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sheri posted:My point was my job doesn't require me to put in hours of work at home every night on a regular basis, so your argument of sending kids home with hours of homework every night to prepare them for "jobs and reality" isn't the best argument. What is your job? I'm surrounded by degree'd professionals who put in far more than 40 hours a week every week. I'm surrounded by kids who go to school and work. I'm surrounded by kids whose parents work 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. My graduated students - the ones who actually are successful - work constantly and are still always on edge, trying to meet incredible demands. A shocking number of them hit the college level and almost immediately drop out because they are not prepared for the reality of having to work independently and study a LOT outside of class hours. Forgive me for dismissing your vague anecdote, but I suspect your experience may not be the norm.
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May 2, 2017 03:54
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sheri posted:My point was my job doesn't require me to put in hours of work at home every night on a regular basis, so your argument of sending kids home with hours of homework every night to prepare them for "jobs and reality" isn't the best argument. Yeah. I would say my argument for sending kids home with homework (not hours upon hours of it though) is that independent practice is legit and necessary and learning things super slow because you never independently practice them is boring and too repetitive. edit: I don't really approve of our overworked culture so I'm kind of cool with not raising our kids to think that working 60+ hours a week at a lovely job is ok. But homework is still useful and important.
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May 2, 2017 03:55
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Hawkgirl posted:Right. The agreement research-wise seems to be that we can be better on homework in general and that young kids below 3rd grade should have 0-20 minutes of homework a night. That's not the same as don't give anyone homework because it's all busywork. Pretty much. I don't think anyone believes that ten year old kids should be doing 3 hours of homework a night. But if you're in the upper classes of high school and you can't handle some homework, what the hell? I mean, at some point you have to prepare for college, which is a tremendous load of independent study.
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May 2, 2017 03:57
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litany of gulps posted:What is your job? litany of gulps posted:Last I checked I was on a salary, like most of the professional workforce, where you work as much you need to work to accomplish your goals.
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May 2, 2017 03:57
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I work in IT. I have a masters degree. My experience may not be the norm but I think that expecting elementary school kids to do hours of homework a night should not be the norm either.
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May 2, 2017 03:59
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sheri posted:I work in IT. I have a masters degree. I think we are all in agreement 
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May 2, 2017 03:59
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But your job assumes a level of automatic ability in your given field that you arrive at through study and due diligence, and children do not have that. For example, in my AP Music Theory class, about halfway through the school year we begin the practice of Part Writing, which means filling in chords from a given bass line. For students first starting this, it's a very new skillset, and a single chord progression can take upwards of 30 minutes to complete because they have to double check their work against rules (of which there a many, which I scaffold and add as we go along in our learning, which means more practice time), there's a good chance they did it wrong and have to start portions of it over (which as they go along and make these mistakes they learn what to look for / better ways to approach the mechanics of doing it, more learning and practice required), and they need to be able to get to a point where they can do it indpedently because that's the whole point and my point of assessment is to ask "can you do this by yourself now." Eventually, at the end of the year for the AP test they are expected to complete this individual learning task in 15min. As an expert in my field who has done this process a shitton, I can do one on the board in 5 minutes. So think of anything you do in your work day that is expected to be mechanic just to function. You had to learn that somewhere. It takes 10,000 hours to be a master of something, right? Half of that is maybe competent, but requires a baseline understanding of some foundational mechanics to be competent at your job. How did you get there? Did you do it all in class, guided, with a manual in front of you? Do you still work that way? Would you be hired of.you did? Or did at some point someone say "study this and practice at home so you can do it on your own without assistance," because....that's what you needed to be able to do to have a baseline skillset for your chosen profession and expertise area?
