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Hemingway To Go! posted:Not everyone is going to have the same perception of something that's gone as long and has as many stories as Batman The absolute most amazing part of that is Scarface but not the Ventriloquist being lobotomized.
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May 1, 2017 06:08
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ToastyPotato posted:I think it has trouble articulating its point, but I do understand the point it is trying to make, I think. I believe Batman is saying he doesn't kill the Joker or people like him because it would quickly become his go to method for dealing with problems like that. It wouldn't stop at Joker, or Penguin, or Two Face, or Black Mask. I think the implication is that he is already kind of addicted to crossing legal lines and using violence to deal with criminals, if he normalizes the idea of killing them for himself, he's going to become addicted to that too, and it would be very, very easy for him to do it. Probably much easier than what he is doing now. It's an interesting idea that a lot of comic stuff seem to dance around, but I have never seen any one story really commit to exploring the idea deeply. Amusingly, the one time a comic showed what would happen if Batman killed the Joker, not only Batman killed every other major rogue around, it ushered a world of global peace where superheroes were no longer needed. 
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May 1, 2017 06:11
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Amusingly, the one time a comic showed what would happen if Batman killed the Joker, not only Batman killed every other major rogue around, it ushered a world of global peace where superheroes were no longer needed. I can say that's 100% not true considering that Batman killed the Joker in The Nail and it just meant be got branded a crazy murderer and then the Joker went to hell and got superpowers. He also killed The Joker in Red Rain and that didn't end well for anyone. Frankly killing the Joker has never really worked out in his favor.
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May 1, 2017 06:17
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Agreed. Joker died in arkham city and we were all punished with Arkham Knight
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May 1, 2017 06:35
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ImpAtom posted:I can say that's 100% not true considering that Batman killed the Joker in The Nail and it just meant be got branded a crazy murderer and then the Joker went to hell and got superpowers. He also killed The Joker in Red Rain and that didn't end well for anyone. Frankly killing the Joker has never really worked out in his favor. That is not entirely accurate. Both examples you mention are things that happen on their respective sequels, Another Nail and Crimson Mist. The Nail doesn't show any serious consequence about Batman murdering the Joker beside hurting his reputation. That as the story reveals later, was a set up on which Batman walked right in. Red Rain on the other hand ends with Bruce asking Alfred to killing him after doing the deed with the Joker and is only due Alfred and Gordon's actions that things go so wrong on Crimson Mist. Anyways, I was talking of this     
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May 1, 2017 06:36
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:That is not entirely accurate. Both examples you mention are things that happen on their respective sequels, Another Nail and Crimson Mist. The Nail doesn't show any serious consequence about Batman murdering the Joker beside hurting his reputation. Batman murdering the Joker and how it a massively damaging thing to his reputation is, uh, kind of a serious plot point there and Batman murdering the Joker is what turns him into a real vampire. What are you talking about?  I'm shocked you're referencing a terrible story about Jason Todd though. Just shocked. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:15 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 15:11
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ImpAtom posted:Batman murdering the Joker and how it a massively damaging thing to his reputation is, uh, kind of a serious plot point there and Batman murdering the Joker is what turns him into a real vampire. What are you talking about? Which story is about Jason Todd? He seems to be quite unpopular here.
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May 1, 2017 15:18
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NikkolasKing posted:Which story is about Jason Todd? Jason Todd was the second Robin and his gimmick, once they gave him one, was that he was the Bad Boy. He also was fairly unpopular and they actually killed him off after a phone poll where people voted on his survival. He was inevitably brought back to life as the Red Hood, a villain who hated Batman, and basically existed as a giant walking monument to his failures. I didn't like this much (because I loathe "why didn't Batman kill The Joker?!?!" stories) but a fair number of people did. He eventually transitioned into being an Anti-Hero who amounts to like Bat-Punisher. However he's genuinely written absolutely awfully 90% of the time. Either because he's just badly written or because his mere existence as a member of the Bat-family who murders people with guns is incredibly hard to reconcile and requires most of the cast to make weak arguments about how Jason Does What Needs To be Done!! Jason Todd can be written well but unfortunately 90% of the time he's a lame tryhard anti-hero. He's also got an inflated bad reputation here because D_T is the world's biggest Jason Todd fan and never shuts up about how he's the most amazing best character on the entire planet in every single thread remotely connected to the character. Edit: Also Arkham Knight didn't help his reputation any because people were annoyed that they swore the character who obviously wasn't Jason Todd was in fact Jason Todd. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 16:04
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ImpAtom posted:Jason Todd was the second Robin and his gimmick, once they gave him one, was that he was the Bad Boy. He also was fairly unpopular and they actually killed him off after a phone poll where people voted on his survival. I'm aware of most of that. Been doing as much research on the Bat Family as I can the last few days. Plus I watched Under the Red Hood. Thank you for the info, though.
