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The first paragraph is weird, the last two seem pretty spot on.
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May 3, 2017 13:23
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Kassad posted:The first paragraph is weird, the last two seem pretty spot on. I could see a bit of Lacan in the first paragraph. Also, if a voter truly seems he has no choice, that the only options presented to him is an endless cycle of fear, maybe the best place for him is to abstain and instead take to the streets.
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May 3, 2017 13:41
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Ardennes posted:I could see a bit of Lacan in the first paragraph. why not both
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May 3, 2017 13:51
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Kurtofan posted:why not both I wouldn't disagree, you can discreetly hold your nose and vote macron or whatever lovely neoliberalism is on the plate and still not fall to the liberal blackmail of trying to forcefully shame others into doing the same by calling them fascist enablers for not voting
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May 3, 2017 13:56
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Fados posted:I wouldn't disagree, you can discreetly hold your nose and vote macron or whatever lovely neoliberalism is on the plate and still not fall to the liberal blackmail of trying to forcefully shame others into doing the same by calling them fascist enablers for not voting
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May 3, 2017 13:57
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jBrereton posted:It does actually in a very real sense empower fascists to not vote for their opposition, Hope That Helps. So it does voting for neoliberals, it's just a time differential. But forcefully shlling for neoliberals with blackmail tactics, you can't do better far-right propaganda than that.
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May 3, 2017 14:01
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If I could vote in the French election (and I can't, I'm British) or was faced with a similar choice in the UK, I would first abstain but if I had to vote then Le Pen is the only option. Le Pen is marginally worse than Macron but I think Macron would be very efficient at carrying out his agenda while Le Pen would be incompetent, so would not get much done. The silver lining with Le Pen is that having a fascist in office would boost the Left in the next election so there is more chance of an actually decent candidate being viable come the next vote.
Flayer fucked around with this message at 14:18 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 14:15
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Flayer posted:If I could vote in the French election (and I can't, I'm British) or was faced with a similar choice in the UK, I would first abstain but if I had to vote then Le Pen is the only option. Le Pen is marginally worse than Macron but I think Macron would be very efficient at carrying out his agenda while Le Pen would be incompetent, so would not get much done. and the silver lining is that having a fascist in office would boost the Left in the next election so there is more chance of an actually decent candidate being viable come the next vote. White leftists advocating for the fascist option without giving a poo poo about the minorities, immigrants being affected. Some things are the same whether it's the UK, France, or the US.
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May 3, 2017 14:17
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Flayer posted:If I could vote in the French election (and I can't, I'm British) or was faced with a similar choice in the UK, I would first abstain but if I had to vote then Le Pen is the only option.
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May 3, 2017 14:19
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Flayer posted:If I could vote in the French election (and I can't, I'm British) or was faced with a similar choice in the UK, I would first abstain but if I had to vote then Le Pen is the only option. Le Pen is marginally worse than Macron but I think Macron would be very efficient at carrying out his agenda while Le Pen would be incompetent, so would not get much done. The silver lining with Le Pen is that having a fascist in office would boost the Left in the next election so there is more chance of an actually decent candidate being viable come the next vote. "the Left in the next election", lmao Now I'm not condemning people who won't vote, but this is really stupid and will backfire in your face very, very badly. And that's not getting into how you're loving over everyone you know who's not white and/or straight.
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May 3, 2017 14:20
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Fados posted:So it does voting for neoliberals, it's just a time differential.
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May 3, 2017 14:21
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Like if you think that in five years Le Pen will DEFINITELY win Because Of Neoliberalism and you are on the left, what the gently caress do you plan to be doing for the next few years that's less inspiring than fascist revanchism?
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May 3, 2017 14:25
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jBrereton posted:What is it with you people and your loving oracular view that you can never translate into success for yourself? Maybe it's the product of the climbing popularity of the far-right everywhere in the west and elsewhere and the tendency of liberals of doubling down on their harmful bullshit and not wanting sticking "our" head in the sand?
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May 3, 2017 14:25
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jBrereton posted:Like if you think that in five years Le Pen will DEFINITELY win Because Of Neoliberalism and you are on the left, what the gently caress do you plan to be doing for the next few years that's less inspiring than fascist revanchism? Hint: none of the people saying this kind of poo poo are actual leftists, they want their own form of socialism, nationalist-like, if you will.
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May 3, 2017 14:27
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jBrereton posted:Like if you think that in five years Le Pen will DEFINITELY win Because Of Neoliberalism and you are on the left, what the gently caress do you plan to be doing for the next few years that's less inspiring than fascist revanchism? I know what NOT to do, which is guilt tripping people into voting for poo poo they don't like, everything else is pretty open for smart people like yourself to contribute
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May 3, 2017 14:27
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shrike82 posted:White leftists advocating for the fascist option without giving a poo poo about the minorities, immigrants being affected.
