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Do any of you have any experience with the Old Catholics (Utrecht Union)? I've been looking for a church for a year now and I think they may be cool but I don't know a lot about them
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May 1, 2017 11:08
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Last I heard( which is admittedly very little and long ago), they were pr cool dudes with regards to women and minorities. Wikipedia says they ordained their first woman priest in 1994.
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May 1, 2017 18:13
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Depends wildly on the local church. The Old Catholic seminary near me is full of ultraconservative Jansenists, for example.
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May 1, 2017 19:58
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There are still Jansenists in the wild!? Woah 
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May 1, 2017 20:48
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The Phlegmatist posted:Depends wildly on the local church. The Old Catholic seminary near me is full of ultraconservative Jansenists, for example. Whoah, there's something I didn't know before. Wikipedia seems to say that they have similarities to Calvinists? I maight be wrong though. Tias posted:Last I heard( which is admittedly very little and long ago), they were pr cool dudes with regards to women and minorities. Wikipedia says they ordained their first woman priest in 1994. Yeah, this is what I heard as well - the ones here are in full communion with the Anglican church. They're a small group and meet at weird times, though, so it'll be a while before I can drop in there.
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May 1, 2017 20:57
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Tias posted:Happy first of may liturgigoons. Spring has come, Joseph the Worker protect you, and may the powers above turn away the police <3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO79DhItC_c
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May 1, 2017 21:07
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happyphage posted:Yeah, this is what I heard as well - the ones here are in full communion with the Anglican church. They're a small group and meet at weird times, though, so it'll be a while before I can drop in there. I believe all of the Old Catholics are in full communion with the Anglicans; that's critical for some of the Anglicans who believe that ordination is a sacrament, because an Old Catholic bishop can potentially trace his (or her (probably)) lineage to the apostles, and thus if an Old Catholic bishop participated in your bishop's ordainer's ordainer's ordination, your bishop can too. (Some Anglicans do not believe ordination is a sacrament, so it's irrelevant to them; some do but don't believe the Old Catholic links are important; some believe both.)
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May 2, 2017 01:39
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System Metternich posted:There are still Jansenists in the wild!? Woah Hell yeah. They're actually kind of a schism off of the Old Catholics, being neither in communion with Rome or Utrecht. But they love the pope, so they're not sedes. And they agree with the condemnation of Jansenism because, you see, it referred only to the erroneous practice of certain quasi-monastic activities such as fasting from the Eucharist for a period of months and certainly did not have anything to do with Calvinist soteriology. They are fascinating to talk to.
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May 2, 2017 02:38
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The Phlegmatist posted:Hell yeah. They're actually kind of a schism off of the Old Catholics, being neither in communion with Rome or Utrecht. But they love the pope, so they're not sedes. And they agree with the condemnation of Jansenism because, you see, it referred only to the erroneous practice of certain quasi-monastic activities such as fasting from the Eucharist for a period of months and certainly did not have anything to do with Calvinist soteriology.
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May 2, 2017 04:15
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https://twitter.com/Slahoy/status/859285532953767936 🤔🤔🤔 (I'm not giving this any views, does anybody know what  grand libertarian legacy he's talking about?)
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May 2, 2017 15:24
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Pellisworth posted:It's sort of like asking if Mormons are Christian. Both Mormons and JWs have beliefs that are far outside of little-o orthodox Christianity but they consider themselves Christians and it's not our place to judge Mormons, at the very least, believe in the divinity of Jesus, even if their understanding of Godhead is not exactly in line with the trinitarian formula. Mormons hang up on the "one in being with the Father" bit as they see them as two distinct beings (and the Holy Spirit as yet a third), but they at least acknowledge that Jesus can be accurately referred to as "God." Their whole "deep doctrine" however isn't weird as such, it's just not familiar to liturgical Christianity as it likes to resolve a lot of things through common sense folksy answers. Like, rather than wrestling with the nature of God they just went "well, if Jesus is the son of God, and we're all children of God, and God is our Father in Heaven, there must be a Mother in heaven too! Seems legit, problem solved, stupid degenerate Christians."