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May 2, 2017 03:59
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Timeless Appeal posted:Depends on your contract. In NYC, it's assumed that you can reasonably get your work done during your prep and admin which is very optimistic, but there you go. Any time where the school is requiring you to work extra (Parent/teacher conference for example), you make money on top of that. So there are clear distinctions in regards to hours. Just wanted to say this is the case in Washington State as well, although I work in a fairly large district with a very strong union. We have 35 hours per week salaried, then a set number of building training, district training, independent, technology training (all separate), and depending on your position (for example, special education with extra paperwork), supplemental hours. You also get paid from a separate fund for attending meetings afterschool. After working in NC and SC, I can easily say the presence of unions is good for teachers, which is good for students because we get some very good ones. Even with these extras, most teachers use all their extra time before they finish the year, so there are still many unpaid hours.
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May 2, 2017 04:00
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twodot posted:So you've got something other than a vague anecdote? Sure, you absurd pedant gimmick. It is (or should be) commonly known by everyone involved in this argument that the average adult US worker does more than 40 hours a week of work. The most basic searches on our great information network can get you this information. Here, I will help you. https://www.bls.gov/tus/charts/chart1.pdf According to the BLS, the average adult American worker does almost 9 hours of work (not including lunch or breaks) per weekday. I'm sure you can do the basic multiplication, or do you need your hand held for that too?
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May 2, 2017 04:01
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litany of gulps posted:Sure, you absurd pedant gimmick. It is (or should be) commonly known by everyone involved in this argument that the average adult US worker does more than 40 hours a week of work. The most basic searches on our great information network can get you this information. Here, I will help you.
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May 2, 2017 04:03
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twodot posted:Cool, I'm happy to replace every instance of "40" with "45" in my posts on this thread if that will make you happy. Your tone implies a dismissal of nearly a full extra workday of hours. Is that what you mean to imply? That almost an entire full extra workday of hours is trivial? Edit: Let's see, the average American has 2 days off a week, no? If you spend nearly a full extra workday of hours working on one of those days, what percentage of your time off have you lost?
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May 2, 2017 04:05
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litany of gulps posted:Your tone implies a dismissal of nearly a full extra workday of hours. Is that what you mean to imply? That almost an entire full extra workday of hours is trivial?
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May 2, 2017 04:05
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twodot posted:It's trivial to my point that society is unwilling to employee secondary teachers for the length of time necessary to teach secondary students, according to certain posters in this thread. Your point is flawed at the core because you fail to recognize that independent study is a part of education at the secondary school level. Arguing your point is trivial because your point lacks merit.
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May 2, 2017 04:06
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litany of gulps posted:Your point is flawed at the core because you fail to recognize that independent study is a part of education at the secondary school level. twodot fucked around with this message at 04:12 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 04:10
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twodot posted:So your argument is that society is willing to employee teachers for as long as is necessary to education secondary students, but doesn't for what reasons? independent study can exist at schools. This is an argument that nobody has made except your own mind. Teachers are employed (in most states) at a fixed rate, regardless of hours worked. Independent study does exist in schools, but eats into guided practice time if it is never practiced outside of the set number of regular classroom hours. If you think this is a beneficial thing or somehow prepares secondary school students for the college experience, then your understanding of the reality of the situation is flawed to such a degree that I can only offer you pity.
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May 2, 2017 04:12
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litany of gulps posted:The assumption of busywork seems questionable on its face. Maybe they're being assigned reading so that during class time they can actually analyze and discuss. The automatic dismissal of any homework as being invalid I think is faulty. You can't just say that all work outside of class is harmful or excessive. Actual independent practice or study obviously has value, does it not? When misapplied, it can certainly be ineffective. The automatic assumption that it will be and can only be misapplied comes from where? I'm sure with certain kids who are having a hard time really getting material can benefit from extra worksheets. But again, those should be gone over with a tutor, not necessarily brought home. The problem with homework is that by and large it is done via run of the mill basic pop quiz style questions and work, and from my students I have seen packets of worksheets brought home in their backpacks. No kid needs to do 16 sheets of writing and letter practice at 7 yrs old to prove they know the material. I don't know about your district, but at least in ours, homework is being treated as a way to teach kids what they couldn't get to in class. What I am saying is that in a properly run education system, homework would not be necessary. We should be focusing on curriculum that is interdisciplinary and requires kids to use facts in multiple contexts, not just rattle off a bunch off answers. In your perspective, exactly how is homework beneficial to the student? How does it meet a goal and teach them? I'd prefer independent work took place in class or knowledge was practice project based, so the kid would actually be working towards something like in the real world.
