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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:look at countries like the US that treat their civil servants like human garbage and hire them through a normal application process and see that, despite that, they still have very little corruption in government.  
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May 3, 2017 00:31
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Not sure what you are on about. Federal government is an extremely important thing, does a lot of important poo poo for a lot of people, including keeping you safe. There was an election to pick the next bureaucrat to oversee it for the coming 4 years. Sadly, nobody gave enough of a poo poo to make sure that someone competent gets the position, so some demented idiot joke candidate got it by default and now there is effectively no functioning oversight at all, which is bad for everyone. Then you started talking about getting hosed with razorblades or something, which has nothing to do with anything. Inspiring. Trump isn't my responsibility. Neither is le Penis. Not voting for them doesn't mean I have a responsibility to vote for someone else I despise even more. blowfish posted:closet_accelerationism.txt if you wanna drive head first into brick wall, go ahead. Not doing anything to dissuade you from this mad course you've chosen, aside from you know, pointing out that voting for Mecron is going to be a loving disaster, doesn't make me anything. You want me to vote, what's in it for me? Because I sure as poo poo don't see any of my decicions leading to anything good so... gently caress it. You can sink or swim on your own merits if you so desire, but the pool has aids and I'm not going to dip into it just in the hopes of catching a straign that only make my rectum prolapse, as opposed to turning me into a sexual docking station. So You'll exceuse me if I choose apathy, I'm sure.
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May 3, 2017 01:38
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Either way if Macron is a fuckup I'm excited for people to start calling him Macaron.
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May 3, 2017 02:11
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Macarons are too good to be compared to this suit golem.
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May 3, 2017 03:04
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I don't know enough about the French civil service system to argue with you, but you can look at countries like the US that treat their civil servants like human garbage and hire them through a normal application process and see that, despite that, they still have very little corruption in government. The US in particular has a higher/better corruption perception score than France.
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May 3, 2017 05:28
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lollontee posted:Sure, but less pithy. The point, which I'm sure you got though didn't address, was that if I'm given such a choice I'm just not going to choose. I'm sure that le Penis would be objectively worse than Macron, but demanding that people vote for someone they despise because the other guy is worse just isn't going to work. If my interests are going to go unrepresented no matter what I choose, why should I take part in the process at all? Y'know I get your point, but by not voting, if Le Pen were to win, you're partially responsible for that outcome since you could have done something to oppose it and didn't. And Le Pen winning will result in way more innocent people getting hurt than Macron. So you're, by not acting, causing innocent people to get hurt.
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May 3, 2017 05:59
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:There were like 3 different levels of mistakes (how the electoral system is structured, who the chosen candidate was, whether to vote for them or not) and just because we hosed up with the first two doesn't mean it was good to make the last one as well. There is one additional layer here, which is how the candidate ran their campaign. And since this is what ultimately handed America to Trump I feel like this is the layer you want to look at here because the candidate and campaign are infinitely more important than any individual voter. And so far Macron seems intent on gently caress that one up, which is bad.
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May 3, 2017 06:15
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fishmech posted:Dude, the average voter isn't a moronic faux-leftist who's refusing to vote because Macron isn't a communist. So shut your stupid face about the "average voter". We're specifically talking about the subset of voters who are pretending they're not going to vote because he didn't "do enough" to be leftist. Because Macron is a liberal and liberalism clashes with their beliefs. It's not that hard. It would be an easy choice for me, but given how hard goons in this thread skew to the left, I can understand their misgivings about Macron. I'd probably abstain in their case as well.
