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HOTLANTA MAN posted:Well he's grabbing Ann or demanding to see her nude basically every chance he gets He did that once and given how thoroughly he's struck by the beauty of lobsters a couple months later I might actually believe he really did just want to make art. Hell, he's even the only one who doesn't look down Ann's shirt in the catbus-to-the-pyramid scene. Like it's definitely hosed up that he pressured her to pose nude but I think the dude just straight-up doesn't get why that's hosed up because he doesn't make the connection to sex at all.
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May 2, 2017 21:45
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Well then he sucks for liking art. Get a real job bub.
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May 2, 2017 21:47
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My good opinion is that "Take off all your clothes and let me paint you naked or I'm having your friends arrested on bogus charges" is a really bad way to introduce a character who's supposed to be likeable. Especially with how much it's played for comedy right after Ann just got away from one of her teachers trying to pressure her into sex. They should've found some other excuse for the deadline. I like Yusuke in the rest of the game, but that was Bad.
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May 2, 2017 21:47
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 me looking at all your bad posts
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May 2, 2017 21:47
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Harrow posted:He did that once and given how thoroughly he's struck by the beauty of lobsters a couple months later I might actually believe he really did just want to make art. Hell, he's even the only one who doesn't look down Ann's shirt in the catbus-to-the-pyramid scene. Also I think there's some dialogue in a group chat if you don't go through Madarame's palace right away where the group figures that Yusuke made that demand as a bluff to get them out of Madarame's house, not at all expecting them to take him up on that later.
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May 2, 2017 21:48
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Yeah, no argument that was bad. Getting to know Yusuke shows that he probably wasn't thinking about sex at all and honestly never comes to recognize that he was being a huge rear end in a top hat. Something like that might've gone over better if they managed to establish beforehand that Yusuke would be just as happy to look at lobsters as Ann or something.ChaosArgate posted:Also I think there's some dialogue in a group chat if you don't go through Madarame's palace right away where the group figures that Yusuke made that demand as a bluff to get them out of Madarame's house, not at all expecting them to take him up on that later. Yeah, that's possible, too, though it's another thing that seems less plausible when you get to know Yusuke better. I don't know if he's quite guileful enough to consider bluffing an option. He turns out to be really empathetic, but I'm not sure he's the kind of person who'd try to bluff his way out of a situation.
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May 2, 2017 21:50
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ChaosArgate posted:Also I think there's some dialogue in a group chat if you don't go through Madarame's palace right away where the group figures that Yusuke made that demand as a bluff to get them out of Madarame's house, not at all expecting them to take him up on that later. That he even implies it whether he's bluffing or not is kind of hosed up IMO for a character we're ostensibly supposed to like
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May 2, 2017 21:49
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Yusuke also enjoys looking at pyramids.
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May 2, 2017 21:50
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The way Yusuke is introduced is bad. But calling Yusuke a future rapist is way more bad and also loving stupid.
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May 2, 2017 22:10
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The mincing sexual predator stereotypes are bad
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May 2, 2017 22:15
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Bogart posted:
please acknowledge this.
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May 2, 2017 22:19
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On the one hand, it's hosed up that he asked her to pose nude after she just got done dealing with that poo poo Kamoshida put her and Shiho through. On the other hand, it's not like he had any knowledge about those incidents, and nobody bothered to bring it up to him as to why his request was making her uncomfortable beyond "she probably doesn't like the idea of getting naked in front of someone she's just met". Blackmailing her into doing it in exchange for not calling the police on Akira and Ryuji was pretty hosed up, though, no excuse on that one.
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May 2, 2017 22:20
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That's how strong friendships tend to start: they try to blackmail you into doing something. Was kind of the thing I really didn't like with some of the team members. First impressions of them when they finally interact with your and your buds are really bad.
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May 2, 2017 22:22
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Bogart posted:
only needs the cap
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May 2, 2017 22:23
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I like Yusuke, and he seems to get better, but yeah, that was a very lovely thing to do, even if he didn't actually have any intentions beyond drawing her. And it's also kind of lovely that Ryuji and MC actually pressure Ann into agreeing, those two knowing very well Ann just finished dealing with someone pushing her into intimate situations she's not comfortable with. Left a bit of a bad taste in my moth at the moment itself. Huh... if you miss the deadline without ever getting to the middle part where Madarame is the one threatening to sue you, that does lead to a game over right? Of course, the in medias res thing it doesn't mean Yusuke actually did it, it just means MC blacks out because of the drugs, but that deadline is there. It's definitely a thing I wish they handled differently. And yeah, those two mincing stereotypes are not something I'm happy with either.