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May 2, 2017 04:14
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Hastings posted:I'm sure with certain kids who are having a hard time really getting material can benefit from extra worksheets. But again, those should be gone over with a tutor, not necessarily brought home. The problem with homework is that by and large it is done via run of the mill basic pop quiz style questions and work, and from my students I have seen packets of worksheets brought home in their backpacks. No kid needs to do 16 sheets of writing and letter practice at 7 yrs old to prove they know the material. I don't know about your district, but at least in ours, homework is being treated as a way to teach kids what they couldn't get to in class. From the perspective of a literature student and English teacher, homework should primarily be reading with perhaps some writing questions to guide the student in their understanding of what they read. Every discipline has activities that are better suited to the individual in their own time rather than the limited amount of time available in class. Edit: I've been in schools where the majority of in-class teaching was packets of worksheets with run of the mill basic pop quiz style questions and work. The idea that this is acceptable as a means of education has no bearing on the validity of working outside of class. These are separate issues, and allowing one to poison the other is a detriment to everyone.
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May 2, 2017 04:20
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litany of gulps posted:From the perspective of a literature student and English teacher, homework should primarily be reading with perhaps some writing questions to guide the student in their understanding of what they read. Every discipline has activities that are better suited to the individual in their own time rather than the limited amount of time available in class. The problem however, is that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets. I'm glad you would take the time to think through writing portions and questions, but when educators have limited time to prep and grade as it is, homework tends to take the easy way out and is done in a way to quickly review and grade. It's designed to fit a perceived requirement, not for what is actually best for the students learning and retention style. Also, child development theory and psychology have had numerous studies show that children 13 and under learn through play. Giving kids outside of secondary education any homework quite frankly, seems ineffective when you consider that at that age range children need to fully interact with learning material. Time with family and playing might actually help them intentionally retain more effectively. I understand that our education model is designed to prepare students for college and to be fantastic little workers, but honestly, we should be more focused on actually teaching kids how to learn basic information and utilize it. I've seen plenty of college students and co workers who could write a paper phenomenal or were great at math. But the second you asked them to use that information in a new context they would flip out.
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May 2, 2017 04:29
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Hastings posted:The problem however, is that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets. I'm glad you would take the time to think through writing portions and questions, but when educators have limited time to prep and grade as it is, homework tends to take the easy way out and is done in a way to quickly review and grade. It's designed to fit a perceived requirement, not for what is actually best for the students learning and retention style. Also, child development theory and psychology have had numerous studies show that children 13 and under learn through play. Giving kids outside of secondary education any homework quite frankly, seems ineffective when you consider that at that age range children need to fully interact with learning material. Time with family and playing might actually help them intentionally retain more effectively. Can you cite a source that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets in language arts class? (Since you are disagreeing with a language arts teacher. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets/problem sets in math, for example.) What is your basis for saying that educators try to take the easy way out with homework? We discuss in our teacher thread a lot of alternate ways to handle workload and none of them are ever "just give them dumbass busywork worksheets so that you can grade them real quick and be done." Mostly because that actually creates more work for us. Hawkperson fucked around with this message at 04:41 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 04:38
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Hastings posted:The problem however, is that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets. I'm glad you would take the time to think through writing portions and questions, but when educators have limited time to prep and grade as it is, homework tends to take the easy way out and is done in a way to quickly review and grade. It's designed to fit a perceived requirement, not for what is actually best for the students learning and retention style. Also, child development theory and psychology have had numerous studies show that children 13 and under learn through play. Giving kids outside of secondary education any homework quite frankly, seems ineffective when you consider that at that age range children need to fully interact with learning material. Time with family and playing might actually help them intentionally retain more effectively. Let me start by saying - thank you. This thread from inception has been nothing but a poison cesspool of moronic and transparent trolls, with anyone that has any actual experience or understanding of anything basically just nodding at each other while the garbage try to provoke completely valueless arguments. I agree with you on this. Mandating set amounts of homework per night is completely ridiculous. The profession itself is stretched thin enough that taking the time to create thoughtful or relevant homework assignments can be a challenge. Frankly, I think that everyone of any age learns best while in a playful sort of mood. My most influential professor argued that play and fear were the best mental modes for learning. There are deep and serious flaws in the way we are doing things. Cutting out all homework, though, because most people gently caress it up? There are frankly just some things that should be done outside of class. If I'm teaching AP Language and have my students only read in-class, they're not getting what other students are getting. At that point, I'm sacrificing valuable class time to a dogmatic ban on homework. Is that the right way to teach? I don't think anyone would agree, any more than anyone here believes that 3rd graders should be doing hours of homework. These blanket statements serve no purpose and advance no real understanding of what it means to educate or how to best do it. You can't dismiss homework entirely, and everyone involved in this argument should recognize that - I suspect we all have been to college and know what is required.