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May 3, 2017 07:24
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lollontee posted:Inspiring. Trump isn't my responsibility. Neither is le Penis. Not voting for them doesn't mean I have a responsibility to vote for someone else I despise even more. That childish poo poo doesn't work as a defense since at least the Nuremberg trials. Reality doesn't really care how you feel about your responsibility, you still have to carry it. You still may end up at the gallows of life, even if you just followed orders or tried to keep your head down or whatever. A Buttery Pastry posted:That's because the US has basically legalized corruption at all levels of government, so it doesn't "count". I mean, they're not alone in letting money control politics, but to say they have very little corruption in government is just plain wrong. It's measuring the perception of corruption, e.g. how much abuse of government power people experience or perceive. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to accept that, while there is corruption in the US government, it is a comparatively small amount. Your college professor doesn't casually accept money envelopes for grades and the judge doesn't drop your parking ticket or murder charges because he knows your father or whatever, which is how the majority of countries in the world function today. I mean, we just had Fillon, a man who openly stole hundreds of thousands of euros from the government, run for highest political office and getting into 3rd place. Is it really that hard to imagine that people in France perceive more corruption that in the US?
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May 3, 2017 07:47
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:That childish poo poo doesn't work as a defense since at least the Nuremberg trials. Reality doesn't really care how you feel about your responsibility, you still have to carry it. You still may end up at the gallows of life, even if you just followed orders or tried to keep your head down or whatever. France and the US are about the same actually, with France just scoring a few points lower. Both countries have serious problems with top-level and municipal level political corruption (even if institutional corruption is low). And there are still bribes in the US, they're just not as formalized as they are in more corrupt countries. Instead of transfers of lump sums of cash they just take the form of paid speeches, university donations, foundation donations, consultancy positions and campaign donations. Just because the corruption is informal does not mean it doesn't exist.
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May 3, 2017 08:01
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:That childish poo poo doesn't work as a defense since at least the Nuremberg trials. Reality doesn't really care how you feel about your responsibility, you still have to carry it. You still may end up at the gallows of life, even if you just followed orders or tried to keep your head down or whatever. It's pretty messed up that you are essentially arguing people who do not vote for the austerity zombies are the equivalent of war criminals. The problem on a larger scale is that Europe-wide the left has failed to find a coherent and appealing message. The austerity zombies can keep claiming they're justified in being the sole keepers of power, since their only opposition is literally Hitler. So the austerity zombies keep destroying the lives of people, who go on to vote for the populists who promise more money and less swarthy people. At least in Finland the populists made the mistake of entering government and displaying their worthlessness to the electorate, but that only means the austerity zombies remain in place, trying to implement T-4 programs for the elderly and disabled. (This incidentally seems to be leading to the populists promising even more death to swarthy people, so good luck when they get in power next!) Europe needs an alternative to the austerity zombies, but the only ones willing to "do their responsibility" seem to be the literally Hitlers. That needs to change, since people don't really like what the austerity zombies are doing, and you wind up with the mild-mannered guy/gal in a suit versus a frothing racist over and over. Marine doesn't seem to be winning this time around, but that's essentially just kicking the can down the road to the next election, since I will bet you a pint that the handsome man in a suit isn't going to stop austerity zombieing like it's a Romero movie.
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May 3, 2017 08:05
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The centre-left executives aren't refusing to change because they're too stupid to see the winds. I mean with Syriza, Podemos, Sanders and Melencheon it is pretty clear at this point that the public of many western nations do want and will support a populist leftist position if such an alternative is offered. The real problem is that the centre-left of the last two decades aren't actually leftists. Even when their electorate and constituencies basically beg them for change (Corbyn with Labour in the UK and Juholt with the Social Democrats in Sweden) the party executive opposes such change at any cost. Ideologically these people are neoliberals just as much as their centre-right opposition. They do not on an ideological level believe in the ideas necessary to push an actual leftist position.