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May 2, 2017 15:54
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zonohedron posted:I believe all of the Old Catholics are in full communion with the Anglicans; that's critical for some of the Anglicans who believe that ordination is a sacrament, because an Old Catholic bishop can potentially trace his (or her (probably)) lineage to the apostles, and thus if an Old Catholic bishop participated in your bishop's ordainer's ordainer's ordination, your bishop can too. (Some Anglicans do not believe ordination is a sacrament, so it's irrelevant to them; some do but don't believe the Old Catholic links are important; some believe both.) This is 100% irrelevant, because all lawfully and truly ordained bishops serving in the Anglican tradition can trace their succession to the Apostles. The English church didn't just sprout up from the ground or only begin to claim apostolic succession after full communion with the Old Catholics was established in the 19th century. The Roman definition in the 19th century on the supposed defectiveness of succession among Anglicans relates to the same kind of political motivations that lead to so much fighting within the Church and the Vatican archives actually has the report (supposedly) that led to that declaration of Anglican orders being null and void in which the entire report concludes the orders are valid and succession is valid but then argues that it can be declared invalid on the basis of some aspect of the Ordinal being insufficient (I've forgotten off the top of my head). This thread should like that, though: Anglican orders were effectively declared invalid by liturgy queens.
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May 2, 2017 16:32
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Didn't the Anglican clergy who joined the Anglican Ordinariate get kinda pissed off because we wanted to re-ordain them?HEY GAIL posted:my god, it's like a coelocanth. where are these precious jewels? do they have a website These guys "we're not jansenists because those guys are heretics but did you know cornelius jansen did nothing wrong and also gently caress you jesuits"
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May 2, 2017 21:39
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The Phlegmatist posted:Didn't the Anglican clergy who joined the Anglican Ordinariate get kinda pissed off because we wanted to re-ordain them? That's hilarious, they never stopped carrying the same grudges their forebears developed in the 17th and 18th centuries Also I cannot recommend entering any church affiliated with them because these guys were pretty much the anti-baroque of their time (well, as anti-baroque as Catholics could be) and it doesn't read like that has changed since then, a pity. The Baroque is great, why you gotta be hating?  As an aside: I just leafed again through Friedrich Nicolai's Beschreibung einer Reise durch Deutschland und die Schweiz (written in 1781, published in 12 volumes 1783-1796) and I can only recommend it to everybody itt who can read German and is interested in Baroque Catholicism. Nicolai is hilarious, he was Protestant to the core and doesn't miss a single opportunity to poo poo on the Catholics, it's great. "The first [statute book of a Viennese confraternity] was written in a time of proper Catholic German, when grammatical correctness and coherent sentences were known as Lutheran German  " is my favourite so far, but I'm sure there are even greater burns hidden in those volumes
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May 2, 2017 23:11
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System Metternich posted:they never stopped carrying the same grudges their forebears developed in the 17th and 18th centuries 
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May 2, 2017 23:56
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my favorite part was pretty early into itquote:But the Jesuit Order has also produced a number of “misfires” like political activists Daniel Berrigan and Fernando Cardenal, and Modernist theologians like George Tyrrell, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and Hans Urs von Balthasar. thanks irrelevant florida jansenists for giving us a who's who of actual good theologians
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May 3, 2017 00:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:my favorite part was pretty early into it They forgot Uncle Karl.