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May 2, 2017 04:40
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Hawkgirl posted:I'm sure there is plenty of evidence that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets/problem sets in math, for example. What is your basis for saying that educators try to take the easy way out with homework? We discuss in our teacher thread a lot of alternate ways to handle workload and none of them are ever "just give them dumbass busywork worksheets so that you can grade them real quick and be done." Mostly because that actually creates more work for us. Even in a math class, is it inherently problematic to practice doing similar types of problems outside of class? How much of math mastery is pattern recognition? If you understand the principle and can solve problems of that pattern, the homework shouldn't be a serious burden. If you failed to grasp it from in-class instruction, then maybe some independent struggle will be beneficial. I don't even really assign much homework at all (as noted before, most of my students have jobs), but the complete dismissal of it seems indefensible at every level.
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May 2, 2017 04:45
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litany of gulps posted:Cutting out all homework, though, because most people gently caress it up? There are frankly just some things that should be done outside of class. If I'm teaching AP Language and have my students only read in-class, they're not getting what other students are getting. At that point, I'm sacrificing valuable class time to a dogmatic ban on homework. Is that the right way to teach? I don't think anyone would agree, any more than anyone here believes that 3rd graders should be doing hours of homework. Agreed. To me, class time is valuable for the following things: Guided practice (which can be, for example, doing your homework in class where the teacher can help you if you get stuck), group/social work, and, you know, learning poo poo. Getting introduced to the new concept that, if a kid were brilliant and driven, maybe they could pick up from google, but it's easier and faster and better curated if a teacher decides what is best to learn next. There's probably an upper limit to how much of this a student can realistically do in a single day without being exhausted, but I would say that our 45 minute to 1 hour daily class periods (or 1 hour 30 minutes every other day maybe) in secondary school is not that upper limit. Incorporating independent study into our school day without extending our school day would not result in good outcomes IMO, and as far as I can tell from google this is at least partially supported by research. Like I said, the research on homework seems to say that at grade 4 and above, nightly homework DOES increase achievement. edit: litany of gulps posted:Even in a math class, is it inherently problematic to practice doing similar types of problems outside of class? How much of math mastery is pattern recognition? If you understand the principle and can solve problems of that pattern, the homework shouldn't be a serious burden. If you failed to grasp it from in-class instruction, then maybe some independent struggle will be beneficial. No, I don't think it is. In fact, as far as I've read the research is pretty clear that in math of all subjects, homework is absolutely vital. You just can't learn a concept by doing it once or twice. You have to do it several, several times before it sticks. It would be like learning how to ride a bike by trying for ten minutes once every two weeks. I don't assign written homework in my class, ever. Then again, I am an elective teacher so my role is a bit more fluid than most teachers. But I expect my students to practice their instruments independently, outside of my class, because otherwise they suuuuuuuck. Hawkperson fucked around with this message at 04:52 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 04:47
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Right. Sacrificing class time for stuff that could be done independently honestly only hurts the weakest among us, I would argue. If I can tell my kids to read lines X-XX of Beowulf at home and write a response interpreting the social context of the time based on the reading, in class I can discuss that social context and they'll have had a genuine moment to think independently about it. Then they can compare their conclusion to other students' ideas or my own. If that reading is done in class, it's a lot of dead time. Sure, I'm an easier to use encyclopedia than Google. That isn't ultimately what I'm there for, though. In a math class, maybe the teacher being able to see how you struggled with the homework problems and the pattern of your results is more valuable than them watching you struggle in real time. Maybe in your struggles you finally understood how it all worked, without someone spoon feeding you answers. Learning is complicated. There's an individual portion to it, and that individual portion may be the most important portion. If we cut that out of the educational system because it hasn't been implemented well, but the most highly educated of us get that aspect anyway from our parents and upbringing (who understand the system), then who are we really destroying by doing this?