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May 3, 2017 14:30
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Flayer posted:Accelerationist tripe It doesn't work this way, it hasn't worked this way historically, and your ignorance damages the cause you purport to serve.
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May 3, 2017 14:33
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Flayer posted:And what about the working class, which is a large majority of immigrants? All these people will be hosed by Macron. Macron spews his hate in corporate speak, it doesn't make it any better. "Both candidates are the same" said the leftist of the fascist and the neoliberal, "but I'd vote for the fascist anyway".
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May 3, 2017 14:34
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jBrereton posted:Like if you think that in five years Le Pen will DEFINITELY win Because Of Neoliberalism and you are on the left, what the gently caress do you plan to be doing for the next few years that's less inspiring than fascist revanchism? The same thing they did before Sunday, make stupid choices that serve no one but allow them to feel good. You're not supposed to like voting for a neo-liberal, you're supposed to do it because you failed and it's the price of failure. Next time you'll do better. Or don't take the medicine and let the disease kill you.
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May 3, 2017 14:37
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Flayer posted:And what about the working class, which is a large majority of immigrants? All these people will be hosed by Macron. Macron spews his hate in corporate speak, it doesn't make it any better. Voting for the FN is still a goddamn stupid idea in that case.
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May 3, 2017 14:38
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abstain or spoil your ballot or whatever but do not vote for the literal fascist you idiot
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May 3, 2017 14:51
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El Pollo Blanco posted:This seems way more coherent (lol) than the bizarre poo poo Slavoj Z was spewing about the US election.
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May 3, 2017 14:59
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Italy news: the New York Times published an article that outright calls out Grillo on his anti-vaccination stance, and Grillo replied "I NEVER ACTUALLY SAID THAT FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS", despite there being literally dozens of videos of him saying just that. Judging by polls, this guy's party will likely win the next elections 
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May 3, 2017 15:01
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icantfindaname posted:was napoleon a fascist? sinn fein? pan-africanists? The essential part of nazism was the threat from within. Jews were hated because they were seen as too "cosmopolitan", too integrated, too similar to the Aryans and therefore deceptive, untrustworthy and a target for extermination in the eyes of the nazis. The aryan race needed living space and so lesser peoples were to be displaced to make room, through war. Fascism in Italy was on the one hand an attempt to revive some imagined ancient rome, on the other hand a colonial and genocidal project in Africa. The idea was that Italy was weak and decadent and could only survive through conquest and colonial expansion in Africa. In Japan, it was a little different, the other peoples of Asia needed to be freed from the western powers and protected by the superior Japanese race, at the same time Japan had become decadent and too westernised during the Taisho democracy, and fascism in Japan was strongly anti-intellectual, emphasising emotion and passionate sacrifice for the state. The element of foreign conquest in all three isn't there in 21st century islamophobic right wing movements (probably because of the diminished relevance of discourses about the nation state), they are more isolationist, and the threat isn't so much seen as coming from within as from without. These seem like important elements of fascism to me, and the combination of them is what made them so dangerous, which are not present today. So in what way are Wilders or Le Pen really fascists? Yeah I call them that too, as a slur, but I don't seriously think that they are the same kind of threat, and I think they are just less dangerous and should be fought partially by taking some of their antiglobalist positions while rejecting the racism.
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May 3, 2017 15:55
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Thanks for trying dude, but they are fascists because they hate browns, and if you don't vote for more wild capitalism you also hate them! Check mate leftists
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May 3, 2017 16:05
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Shibawanko posted:The element of foreign conquest in all three isn't there in 21st century islamophobic right wing movements... She told supporters: “I’m sorry, but for those who really like to talk about the second world war, if we’re talking about occupation, we can also talk about this while we’re at it, because this is an occupation of territory. It’s an occupation of swaths of territory, of areas in which religious laws apply … for sure, there are no tanks, no soldiers, but it’s an occupation all the same and it weighs on people.”
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May 3, 2017 16:12
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"All candidates are the same, the neoliberal centrist who promised not to touch the shortest work week(35h) and lowest retirement age(60y/52y for m/w) in the developed world and the literal fascist who announced that she wants to abolish the democratic order, as soon as she is in power. Doesn't matter who gets in power, they both suck!  "I swear it's the loving water. Something is in the water. Probably lead.
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May 3, 2017 16:14
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LemonDrizzle posted:How the gently caress can you look at what they say about Muslim immigrants/citizens and say that? Le Pen has literally talked about France being "occupied" in the same way as in WW2, for crying out loud: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/marine-le-pen-not-guilty-inciting-religious-hatred-lyon-french-front-national Not to mention how white genocide has somehow slowly crept back into political discourse over the last year.