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May 3, 2017 00:37
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The Phlegmatist posted:thanks irrelevant florida jansenists for giving us a who's who of actual good theologians lol imagine thinking von balthasar was bad at theology
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May 3, 2017 01:17
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Thirteen Orphans posted:They forgot Uncle Karl. If he even was a Christian he must've been an anonymous one! *laughs Jansenistly* Bel_Canto posted:lol imagine thinking von balthasar was bad at theology I dunno why they would lump Tyrrell into the same category as von Balthasar anyway. That's like saying Schleiermacher and Barth were totally in the same milieu. And that milieu is "it happened post-Darwin so it was bad and also modernist and it sucked, the end." e: I've been researching CCM for an article. look an actual Chick Tract except I'm p. sure Jack Chick would say this music is satanic The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 03:24 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 01:50
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The Phlegmatist posted:Didn't the Anglican clergy who joined the Anglican Ordinariate get kinda pissed off because we wanted to re-ordain them? No, no. It's "if Jansenius had written any of the things that he was condemned for, he would have been a heretic. The problem is that Jansenius didn't write those things, and the condemnation was based on a slanted reading. Thus Jansenius did nothing wrong, but the "Jansenists" that were condemned were indeed bad, though they probably never existed."
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May 3, 2017 04:44
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My diocese just sent me and some colleagues to Pakisatan for a Christian young adults conference and it was amazing. Trip report incoming when I learn to sleep again. Their most vocal progressive bishop is retiring and it's a safe bet that things will swing more conservative. So, you know, pray for that. The service was largely Anglican, and the denomination I was attending, the United Church of Pakistan, was formed by a merger of Anglicans, United Methodists, Evangelical Lutherans, and Scottish Presbetyrians. Also, Christians there can get a pass card to buy alcohol legally. They often upcharge it and sell it to Muslims. We are the hooch peddlars of Pakistan. Rejoice.
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May 4, 2017 05:24
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WerrWaaa posted:Also, Christians there can get a pass card to buy alcohol legally. They often upcharge it and sell it to Muslims. We are the hooch peddlars of Pakistan. Rejoice. human beings own
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May 4, 2017 05:32
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HEY GAIL posted:i spent a week in israel and a dude there told me that jews often buy meat from muslims under the table because non kosher meat tastes better isn't halal basically the same thing as kosher though? it would make more sense if it was Christians selling meat to Jews, both halal and kosher require the throat of the animal to be sliced and completely drained of blood
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May 4, 2017 05:38
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Pellisworth posted:isn't halal basically the same thing as kosher though? Maybe they're buying camel meat. But apparently proper kosher meat requires certain kinds of fat to be cut off, and I imagine some people would prefer the meat with the fat. Le Cochon de Gaza is a fun movie about some guy in Gaza who finds a pig, and tries to get rid of it by selling it to Israelis, in the process making friends with both the pig and the Israelis. And that's all I know about meat in Israel. 
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May 4, 2017 05:48
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Pellisworth posted:isn't halal basically the same thing as kosher though?
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May 4, 2017 05:50
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pidan posted:Le Cochon de Gaza is a fun movie about some guy in Gaza who finds a pig, and tries to get rid of it by selling it to Israelis, in the process making friends with both the pig and the Israelis.[/timg] La Cochonne de Gaza isn't the same film, be warned. HEY GAIL posted:kosher meat is salted (the salt is rinsed off before you package and sell it), halal meat is not Yeah, kosher meat is generally...not good. The koshering process where it's left salted for an hour or so in order to draw all the blood out of the meat makes it tough and dry. I'm not surprised they go for the halal stuff.
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May 4, 2017 21:47
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The Phlegmatist posted:Yeah, kosher meat is generally...not good. The koshering process where it's left salted for an hour or so in order to draw all the blood out of the meat makes it tough and dry. I'm not surprised they go for the halal stuff. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Salting meat ahead of time makes it tenderer. I don't fully understand the mechanism, but Harold McGee goes into some detail on this. It's something to do with altering the shape of the proteins in the connective tissue. Most likely the problem with kosher meat is the removal of fat.