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May 2, 2017 05:00
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And you know, the rich white private school next door - their teachers have 3 periods off out of 7 each day, and their kids have study hall/free periods during the day. There are 15 kids per class. Perhaps because a teacher with time off during the day to complete the grading and planning and calling parents and tutoring is a better teacher, and perhaps because the student that can complete their independent work during the day outside of regular class time is a better student. You have to pay some 8 thousand dollars a semester for that, though. The regular kids get teachers with no breaks, three times as many students total, and the students themselves don't get a break during the day - to the point where it's tough to go to the bathroom and still get to class on time. The idea that we even have a coherent education system is a joke. We have multiple systems, depending on how much money you have. The ones with money get the closest thing to a collegiate experience, while everyone else gets a seriously watered down version of what should be. No wonder the regular kids suffer culture shock and drop out when they face the actual college system. No wonder good teachers don't want to work in public schools.
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May 2, 2017 05:09
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Hawkgirl posted:Can you cite a source that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets in language arts class? (Since you are disagreeing with a language arts teacher. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence that homework is almost never anything other than worksheets/problem sets in math, for example.) What is your basis for saying that educators try to take the easy way out with homework? We discuss in our teacher thread a lot of alternate ways to handle workload and none of them are ever "just give them dumbass busywork worksheets so that you can grade them real quick and be done." Mostly because that actually creates more work for us. I've seen of course the usual diorama or presentation for large language arts projects, but I have seen language arts in two separate states: IL and MN. And in those school districts, having helped several students with their work, it was always worksheets. Sometimes they cut their sheets into little books or vocab card, but it was always a paper based assignment. Now, I admit I have not done deep searching on the subject this evening (apologies, I am tired) but I have worked in curriculum development and when I typed up "non-worksheet based language arts homework" on Google, all that came back was worksheet ideas. Even on Pinterest and Education.com, it is pretty much just worksheets. I think this is because in general, in suffering districts, it is just easier to take what is most efficient and is known to work. If you know some awesome, interdisciplinary homework options I am more than happy to hear them. I just know that as a parent and an educator, and someone in administration, I have seen a general trend within a variety of school systems. There tends to be a default.
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May 2, 2017 05:49
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Well, and I should be fair/clear too that I am not a language arts teacher so I'd probably do a lovely job of assigning homework for that class too. That said, thinking on what the language arts teachers assign for homework at my middle school -- there are reading logs, the kids write essays or do tasks relating to writing an essay (brainstorms or whatever), and there is an "article of the week." The article of the week IS a worksheet/packet, with a one page, generally 4-6 paragraph article, with critical thinking questions - I think 8? As far as I know, the language arts teachers don't assign homework out of those three options, only one of which is a worksheet. I'm curious now so I'll be sure to ask some of my students tomorrow to be sure. Oooh maybe they do vocab stuff, but I don't think it's on a worksheet? I think they just get word lists they have to study. There's definitely teachers at my school that do cool awesome project-based homework assignments, like hey you read this play now write your own play about the play or make a speech about this play or write a musical composition about this play (also write a short paragraph on how it matches up with the play) or make up your own way to show you read the play and understand it. I teach in a poorass district and we are doing more and more professional development on good teaching techniques and student engagement. The last one I went to was on exactly this sort of homework assignment plan, where students get more of a voice and choice in what they learn and how they show mastery in it. Even before that I didn't see much of a default "just give them worksheets" but then again I do teach in California. Yeah we've got some bad situations out here but on the whole we teachers, and our students, are a lot better off than equivalent socioeconomic areas in other parts of the US.