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May 2, 2017 22:24
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Jimbot posted:That's how strong friendships tend to start: they try to blackmail you into doing something. Shogeton posted:Huh... if you miss the deadline without ever getting to the middle part where Madarame is the one threatening to sue you, that does lead to a game over right?
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May 2, 2017 22:27
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Bogart posted:please acknowledge this. 
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May 2, 2017 22:28
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Bogart posted:
I value it, Bogart Also re: Yusuke, several of the Phantom Thieves have serious personality flaws especially before joining the party, and Yusuke's is that he's so obsessed with art and aesthetics that he doesn't care much about actual people (other than Madarame, because Madarame is his artistic mentor). Everybody loves Makoto, but when she's introduced she's basically the lowest level goon in the game's conspiracy; she's willing to rat out the Phantom Thieves - which would effectively destroy the lives of four other teens - to protect her own prospects and because adults in positions of authority tell her to.
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May 2, 2017 22:28
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Yusuke blackmails you. Makoto blackmails you. Futaba blackmails you. Akechi blackmails you. Guess who is the only one who doesn't blackmail you 
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May 2, 2017 22:31
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There is an endless rabbit hole of bad writing in the game with regards to gender and sexuality made even more awkward by cross-cultural conventions ("Is this okay in Japan?" vs. "actually this isn't okay anywhere") and Yusuke constantly wanting to see Ann naked for art reasons being a laugh-line and source of hijinks despite her having just overcome a sexual predator at her school is practically par for the course. I didn't really play Persona 4 much, although I absorbed most of it through friends and gaming pop culture, and things seem a little better this time, but it's definitely a slow trend and one of the reasons I don't usually go in for a lot of Japanese stuff. We're still at the point where letting the player choose a female main character would be a big step.
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May 2, 2017 22:32
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yusuke blackmails you. She's proxy to a very strongly-worded letter of cat grievances
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May 2, 2017 22:35
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wizard on a water slide posted:I value it, Bogart Makoto is most def also blackmailing, but it's a good deal less hosed up. For one, rather than the 'tresspassing' thing, she is threatening to reveal something that is actually illegal and morally shady, and the thing she is demanding of them is not only a thing that is not about helping herself, but also is something to show why she SHOULDN'T turn them in. Misguided, rather than selfish, though probably not 100% purely selfless, since she does like her commendation for a good college and all. But yeah, it is a major flaw of Yusuke that when he's in art-time, he doesn't really look at other people's feelings. (see also him just deciding to draw the 'couple' in the boat without asking them, then yelling at them to be quiet) But it would have good to maybe have Yusuke at some point give an apology about it? And maybe Ryuji and Main Character showing a little bit more understanding and space towards Ann rather than pressuring her into it? I guess Ryuji is Ryuji, but I'd like for the main character to have at least been able to back up and let her make the choice, then Ann go 'oh crap, you're under probation right? Ugh... fine, but you OWE me buster." So it'd be more 'Ann deciding to do something she dislikes to haul our rear end out of the fire' rather than what it was.
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May 2, 2017 22:38
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Dolash posted:I didn't really play Persona 4 much, although I absorbed most of it through friends and gaming pop culture, and things seem a little better this time, but it's definitely a slow trend and one of the reasons I don't usually go in for a lot of Japanese stuff. We're still at the point where letting the player choose a female main character would be a big step. The output of a single team at a single game studio isn't a great index of the whole of stuff coming out of an entire country. Not to obviate issues, but if we're talking low bars like having a female protag, there are other options out there that are better about it Motto fucked around with this message at 22:41 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 22:38
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Motto posted:cat grievances new username? mods???