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May 5, 2017 10:24
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an involved explanation for why some doctors and police officers have noted people getting weird around the full moon, from the Orthodox pov http://orthodoxlife.org/spiritual-discipline/moon-madness-or-how-the-demons-deceive-us/ it's demons, attempting to convince us that the moon is evil so we think some part of the natural world is evil, which it is not, since all natural things come from God. Do not fear the moon. of course, demons is the orthodox explanation for a lot of random things that go wrong in life.
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May 8, 2017 06:31
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The power of the full moon is manifesting desires, it's a time where grandmother takes the weak willed for a wild ride. Don't have to mix demons into it, really.
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May 8, 2017 06:38
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HEY GAIL posted:it's demons, attempting to convince us that the moon is evil so we think some part of the natural world is evil, which it is not, since all natural things come from God. Do not fear the moon. Makes sense to me. A person's mind may be beset by all manners of invisible fears, lies, and temptations that could serve no one except an enemy of all humanity.
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May 8, 2017 08:04
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mara gave me an anxiety disorder
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May 8, 2017 08:15
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Caufman posted:Makes sense to me.
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May 8, 2017 08:21
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HEY GAIL posted:and the moon, as we all know, is actually Good You better not be ironic. As the blackfoot say, 'don't make faces of grandmother, she'll make faces of you".
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May 8, 2017 08:22
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Tias posted:You better not be ironic. As the blackfoot say, 'don't make faces of grandmother, she'll make faces of you".
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May 8, 2017 08:23
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HEY GAIL posted:i'm not being ironic. everything that god created is good, and if we believe otherwise it's probably demons again. at least according to that blog post. If everything God creates is good, and demons are bad, who creates the demons?
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May 8, 2017 08:28
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Tias posted:You better not be ironic. As the blackfoot say, 'don't make faces of grandmother, she'll make faces of you". Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean when you say "grandmother"? Curious if you're talking about a general earth mother thing or the moon in specific
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May 8, 2017 08:37
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pidan posted:If everything God creates is good, and demons are bad, who creates the demons? angels
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May 8, 2017 08:40
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HEY GAIL posted:and the moon, as we all know, is actually Good Surely it wouldn't be there if it were Bad! pidan posted:If everything God creates is good, and demons are bad, who creates the demons? As I understand the sacred story of the Old Tee, although God YHWH is almighty, he maintains a host of spiritual servants called angels. Some of these angels become (or possibly always were? I'm not sure; celestial kairos time is hard to measure) suspicious of the Father's omnipotence and benevolence and become rebellious. They especially like to tempt humans into believing and doing things they know is not good but evil, and they achieve this by being very persuasive. At least one interpretation I've heard from a couple of (self-professed, at least) Christians for why an almighty creator would permit this little rebellion to play out goes like this: God lets the rebels do their thing because he knows that ultimately they will fail. And they will fail in such a way that Lord Yahweh's rule will be totally legitimized, like it will be clearer than glass how God is, was, and always will be what's right and good. Also, anyone who has died will come back and never die or have cause to be sad again. A couple of things I don't know: I don't know if that interpretation is God-breathed, but I like it for its cleverness. Two, I don't know if I am living in a myth, unlike the characters in those sacred stories who must surely be. I make a leap of faith to believe and act as if I am a part of a sacred story, even as I experience reality mundanely and in chronos time. But even if you don't make that leap of faith, I hope this at least clarifies why those Orthodox priest and I are more likely to call a fear of the Moon demonic rather than calling the Moon demonic. It's not the Moon that's bad; it's an irrational, unhelpful, purposeless fear of the Moon that's the real problem, at least in that particular scenario. Caufman fucked around with this message at 09:29 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 08:52
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mythomanic posted:Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean when you say "grandmother"? Curious if you're talking about a general earth mother thing or the moon in specific The moon in specific. In the native american traditions where I am being taught, earth is the mother and the sky/great spirit is the father, but a lot of the more higher venerated stuff is called grandmother/father, like fire, the peyote cactus, the moon etc.
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May 8, 2017 09:02
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Nuke the Moon is the policy that I would always vote for.
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May 8, 2017 09:40
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