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May 2, 2017 06:09
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IDK about homework, but my impression looking back at my schooling is that a lot of our lecture time was a waste. Like...there is probably a more efficient way to teach some subjects than to have someone stand in front of a class and talk. Maybe homework wouldn't be such a problem if students could reclaim 3 hours out of the school day.
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May 2, 2017 11:42
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Teachers have really strong unions and probably the best nominal work hours of any profession. But then an expectation to do 50% or more of their work "on their own time" and to spend a ton of their own money on work. And it always feels like attitudes on homework by teachers is informed by teacher's own really weird work situation. Like if teaching somehow in the future settled on being an 8 hour a day and then go home job I bet attitudes on homework would quickly mirror that idea. Like we have the profession with the most acceptance of take home work deciding how much take home work is good.
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May 2, 2017 12:35
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I think part of the problem too is that, in university, it's debatable how much work you have to do "per night," because you tend to have a few big projects, and you know, by reading the syllabus, exactly when they'll be due, so it's your responsibility to budget your time in whatever way you see fit in order to fulfill your responsibilities. Reading and practice, of the sort you might get in a math course, are your own responsibility and in general are not checked for completion -- you do as much or as little as you need to grasp the material and feel comfortable on the test. Thus, taking any single day off or focusing on something else for a while is not penalized. This is typically very different from the case at the middle and high school levels, where small assignments are assigned and checked for completion, so students have less flexibility in budgeting their time, and ultimately they don't learn about time management because everything is so structured. I may have averaged three hours per day of work in university (although, frankly, that seems a bit high unless you count time spent reading), but there were plenty of days I didn't do anything in exchange for working on a project six hours straight at some other time. Also, you only spend 3 hours per week actually in class for any given class in university, whereas at the high school level, you basically show up at 8 and you're always doing something until 3 or 3:30, every day. Saying that middle- and high-school students need 3 hours of structured homework per night to prepare them for university, or for life in general, is asinine.
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May 2, 2017 13:01
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Here's some actual data on the benefits of homework http://time.com/4466390/homework-debate-research/
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May 2, 2017 16:22
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I think this is the article you all are looking for regarding elementary school level homework: The research is clear, let’s ban elementary homework quote:For elementary-aged children, research suggests that studying in class gets superior learning results, while extra schoolwork at home is just . . . extra work. Even in middle school, the relationship between homework and academic success is minimal at best. By the time kids reach high school, homework provides academic benefit, but only in moderation. More than two hours per night is the limit. After that amount, the benefits taper off. “The research is very clear,” agrees Etta Kralovec, education professor at the University of Arizona. “There’s no benefit at the elementary school level.”
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May 2, 2017 16:26
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Oracle posted:I think this is the article you all are looking for regarding elementary school level homework: The research is clear, let’s ban elementary homework Thank you. Literally every school of child development agrees that play is necessary to learning at that age, and kids do not have the brain growth or stamina required for needless repetitive exercises. I think many educators have so much busy work thrust on them that they become conditioned to believe this is normal, so they expect it out of everyone else. We've build a system predicated on more practice being better, not necessarily magnifying focus of material.
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May 2, 2017 16:57
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wateroverfire posted:IDK about homework, but my impression looking back at my schooling is that a lot of our lecture time was a waste. Like...there is probably a more efficient way to teach some subjects than to have someone stand in front of a class and talk. Maybe homework wouldn't be such a problem if students could reclaim 3 hours out of the school day. Yes, this is the basis of a lot of research in education right now. We are strongly discouraged from lecture-style classes.