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May 3, 2017 08:15
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Grapplejack posted:I feel like it would be a bad idea for her to use article 12 if she does manage to get into office to avoid the "oh no what happened quick vote in leftists" thing that we saw here in the US. Hey guess what? From today's Canard, here are her plans to do almost exactly that thing I said she could do once in power. The part I missed is she'd have a referendum first to change the way the Assemblée is elected to proportional representation with an extra 30% of the seats for the leading party. That's a thing she can do, and probably will if she gets even the slightest whiff of power. She is loving dangerous. https://twitter.com/Mancioday/status/859463113233629184
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May 3, 2017 08:46
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MiddleOne posted:The centre-left executives aren't refusing to change because they're too stupid to see the winds. I mean with Syriza, Podemos, Sanders and Melencheon it is pretty clear at this point that the public of many western nations do want and will support a populist leftist position if such an alternative is offered. The real problem is that the centre-left of the last two decades aren't actually leftists. Even when their electorate and constituencies basically beg them for change (Corbyn with Labour in the UK and Juholt with the Social Democrats in Sweden) the party executive opposes such change at any cost. Ideologically these people are neoliberals just as much as their centre-right opposition. They do not on an ideological level believe in the ideas necessary to push an actual leftist position. The electorate in the UK is begging Labour to change the country? Did you see the polls? Generally the last few years have clearly proven, that leftists only win with promises they can't fulfill (see SYRIZA) because "taxing the rich" is not the magic solution for an inefficient economy/public sector, no matter how much you want it to be. There is simply no viable program the left is offering, which does not involve "we force others [e.g. Germany, "the rich"] to pay for it", which of course is unenforceable in the end and therefor just a pipe dream, especially since the "center-right" parties are certainly not the vanguard of radical capitalism certain people in this thread would like to make them out to be. Re Leftists abstaining from voting for Macron: It's simple math. If they never would have voted for LePen because she is devil incarnate, not voting for Macron will be the equivalent of 1/2 votes for LePen. If they think that's a conscious decision, do it. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 08:51 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 08:49
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Wouldn't the constitutional court just call that referendum illegitimate and deny her ability to do so?
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May 3, 2017 08:55
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Grapplejack posted:Wouldn't the constitutional court just call that referendum illegitimate and deny her ability to do so? On what ground?
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May 3, 2017 08:58
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MiddleOne posted:Just because the corruption is informal does not mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if it's formal or informal, as long as it's perceived. That's what the rating is about. If you feel like another student is unjustly getting better grades because his father donated money to the college, it shows up in the rating just the same as if someone had handed out a money envelope to the prof. Look, I'm not saying that there is no corruption in the US, just that the impression of it is completely blown out of proportion. At least in the case of Germany, I've heard my own share of stories of how poo poo used to work in "the good old days", so I always gotta chuckle when someone tells me how bad and rotten modern society has become. Rappaport posted:It's pretty messed up that you are essentially arguing people who do not vote for the austerity zombies are the equivalent of war criminals. Nah, which is why I used gallows metaphorically ("gallows of life"). We, as a culture, are pretty much settled on what role civic duty plays in modern society. poo poo is non optional. There are some regional variances, but all nations live by this principle to some extent: Can't get out of jury duty in the US, can't get out of voting duty in Australia, can't get out of first-aid duty in Germany, etc. quote:The problem on a larger scale is that Europe-wide the left has failed to find a coherent and appealing message. The austerity zombies can keep claiming they're justified in being the sole keepers of power, since their only opposition is literally Hitler. So the austerity zombies keep destroying the lives of people, who go on to vote for the populists who promise more money and less swarthy people. At least in Finland the populists made the mistake of entering government and displaying their worthlessness to the electorate, but that only means the austerity zombies remain in place, trying to implement T-4 programs for the elderly and disabled. (This incidentally seems to be leading to the populists promising even more death to swarthy people, so good luck when they get in power next!) To my knowledge, all European countries have at least one party or movement that represents genuine social-democratic principles (Melenchon/Hamon France's case) and they all run in elections, yet none of them get anywhere close to the overwhelming support you imply. If you want to do something against the "austerity zombie" you need to join on of these parties, donate to them and, come election season, get out on the street and talk to potential voters. Voters are your problem, not the global financial Illuminati lizards.