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May 1, 2017 16:16
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:That is not entirely accurate. Both examples you mention are things that happen on their respective sequels, Another Nail and Crimson Mist. The Nail doesn't show any serious consequence about Batman murdering the Joker beside hurting his reputation. That as the story reveals later, was a set up on which Batman walked right in. Red Rain on the other hand ends with Bruce asking Alfred to killing him after doing the deed with the Joker and is only due Alfred and Gordon's actions that things go so wrong on Crimson Mist. What comic / issue is this?
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May 1, 2017 16:31
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ThermoPhysical posted:What comic / issue is this? The ugliest comic in the world
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May 1, 2017 16:36
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ThermoPhysical posted:What comic / issue is this? Countdown issues 16, 15 and 14. ImpAtom posted:Batman murdering the Joker and how it a massively damaging thing to his reputation is, uh, kind of a serious plot point there and Batman murdering the Joker is what turns him into a real vampire. What are you talking about? Murdering the Joker on The Nail is a relatively minor part of that story and unlike the Countdown bit, it doesn't left Bruce completely isolated since he finally get together with Selina. Then you have how the story sort of justifies his actions by first making the Joker kill Robin and Batgirl and then by making it all part of Jimmy's bid to destroy the heroes. The Nail even ends on a positive note with the drafting of Superman on the JL and the promise of things going into the status quo we're used to. Although in fairness, that is common to most elseworlds. Any actual consequences from the killing the Joker only comes on Another Nail and given there's a five year gap between it and The Nail, makes hard to think is something added after the fact just to cash in on The Nail's success. As for Bloodstorm, is not killing the Joker what fully turns Bruce into a vampire. The entire story has him struggling to control his urges, something that he finally achieves after he meets Selina. Is only after her murder that Bruce decides to stop resisting and feeds on the Joker. But that is framed by the story as the ultimate sacrifice, with Bruce as a tragic hero doing his best with the hand he was dealt. Once again, the consequences of this are dealt by Crimson Mist that coincidentally was also published five years after Blood Storm. Rather than the stories downright telling killing the Joker would be a bad thing, it seems to me is more about editorial backpedaling and throwing as much poo poo they can to Batman after the fact to avoid people going "Batman killed the Joker on an elseworld and things were fine afterwards, why he doesn't do the same on the regular comics?"
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May 1, 2017 16:58
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There is something really perfect to me about Jason Todd waking up in the universe where Bats has decided to use guns to shoot all the bad guys and still being massively upset. It shows that Jason isn't just "It makes more sense to kill Joker, so I'm gonna do it". He's "I just want to do whatever the opposite of Batman is."
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May 1, 2017 17:22
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SonicRulez posted:There is something really perfect to me about Jason Todd waking up in the universe where Bats has decided to use guns to shoot all the bad guys and still being massively upset. It shows that Jason isn't just "It makes more sense to kill Joker, so I'm gonna do it". He's "I just want to do whatever the opposite of Batman is." Jason is not really upset, at worst he's overwhelmed by Batman's actions. What sets him off is the way this Bruce dismiss everyone's else, the lack of interest on even putting a fight when it matters. Once Bruce relents, they actually work pretty well together.       
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May 1, 2017 17:34
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That sure is some awful bullshit, but at least you didn't post it in a completely irrelevant thread about cartoons or something
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May 1, 2017 17:53
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Of course Dark TitsAnime likes Countdown.
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May 1, 2017 19:04
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Countdown was horrible in every single way. Man you are not helping your opinions Dark_Tzitzimine
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May 1, 2017 19:07
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I'm not denying that. But the Jason side of the plot was enjoyable enough and the best Jason had been written since his resurrection. They shat the bed at the end anyways. The Search for Ray Palmer mini was really fun though.
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May 1, 2017 19:25
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but what about Forerunner guys!?