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May 3, 2017 16:18
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Fados posted:Maybe it's the product of the climbing popularity of the far-right everywhere in the west and elsewhere and the tendency of liberals of doubling down on their harmful bullshit and not wanting sticking "our" head in the sand? Like I completely understand people's worries about the desperation the last few years have caused, but I don't think Macron or Le Pen is going to keep the working week at 35 hours, I don't think either has any real strategy for making people's lives better, and the left can and should fight on that ground - together, Hamon and Melenchon managed to poll better than FN, with more forward thinking strategies. Hold on to that, because it does matter that the left doesn't just go "everything is turning right wing we're hosed" despite there being quite strong popular support for a leftist platform.
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May 3, 2017 16:25
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I swear it's the loving water. Something is in the water. Probably lead. We're not talking about Michigan.
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May 3, 2017 16:28
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jBrereton posted:What's climbing is the popularity of people who oppose the current order of things. The most trenchant voices for that have been on the far right so far. But the (relatively) far left did not do that much worse than FN this time and if you believe there is momentum behind France Insoumise then it is ridiculous to assert that voting for Macron now is a vote for FN down the line, unless you're willing to give up because your boy didn't get into the second round. I agree 100% but I'd just have to add a caveat about the historical momentum of the overton window moving to the right and how one the biggest supporting pillars of this movement has been the lesser of two evils discourse that's libidinally based on this blackmail that if you don't support the 'anti-fascist' (and in this context anti-fascist is simply the lesser of the evils, so that - 'this time it's really fascism, really!') you are supporting fascism. This is why I would never criticize anyone for voting Macron, and would probably even mildly try to convert some abstainees of the issue, but never using the lesser of two evils discoursive blackmail, because, even though it actually is the most effective, that's precisely reinforcing the main ideological mechanism that has through these last decades allowed for the far-right to get the popular support it enjoys today (also because of complete incapacity of the left clearly, but that's another issue). ed: So what remains, if not the 'lesser of two evilism', as an argument for voting Macron? Well you'd have to argue how a vote for the neoliberal right now might further the radical leftist cause, which is actually kinda hard, but IMO it's the only way not to fall to the current ideological blackmail. Fados fucked around with this message at 16:44 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 16:37
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El Pollo Blanco posted:This seems way more coherent (lol) than the bizarre poo poo Slavoj Z was spewing about the US election. It's more coherent than anything else by him that I've read.
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May 3, 2017 16:56
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https://twitter.com/leLab_E1/status/859805921786175488 Hollande: "People are so close to loving me!" lmao
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May 3, 2017 17:36
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Phlegmish posted:It's more coherent than anything else by him that I've read. I'm not sure about both candidates being "candidates of fear". You can frame anyone like that if you really want to. Voting for Valls could be fear of change, for Melenchon could be fear of weakening of workers' rights.
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May 3, 2017 17:59
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I'm not that familiar with the French system, but from what I understand, whoever wins will still be limited to a degree domestically by the results of the legislative elections. However, they will have a free rein in defining what France's voice in the EU is going to be, and from that point of view Macron's "soft reboot" platform is certainly more appealing than whatever goofy abolish-all-trade-deals poo poo Le Pen is planning.
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May 3, 2017 18:07
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Is there a good writeup on Macron past policies and statements, as well as his previous activity somwhere ? e: Anyone watching tonight's macron/mlp debate ? I wont
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May 3, 2017 18:10
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Please don't loving screw this up France, I do not want to live through the end of democracy.
AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 18:17 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 18:14
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unpacked robinhood posted:Is there a good writeup on Macron past policies and statements, as well as his previous activity somwhere ? i'm not either
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May 3, 2017 18:14
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AceOfFlames posted:Please don't loving screw this up France, I do not want to live through the end of the EU.
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May 3, 2017 18:17
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Fados posted:ed: So what remains, if not the 'lesser of two evilism', as an argument for voting Macron? Well you'd have to argue how a vote for the neoliberal right now might further the radical leftist cause, which is actually kinda hard, but IMO it's the only way not to fall to the current ideological blackmail. Although still a bit based on "don't vote Le Pen", Yanis Varoufakis had a piece yesterday in Le Monde in which he shares a positive side of Macron: English: https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2017...e-in-mediapart/ French: http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2017/05/02/yanis-varoufakis-emmanuel-macron-a-voulu-sauver-la-grece-votez-pour-lui_5120673_3232.html I like his warning: Yanis Varoufakis posted:I shall mobilise fully to help you beat Le Pen with the same strength that I shall be joining the next Nuit Debout to oppose your government when, and if, you, as President, attempt to continue with your dead-end, already-failed neoliberalism.
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May 3, 2017 18:23
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