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May 2, 2017 22:40
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Shogeton posted:But yeah, it is a major flaw of Yusuke that when he's in art-time, he doesn't really look at other people's feelings. (see also him just deciding to draw the 'couple' in the boat without asking them, then yelling at them to be quiet) But it would have good to maybe have Yusuke at some point give an apology about it? And maybe Ryuji and Main Character showing a little bit more understanding and space towards Ann rather than pressuring her into it? I guess Ryuji is Ryuji, but I'd like for the main character to have at least been able to back up and let her make the choice, then Ann go 'oh crap, you're under probation right? Ugh... fine, but you OWE me buster." So it'd be more 'Ann deciding to do something she dislikes to haul our rear end out of the fire' rather than what it was. Yeah, it's sort of like Yusuke never actually recognizes that pressuring Ann to pose nude for him was wrong. He even brings it up later--when Ann is pretending to be ~Ann Windsor~ in Shido's Palace he says that her acting is better than that "nude incident"--without even realizing that she's justifiably still pissed off about that. It sort of comes up in his confidant, too, towards the end, though I think it's Ryuji who brings it up. Yusuke's looking for something new to paint and Ryuji suggests Ann, to which Yusuke replies that now that he knows Ann's personality, he's not sure he could paint her beautifully anymore (though Ann's reaction to that was pretty funny). I do wish that Joker could've at least been more understanding about the whole thing. Ryuji's a jackass and probably significantly more excited about the whole idea than even Yusuke was, but c'mon, let Joker be the decent one if the player wants.
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May 2, 2017 22:43
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This looks upsettingly like Danny DeVito.
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May 2, 2017 22:44
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Dolash posted:I didn't really play Persona 4 much, although I absorbed most of it through friends and gaming pop culture, and things seem a little better this time, but it's definitely a slow trend and one of the reasons I don't usually go in for a lot of Japanese stuff. We're still at the point where letting the player choose a female main character would be a big step. lmao
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May 2, 2017 22:50
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AlphaKeny1 posted:lmao while I also don't know if I agree w/ him, I think it's prolly a bad look for the counterargument to be from someone w/ a tentacle rape avatar
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May 2, 2017 22:53
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Dolash posted:There is an endless rabbit hole of bad writing in the game with regards to gender and sexuality made even more awkward by cross-cultural conventions ("Is this okay in Japan?" vs. "actually this isn't okay anywhere") and Yusuke constantly wanting to see Ann naked for art reasons being a laugh-line and source of hijinks despite her having just overcome a sexual predator at her school is practically par for the course. I wouldn't say Yusuke "constantly wants to see Ann naked for art reasons." It's a thing he does once and, to be fair to you, never seems to recognize was a hosed-up thing to do. But it's not like it's a running gag throughout the game like "the girls can't cook" was in Persona 4. In fact, I'd say Persona 5 is generally a big step up from Persona 4. While the two gay stereotype guys are awful, Lala Escargot, the drag queen bartender, is cool, and the game in general draws a lot less of its humor from gender stereotyping. It also doesn't have a hot springs peeping scene, or something where male party members are freaked out because a dude might be gay (seriously, that "Kanji is gay and is gonna molest me" poo poo from Yosuke in Persona 4 got old real fast). It's far from perfect--did we really need multiple instances of the "use the girls as sexy bait" thing?--but definitely a step up. I doubt a selectable female protagonist was realistic for Persona 5--the game was delayed hugely as it is, and redoing the cutscenes, recording two sets of dialog for different pronouns, and all of that for both options just wasn't likely to happen. I doubt it'll happen in a rerelease, too, for the same reason. Persona 3 Portable could do it because they basically replaced all the cutscenes with talking heads. That said: a) C'mon, let the protagonist date a dude. The obvious choice is in Persona 5 is Yusuke but I honestly think he might be intended to read as asexual, and there aren't that many other male social links (like, you ain't gonna date Sojiro or the three-times-your-age politician or at-least-twice-your-age Iwai, Ryuji's probably not gay, gun kid is a kid, Morgana's a cat). For a future game, though, there wouldn't really be any more work involved in that, just have one or two of the male social links also be available as romance options. b) Persona 6 having a female protagonist would be cool. Unlikely, but cool. The last time there was a canon female protagonist was Persona 2: Eternal Punishment. Harrow fucked around with this message at 23:01 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 22:55
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There's official concept art for a female Joker so it was something they were considering. I wouldn't be super surprised if it is an option in p6.