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May 1, 2017 19:35
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The honest reason that Batman doesn't kill anyone is because he's devoted his life to stop people from being murdered. It's his thing.The reason that Superman doesn't murder is that his whole existence is thanks to his parents having the hope and faith in people they'd never met on a faraway planet not being monsters and instead loving and caring for their son as one of their own. To kill is to give up hope on someone, and that's not Superman's thing. The thing that's broken about Batman is the Joker. Because everyone got a hardon for the Killing Joke and despite The Dark Knight doing a better job at refining that book's themes, people still just want to write Joker being all about CHAOS and some loving point that's boring. Like we get it. There's nothing else you can do or say. And honestly just bring him back to being a comedian who doesn't see the law as being a boundary to his humor. But also, smugly saying "Well don't you just kill the Joker" makes no actual sense in a comic book universe. These motherfuckers live in the DC Universe. Kill him? Why? So he can become the King of Hell? So he can come back as a ghost and possess Alfred? So Batman can find out that he had some hosed up contingency plan to trigger one last joke upon his death? As lovely a game as Arkham Knight was, it's a pretty goddamn realistic depiction of what would happen if you actually killed Batman. Honestly if you want the actual TACTICAL REALISM thing Batman should do it would be to essentially keep him in a big terrarium at the very bottom of the batcave. But he'll probably find a motherbox down there somehow because comics.
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May 1, 2017 22:35
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I've said it before but "Why don't you kill the Joker" relies on the comic book idea that the Joker, a completely non-powered regular person, will always and without fail escape from jail/the asylum and that there is no force on Earth that can contain him, and that bit of comic book lore must be taken as accurate, but only that bit. There is no point where anything else can be accepted and so we have to deal with the infinitely tedious argument over killing The Joker because I guess death is a magic button that will stop him forever? (Unless he's infested Tim Drake/has a magic Joker virus/literally comes back from Hell/is cloned/pops back in from an alternate dimension.) It's quite possibly the dumbest motherfucking ongoing plotline in comic books. I can't think of a single one which is more genuinely stupid, ill-considered and a flat-out waste of everyone's time..
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May 1, 2017 22:39
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ImpAtom posted:I've said it before but "Why don't you kill the Joker" relies on the comic book idea that the Joker, a completely non-powered regular person, will always and without fail escape from jail/the asylum and that there is no force on Earth that can contain him, and that bit of comic book lore must be taken as accurate, but only that bit. There is no point where anything else can be accepted and so we have to deal with the infinitely tedious argument over killing The Joker because I guess death is a magic button that will stop him forever? (Unless he's infested Tim Drake/has a magic Joker virus/literally comes back from Hell/is cloned/pops back in from an alternate dimension.) Well, to me, it should depend. For us, we know death is near-meaningless in comics. But for the people of the DC Universe, it should carry some weight. "He'll escape from prison" shouldn't be lumped in with "he'll escape from Hell even if you kill him." That would just erode all semblance of meaning to anything that happens. At that point, the characters in-universe admit death has no lasting effect, The Punisher becomes a waste of everyone's time and Batman's no kill rule is similarly worthless.
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May 1, 2017 22:50
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But it's not the real justification for not killing the Joker. The real justification is that Batman just doesn't kill. And I get why that notion doesn't mesh when you have Joker killing swathes of people every time he shows up. But the solution to fixing that problem isn't breaking Batman, it's fixing the Joker. My post was more mocking the attempts at trying to be logical and tactical in a story about a man who seeks out to eliminate all crime. Related there was a pretty good gag in Slott's She-Hulk where they were arguing if a ghost could testify at his own trial. He was allowed on the basis that half the court had died during the Infinity Gauntlet.
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May 1, 2017 23:04
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NikkolasKing posted:Well, to me, it should depend. For us, we know death is near-meaningless in comics. But for the people of the DC Universe, it should carry some weight. "He'll escape from prison" shouldn't be lumped in with "he'll escape from Hell even if you kill him." That would just erode all semblance of meaning to anything that happens. At that point, the characters in-universe admit death has no lasting effect, The Punisher becomes a waste of everyone's time and Batman's no kill rule is similarly worthless. Well, the problem is that in any reasonable terms "The Joker keeps escaping and killing everyone again, you should kill him" falls into the same category. Batman, even ignoring the Justice League, regularly hangs out with magicians, has encountered demons from hell, and otherwise deals with stuff beyond the mortal ken, including dead men who return. Including the Justice League he regularly hangs out with people who come back from the dead and half the reason The Joker is so dangerous is because he gets the same absurd power-level boost Batman gets to hang out on that level. You can't really ignore it when part of the argument is "Well, the Joker is magic!"