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May 3, 2017 09:03
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GaussianCopula posted:On what ground? From the French Constitution: quote:Article 58. The Constitutional Council supervises the election of the President of the Republic, with a view to ensuring its regularity. It investigates objections and proclaims the result. Basically the CC is in charge of elections and referendums, and they can deny a referendum from being put forward. It's a major change to the voting process so I wouldn't be surprised if they shot it down. Maybe they'd let it through without the 30% bonus. ee: I'm also pretty sure that, since the voting rules are a statute, she'd need to get it through the legislature before it would be able to become law, regardless of referendum status. Though I may be reading this wrong Grapplejack fucked around with this message at 09:15 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 09:04
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ElNarez posted:Hey guess what? From today's Canard, here are her plans to do almost exactly that thing I said she could do once in power. The part I missed is she'd have a referendum first to change the way the Assemblée is elected to proportional representation with an extra 30% of the seats for the leading party. That's a thing she can do, and probably will if she gets even the slightest whiff of power. She is loving dangerous. but her emails
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May 3, 2017 09:11
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Only dumb Americans think Le Pen is seriously a fascist or Hitler or whatever because they still don't understand what fascism is. All of that poo poo is just hyperbole intended to guilt trip you into acquiescing to their destructive ideology.
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May 3, 2017 09:11
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I'm from europe and I know le pen is a dirty nazi just as well, goon sir.
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May 3, 2017 09:14
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Shibawanko posted:Only dumb Americans think Le Pen is seriously a fascist or Hitler or whatever because they still don't understand what fascism is. yeah i'm french and i know she's a fascist
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May 3, 2017 09:17
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the only country with real power to change how the eu works is france, and they don't have the guts for it. macron certainly doesn't want to, because he's a neoliberal slimeball
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May 3, 2017 09:16
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:To my knowledge, all European countries have at least one party or movement that represents genuine social-democratic principles (Melenchon/Hamon France's case) and they all run in elections, yet none of them get anywhere close to the overwhelming support you imply. I was actually criticizing the left for not managing more support than the austerity zombies and literally Hitler, though. I also apologize if it offends your Teutonic sensibilities that on a humour forum I used the term "zombies" when referring to people, but I am not sure whether borrowing the term "cockroaches" noted far-left scholar Krugman has used would qualify as a hate crime. I'm not sure why you're evoking Alex Jones level imagery when noted rabid Communist agitators such as professor Piketty have pointed out that the austerians are demonstrably imposing economic harm on "the working people". While it is fine and good to simply blame "the voters", it seems to me that a more beneficial stance on the left would be examining their messaging and indeed their policy suggestions to fix the failing "European project" before the literally Hitlers get themselves elected and do damage. This was your original point of umbrage, that there is a fleeting possibility Marine wins, yes? And it is the duty of Europol to see that does not happen. What I am suggesting is that perhaps if people were presented with options worth voting for over the austerity zombies and the literal Hitlers, there would be less chance of literally Hitler being elected. And that the continued insistence on the part of the austerity zombies that their cause must be right since people didn't vote for literally Hitler still winds up harming real human beings through their austerity T-4 programs. Now, it is of course a valid political opinion that the austerity zombie T-4 programs are more ethical means of disposing of worthless mouths to feed than those of the literal Hitlers, but I am not sure this is an opinion the worthless mouths would share.
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May 3, 2017 09:22
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GaussianCopula posted:The electorate in the UK is begging Labour to change the country? Did you see the polls? We'll never know because it was sabotaged and that is my point. When the centre-left constituency's tried to push Labour and the Social Democrats to the left they were immediately betrayed by the party executive which did everything in their power to drag their party and its new leader through the mud. In both cases this was done through the public media which pretty much guaranteed that everyone would lose their trust in the party. It doesn't matter what your ideological position is when your party has been fighting a very public civil war for the better part of two years. Perception matters more than policy to the average voter. GaussianCopula posted:There is simply no viable program the left is offering, which does not involve "we force others [e.g. Germany, "the rich"] to pay for it", which of course is unenforceable in the end and therefor just a pipe dream, especially since the "center-right" parties are certainly not the vanguard of radical capitalism certain people in this thread would like to make them out to be. Unlike the very viable programs such as the austerity and privatizations demanded by neoliberalism which have been working just fantastically as illustrated by GDP, inflation and household debt...? I mean I know you're too far up your own rear end to actually see it but fact of the matter is that we wouldn't have the resurgence of leftist and nationalist sentiments if centrist policy had not been such a complete and abject failure at taking us out of the Eurocrisis.
