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May 2, 2017 17:51
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It would make races like Daytona a bit more special if there were only a couple long rear end races a season.
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May 2, 2017 17:53
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Yeah, I'd keep the plate tracks and I guess the Coke 600 long - maybe Bristol too? I just can't justify spending an entire Sunday afternoon watching this poo poo anymore. Feel the same way about the NFL.
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May 2, 2017 18:01
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