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May 2, 2017 17:17
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I had heard that the 'new thing' being suggested was to have homework time actually be during school and learning of new material was to happen at home to encourage exploration and discovery of new things, which is inherently more interesting than rote application of said things, then if they had issues with what they learned they could bring it to school and ask. I don't remember where though, probably some buzzword like 'student led learning.'
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May 2, 2017 19:08
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Oracle posted:I had heard that the 'new thing' being suggested was to have homework time actually be during school and learning of new material was to happen at home to encourage exploration and discovery of new things, which is inherently more interesting than rote application of said things, then if they had issues with what they learned they could bring it to school and ask. I don't remember where though, probably some buzzword like 'student led learning.' Where I'm from they call it "flipping the classroom" and I've heard mixed reviews. It can be very effective in certain subjects, provided the teacher has the planning time in advance to make the video lectures/podcasts/assigned readings ahead of time. It doesn't translate well for all subjects though, and it breaks down if the kids don't all have internet access at home and/or the school doesn't have the tech infrastructure to maintain devices for everyone. You also still need the kid to actually do the assigned task, which is never a given, even if it's something like "watch this 15 minute video and come to class prepared to discuss it." But at the same time, if we are talking about reducing the amount of time kids are spending on school stuff outside of school, it actually does the opposite in most cases. It almost ensures that students will have 15-20 minutes worth of homework to do in each subject each night. Just like with other deliver methods, it will not always be used most effectively by teachers in the field. Some just use it as an excuse to pile on even more homework assignments that they otherwise would have scrapped for lack of time. Some teachers I know also worry that, taken to it's logical conclusion, this idea is another way to de-professionalize teaching, making teachers little more than tutors. It takes a huge investment of time up front by the teacher to create the course, and they may or may not have any control over how the school system uses that content.
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May 2, 2017 21:46
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Yep, that's a thing too! I forget what it's called too, but I don't think it's going to gain much traction. It's another thing that services rich kids with secure home lives and makes poor kids with somewhat more unstable lives fall far behind. It's kind of stupid IMO to base education policy and pedagogy decisions on the assumption that kids have stable home lives and financial and emotional support. Because that's just not how things are. It goes back to the base problem that we try to solve problems of poverty through education and nothing else. But education needs to be a part of helping people out of poverty, and we need to make sure that whatever newfangled research-supported thing we pick actually helps as many students as possible, not just the ones it's easiest to help. Edit: ^^ that too, well said. Hawkperson fucked around with this message at 21:48 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 21:45
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Hawkgirl posted:Yes, this is the basis of a lot of research in education right now. We are strongly discouraged from lecture-style classes. Jacques Barzun, writing in the 40s: "If some few years ago I had listed lectures as a legitimate mode of teaching, I should have been set down by my progressive friends as an old mossback corrupted by university practice. But now several of the progressive colleges have officially restored lecturing - Bennington notably - and I suspect that unofficially they were unable at any time to do altogether without it. Lecturing comes so natural to mankind that it is hard to stop it by edict. It simply turns into bootleg form." He goes on speak about the advantages and disadvantages of lecture and how it has be to varied with other strategies, but he quotes a student at one school who said: "At F_____ (a progressive school) the teachers die young; at J______ (a nonprogressive one) the students hang themselves; that seems to be the basic difference between old-fashioned and Progressive Education."