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May 3, 2017 09:24
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Shibawanko posted:Only dumb Americans think Le Pen is seriously a fascist or Hitler or whatever because they still don't understand what fascism is. you're retarded
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May 3, 2017 09:24
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Shibawanko posted:Only dumb Americans think Le Pen is seriously a fascist or Hitler or whatever because they still don't understand what fascism is. Le Pen is undoubtedly a fascist.
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May 3, 2017 09:25
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MiddleOne posted:Le Pen is undoubtedly a fascist. And I personally don't like her very much.
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May 3, 2017 09:41
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:That childish poo poo doesn't work as a defense since at least the Nuremberg trials. Reality doesn't really care how you feel about your responsibility, you still have to carry it. You still may end up at the gallows of life, even if you just followed orders or tried to keep your head down or whatever. Obviously I get the point you're trying to make but apparently federal employees are rather well paid. So are college professors. The problem with public office in the USA is that for the most part it has to be bought not won. Your average house race has spending in the millions (compare to say, the £30k (~$40k) per seat limit in the UK) and your average senate race ten times more than that. I'm not sure that claiming Fillon, who lost after being a huge favourite, as an example of rampant accepted corruption in French politics compares badly to the USA when Trump has appointed his closest family members to his administration and has god knows how many conflicts of interest.
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May 3, 2017 09:42
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MiddleOne posted:Unlike the very viable programs such as the austerity and privatizations demanded by neoliberalism which have been working just fantastically as illustrated by GDP, inflation and household debt...? I mean I know you're too far up your own rear end to actually see it but fact of the matter is that we wouldn't have the resurgence of leftist and nationalist sentiments if centrist policy had not been such a complete and abject failure at taking us out of the Eurocrisis. What would have been the alternative to austerity that did not consist of a massive wealth transfer, which is politically not viable? Given that everyone tells me how bad austerity is I wonder why the alternative to it does not win elections, especially in countries like Germany and the Netherlands.
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May 3, 2017 09:52
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Shibawanko posted:Only dumb Americans think Le Pen is seriously a fascist or Hitler or whatever because they still don't understand what fascism is. Only people dumb enough to believe Le Pen's rebranding of the FN is honest think she's not a fascist. Don't be a dumb person taking a fascist at their word when they're saying "I'm not a fascist, honest".
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May 3, 2017 09:51
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GaussianCopula posted:What would have been the alternative to austerity that did not consist of a massive wealth transfer, which is politically not viable? Wealth transfers from Germany to the other provinces of the EU superstate, duh.
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May 3, 2017 09:54
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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^^^^^^^^: That is the non-joke answer.GaussianCopula posted:What would have been the alternative to austerity that did not consist of a massive wealth transfer, which is politically not viable? Invade Germany.
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May 3, 2017 09:54
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ElNarez posted:Hey guess what? From today's Canard, here are her plans to do almost exactly that thing I said she could do once in power. The part I missed is she'd have a referendum first to change the way the Assemblée is elected to proportional representation with an extra 30% of the seats for the leading party. That's a thing she can do, and probably will if she gets even the slightest whiff of power. She is loving dangerous. You can also thank Hollande, Valls and Cazeneuve for making sure she'd get the state of emergency powers without having to do anything, not to mention all the new police powers they implemented. The state of emergency should lapse 2 weeks after the elections, but was prolonged until July 15 by a decree that also voids this rule. I'll probably vote for Macron but I can't blame anyone for not wanting to vote for the candidate of the same assholes who loaded the gun to begin with.