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May 1, 2017 23:17
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I didn't mean the debate to explode like this, but I'll guess I'll just sum it up by saying I've always agreed with Chris Sim's take on why batman does not kill and I really don't like the storylines(like the red hood one) which suggests that batman doesn't kill because he could lose control or something, which makes no goddamn sense considering he's probably got the most willpower of any human being on the planet Here's the article from Chris sims I was referring to. It's a good read. http://comicsalliance.com/batman-kills/ Edit- also the joker shouldn't be alive because any cop or guard would just shoot him in the head and claim self defense and instantly get off. So the whole argument is sort of moot. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 23:39
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Monaghan posted:considering he's probably got the most willpower of any human being on the planet except Hal Jordan, of course
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May 2, 2017 01:17
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Samuringa posted:except Hal Jordan, of course I'm surprised they haven't done a Joker w/ GL or Sinestro Corps ring, yet. I guess it would just be a bad take on Emperor Joker, eh?
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May 2, 2017 01:32
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Return of the Caped Crusaders is a really great movie you guys!
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May 2, 2017 01:37
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HIJK posted:Return of the Caped Crusaders is a really great movie you guys! Seconding. I found edgelord Adam West to be especially hilarious since I was just forced to watch Batman V Superman by my idiot roommate.
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May 2, 2017 01:42
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Isn't there an elseworld of Batman finding a green lantern ring and basically becoming super duper powerful because of his willpower and stuff
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May 2, 2017 02:04
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Calaveron posted:Isn't there an elseworld of Batman finding a green lantern ring and basically becoming super duper powerful because of his willpower and stuff In Darkest Knight, one of the better Elseworldy pun titles.
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May 2, 2017 02:04
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Calaveron posted:Isn't there an elseworld of Batman finding a green lantern ring and basically becoming super duper powerful because of his willpower and stuff And in John's run on Green Lantern, it was with the greatest difficulty for Batman to work the ring. He could only do it by remembering his parents and being happy and stuff. Now a sinestro corps ring, Batman can work that with no problem.
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May 2, 2017 11:43
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Timeless Appeal posted:But it's not the real justification for not killing the Joker. The real justification is that Batman just doesn't kill. And I get why that notion doesn't mesh when you have Joker killing swathes of people every time he shows up. But the solution to fixing that problem isn't breaking Batman, it's fixing the Joker. My post was more mocking the attempts at trying to be logical and tactical in a story about a man who seeks out to eliminate all crime. Yeah, this is it. The solution is just to edge Joker back from "gruesome spree killer with vague 'jokes!' theming" and into "criminal comedian who will do horrible things if it's funny". There are so many Joker stories now where he just slaughters people with knives or poison gas or whatever and the only nod to his raison d'etre is that they have him laugh or maybe make a pun while he does it. The jokes angle should be primary for him, not secondary to him wanting to kill a bunch of people.
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May 2, 2017 12:00
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May 2, 2017 13:11
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And then,knowing how edgy DC Comics are, Joker probably wound up killing that guy anyway.
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May 2, 2017 13:29
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The Question IRL posted:And in John's run on Green Lantern, it was with the greatest difficulty for Batman to work the ring. He could only do it by remembering his parents and being happy and stuff. Batman should be real powerful as a Green Lantern, but with great difficulty since he's built on rage and fear.
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May 2, 2017 14:00
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Android Blues posted:Yeah, this is it. The solution is just to edge Joker back from "gruesome spree killer with vague 'jokes!' theming" and into "criminal comedian who will do horrible things if it's funny". There are so many Joker stories now where he just slaughters people with knives or poison gas or whatever and the only nod to his raison d'etre is that they have him laugh or maybe make a pun while he does it. The jokes angle should be primary for him, not secondary to him wanting to kill a bunch of people. It's why he worked really well in Arkham Knight. They couldn't do anything with him but black comedy, so they really leant into that.
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May 2, 2017 14:05
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VolticSurge posted:And then,knowing how edgy DC Comics are, Joker probably wound up killing that guy anyway. He did not. I mean, it's Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, so it's a standalone tale, but give Gaiman some credit.
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May 2, 2017 14:51
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Unmature posted:The ugliest comic in the world How unmature of you. I'm not sorry for that joke. To be honest, I'm not really big into the Bat comics, I'm more into Marvel. The comic DT posted may be awful but it's not Dan Slott and I'm ok with that. I hated some of the art in No Man's Land so...maybe I'm slightly terrible too.
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May 2, 2017 17:14
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VolticSurge posted:And then,knowing how edgy DC Comics are, Joker probably wound up killing that guy anyway. Neil Gaiman wrote that bit. It's from "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?"
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May 3, 2017 01:23
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