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May 3, 2017 00:40
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Teachers have really strong unions and probably the best nominal work hours of any profession. But then an expectation to do 50% or more of their work "on their own time" and to spend a ton of their own money on work. And it always feels like attitudes on homework by teachers is informed by teacher's own really weird work situation. Like if teaching somehow in the future settled on being an 8 hour a day and then go home job I bet attitudes on homework would quickly mirror that idea. First off... gently caress you. You're exactly part of the problem when it comes to the education system right now. "omg, teachers have it sooo easy, lol" Get bent is what I say. Best nominal hours? Have you ever actually taught a class in your life? Imagine going the majority of the day where you can't even take a bathroom break because you can't leave the room or the kids alone. Imagine coming in early to prep and leaving late to grade and using your prep for meetings and whatever else you can do so you don't have to take it home until 10pm each night. Imagine a profession where you have to keep going back year after year for additional education just to keep your job and your work doesn't pay for the costs but you do out of your own pocket. Imagine having to buy all your supplies out of your own pocket because the district doesn't have the funds for it. Anyone who wants to say teaching in the US is a cush job can go suck a dick. The only teachers in the US that have it good are the ones in really well off public and private schools where they can actually afford poo poo. It pisses me off to no end, the number of people who have ZERO loving CLUE what it's actually like to teach day after day...dealing with whiney overmedicated, phone addicted, bitchy kids who are only looking for the path of least resistance and their loving clueless enabling parents who think they know what teachers are supposed to be doing when they've never taught a day in their life...but OH NO! I know MY kid! Bullshit...your kid acts completely differently around you and when you aren't there and I wish everyday I could just film them and show it to you like an episode of cops so you could see the actual reality. So again, gently caress you.  ...that being said, I think a lot of the reality regarding the problem is that we have completely removed any sort of accountability/responsibility from students and parents in the educational system. Teachers are expected to be miracle workers and 100% responsible for a lifetime of setbacks, poverty, etc when in reality many times we are busting our asses daily trying to make even the smallest impact for some of these kids. I would love to have a flipped classroom design for my social studies classes...but I can't get the kids to do the basic prep work needed in order for that to work out. I've been working at a charter school the last three years where we started out completely 100% project based on the student interests...for the majority of kids, nothing got done. If students don't have an innate drive to want to pursue educational projects, even with staff there helping and guiding them...your only alternative is a more traditional model. We tried scaffolding, creating pre-made projects that were just plug and play, even walking groups through a single project and it was like pulling teeth to just get the smallest amount of work from students even when they had all that choice. Most just choose to opt-out and not do anything. We had a few exceptions, but by far the majority were failing badly. Then we stated some more traditional teaching to get them caught up on credits and now our scores are going up and kids are getting closer to meeting credits for the year. Are they as happy about it? No of course not...we're actually forcing them to do more work now which in their eyes is horrible because something is actually being expected of them. The learned helplessness, lack of coping skills, lack of social skills, reliance on technology, and enabling parents/society are killing US education and making it's impossible for teachers to make progress in a lot of schools right now. I teach 7-12th grade right now and in my classes, they have 1 assignment per WEEK on average and I have trouble getting that from them. They can use their notes on the tests and yet average like 70% at best. In my classes, if you turn in all the work...even it's not all the best, you'll probably still pass and I have kids fail even that because they can't be bothered to turn it in despite in class time, everything being accessible on drive 24/7, my being available throughout the day, and basically doing everything except moving the pencil myself. I'm extremely lenient on grading and even accept work from the whole block all the way up to the last day. I modify heavily for SpEd students on top of all of that. Yet, I still get people like you who think I'm not doing enough... Yeah....teachers are the ones at fault here 
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May 3, 2017 02:26
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Basically, all education's problems are blamed on teachers, even though they are only a single (obviously important) part in an extremely complex system. At the same time, most high level decisions about education are not made by those with any sort of expertise, and often those that know most about teaching have the least say in it. One of the big problems is that everyone has been to school and been a student, and so thinks they have some sort of special insight into the entire education system based on their single anecdotal experience. Many people are also completely unaware of changes to teaching practices or schools in the past decade, and know so little about teaching that they can't even conceive of why it would be difficult.
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May 3, 2017 02:38
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Oxphocker posted:
Just want to say I would actually be willing to meet halfway and be okay with one assignment a week. If that is your protocol, that is awesome and shows just how different school systems are because IL and MN still adhere to daily work in virtually all schooling options. It's really to see a lack of motivation in your students though, because children really need to be learning self motivation. Having an intrinsic understanding of rewards is vital.
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May 3, 2017 02:42
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