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May 3, 2017 09:56
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MiddleOne posted:Invade Germany. I don't think calling for World War 3 is a good alternative to austerity. But that's just me.
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May 3, 2017 09:57
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Austerity caused WW2, will cause WW3.
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May 3, 2017 09:58
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YF-23 posted:Only people dumb enough to believe Le Pen's rebranding of the FN is honest think she's not a fascist. Don't be a dumb person taking a fascist at their word when they're saying "I'm not a fascist, honest". Fascism has a specific meaning. It's not just "any scary reactionary working class movement". People throw that word around here like Le Pen is going to start a second holocaust or something. Conditions are not like in the 30's. Le Pen voters are grumpy dumbasses from Nord Pas de Calais who are scared of Islam and hate their job, they're not fanatical racial supremacists who think that muslims secretly control society or want them killed. I think people are confusing "fascist" as a slur for right wing scum (admittedly, sometimes useful, but not here) for actual fascism, as in the historical phenomenon. If Le Pen wins it'll probably be like Trump in America or the Law & Justice government in Poland. Populist workerism paired with conservatism and undermining of the rule of law. That's bad, and I don't want it, but the way we are warned that we should vote Macron OR ELSE FASCISM like in some cheap alternate history movie is some ballsy poo poo coming from cosy middle class liberals who a few years ago probably wouldn't shut up about Godwin's law.
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May 3, 2017 10:02
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Shibawanko posted:Fascism has a specific meaning. It's not just "any scary reactionary working class movement". People throw that word around here like Le Pen is going to start a second holocaust or something. Conditions are not like in the 30's. Le Pen voters are grumpy dumbasses from Nord Pas de Calais who are scared of Islam and hate their job, they're not fanatical racial supremacists who think that muslims secretly control society or want them killed. I think people are confusing "fascist" as a slur for right wing scum (admittedly, sometimes useful, but not here) for actual fascism, as in the historical phenomenon. Le Pen is a fascist.
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May 3, 2017 10:03
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Rappaport posted:I was actually criticizing the left for not managing more support than the austerity zombies and literally Hitler, though. I also apologize if it offends your Teutonic sensibilities that on a humour forum I used the term "zombies" when referring to people, but I am not sure whether borrowing the term "cockroaches" noted far-left scholar Krugman has used would qualify as a hate crime. I'm not sure why you're evoking Alex Jones level imagery when noted rabid Communist agitators such as professor Piketty have pointed out that the austerians are demonstrably imposing economic harm on "the working people". The sensible left is never going to be able to rival the right-wing populist message, because no one in the world has a magic solution to our current economic and social woes. And you can't out-message populists in general, because they promise everything and nobody can promise more than that. A functioning democratic system has always relied on the population making educated and sensible choices and performing their civic duty. If that part falls away, a democracy can't exist. What is happening in the world right now(automation, globalization, economic rise of the third world, demographic collapse, climate change, etc.) is unprecedented and a highly dynamic process, which means we have no past experience to learn from and no reliable prediction of what the situation will even look like in a decade. The rational left can propose sensible legislation and policies to alleviate problems and better guide us through the storm, but they can never peddle some useless, idiotic magic fantasies like the right-wing populists do. gently caress that poo poo. gently caress populists. I'm probably gonna vote left(the real left, not SPD) in the next election, but if they start peddling even more populism instead of sensible ideas, I'm out. Luckily we have a sane political system, so I'll never be in the situation to have to choose between abstaining and risking a loving fascist setting fire to the whole country. GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 10:09 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 10:07
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:The sensible left is never going to be able to rival the right-wing populist message, because no one in the world has a magic solution to our current economic and social woes. And you can't out-message populists in general, because they promise everything and nobody can promise more than that. A functioning democratic system has always relied on the population making educated and sensible choices and performing their civic duty. If that part falls away, a democracy can't exist. So democracy has never existed?
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May 3, 2017 10:10
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