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May 2, 2017 22:58
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Harrow posted:It's far from perfect--did we really need multiple instances of the "use the girls as sexy bait" thing?--but definitely a step up. I saw that as them trying to give Ann a role on the team. She represents the femme fatale seductress archetype, so they kept giving her people to seduce for the same reason they kept giving Futaba things to hack. It probably would've landed better if Ann wasn't so reluctant to do it though. Clarste fucked around with this message at 23:06 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 23:04
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Harrow posted:a) C'mon, let the protagonist date a dude. The obvious choice is Yusuke but I honestly think he might be intended to read as asexual. There wouldn't really be any more work involved in that, just have one or two of the male social links also be available as romance options. Harrow posted:b) Persona 6 having a female protagonist would be cool. Unlikely, but cool. The last time there was a canon female protagonist was Persona 2: Eternal Punishment.
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May 2, 2017 23:04
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NRVNQSR posted:Especially since romance now basically means just three extra scenes to write rather than an alternate half social link, and they don't even need to write any other characters reacting to it (except Sojiro and Morgana, I guess). There are few enough age-appropriate male social links in P5 that they could have written romance endings for all of them without much trouble. I think for Persona 5, the only viable choice would be Yusuke, and that's assuming he isn't supposed to be asexual. I think Ryuji being gay or bisexual would come off a little forced, and none of the other male confidants are even close to age-appropriate (Sojiro, Iwai, Yoshida, Shinya) or, y'know, the same species (Morgana). I realize the age-appropriateness argument doesn't hold too much water when Joker can date four different older women, but none of them are in their 50s/60s like the older male confidants are (and Chihaya's probably college-aged). Clarste posted:I saw that as them trying to give Ann a role on the team. She represents the femme fatale seductress archetype, so they kept giving her people to seduce for the same reason they kept giving Futaba things to hack. It probably would've landed better if Ann wasn't so reluctant to do it though. Yeah, it would've been better if she wasn't getting forced into it by someone, and also if she was good at it for reasons other than her looks. The game repeatedly points out that she's a terrible actress, so we can assume that when she succeeds at the seduction thing it's because she's so hot that it doesn't matter what she's saying. If she instead also used charm and acting skills, as well as her looks, then I think the femme fatale thing would've worked much better.
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May 2, 2017 23:09
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Clarste posted:I saw that as them trying to give Ann a role on the team. She's supposed to be the femme fatale seductress, so they kept giving her people to seduce for the same reason they kept giving Futaba things to hack. It probably would've landed better if Ann wasn't so reluctant to do it though. Like her whole modeling discipline is her drinking a lot of soda and stuffing her face with crepes, girl gives no shits so it's weird thing to keep resurfacing in the plot. She's more goofy and just all around comfortable with knowing that she's hot, like her teasing Ryuji in the beach scene. My biggest grievance with Ann Posing Nude is that there's never an option as the MC for you to say "Don't do it, Ann. We'll think of something else" or literally anything that's not 'tough poo poo Ann, good luck with all that". It's another case of you having to sit there in Persona 4 and just watching Yosuke's homophobia
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May 2, 2017 23:10
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Harrow posted:I think for Persona 5, the only viable choice would be Yusuke, and that's assuming he isn't supposed to be asexual. I think Ryuji being gay or bisexual would come off a little forced, and none of the other male confidants are even close to age-appropriate (Sojiro, Iwai, Yoshida, Shinya) or, y'know, the same species (Morgana). Igor. Just imagine.
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May 2, 2017 23:13
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I'd date Igor.
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May 2, 2017 23:12
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Harrow posted:I think for Persona 5, the only viable choice would be Yusuke, and that's assuming he isn't supposed to be asexual. I think Ryuji being gay or bisexual would come off a little forced, and none of the other male confidants are even close to age-appropriate (Sojiro, Iwai, Yoshida, Shinya) or, y'know, the same species (Morgana). I realize the age-appropriateness argument doesn't hold too much water when Joker can date four different older women, but none of them are in their 50s/60s like the older male confidants are (and Chihaya's probably college-aged). ignore the whole murder thing, don't worry about that right now
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May 2, 2017 23:15
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Goro's death would be a more powerful scene if he were also Joker's boyfriend.
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May 2, 2017 23:14
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Moltrey posted:If you don't think Goro wouldn't make out with the MC given the opportunity then check the script again. Well yeah, Goro would make out with Joker all day long given the chance, it's just that the way his social link develops doesn't leave a ton of room for a romance option.
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May 2, 2017 23:15
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im starting the rumor now that Goro was planned to be the cannon romance option, pass it on gotta go hack in some romance voice lines into the files Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 23:20 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 23:16
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