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Fabulousvillain posted:Beato and Lambda: You can't be a cruel witch all the time.  I was only joking when I said this.
Fabulousvillain fucked around with this message at 17:22 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 17:18
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You think this is a motherfucking game?
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May 1, 2017 17:55
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resurgam40 posted:( *Looks at your AV* Well, I guess we'll find out.
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May 1, 2017 18:20
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I'm just trying to find how love fits into this new relationship between neo-Beato and Battler. Because if there isn't, it's gonna be Kinzo all over again, I feel.
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May 1, 2017 18:33
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So Battler has created a blank slate young woman in the hopes of raising her to be a duplicate of the Beatrice that died. He's really taking the wrong lessons from his grandfather, huh?ProfessorProf posted:
The previous Ange parts have had some good bits of insight relevant to my personal life, but this one... this really hits close to home. 
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May 1, 2017 18:43
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resurgam40 posted:And drat, Battler... I don't know where you're going with this, but I don't like it. The story has been drawing parallels between you and Kinzo pretty much from the word "go," but I would have hoped there would have been some significant space in the development between "gets a cape" and "locks up a pretty girl in a room for nefarious purposes"... and you really could have gone another way, you know. (Like, not locking up blonde girls and putting them in frilly dresses, for instance. ZiegeDame posted:So Battler has created a blank slate young woman in the hopes of raising her to be a duplicate of the Beatrice that died. He's really taking the wrong lessons from his grandfather, huh? I don't think that's his intent at all, though. Here's how I'm reading it: He wants Beatrice back. He uses ~endless magic~ or whatever (ugh) to attempt to resurrect her as she was. It sortofkinda works, just not as he intended. This young Beatrice appeared, instead. He's a bit distraught at this, and doesn't want this one around, because I imagine that constantly seeing the face of someone you care for but it's not actually them can't be all that pleasant. So he tries to keep her away from him by telling her to stay in her room. Is this a good action on his part? Hell no, he's punishing her for something that's not at all her fault. But has he "[locked] up a pretty girl in a room for nefarious purposes"? I'm not seeing it. I mean, it might end up going that way, this just seems a bit too quick to jump to the most negative conclusion, imo.
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May 1, 2017 19:13
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lotus circle posted:You think this is a motherfucking game? Yes. oath2order posted:*Looks at your AV* Well, I guess we'll find out.  I don't think Battler is quite off the deep end yet, but definitely standing on the slippery slope towards being Kinzo 2.0.
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May 1, 2017 20:02
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I swear, if this turns out to be some time travel thing and Battler is his own grandfather I'm going to be pissed
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May 1, 2017 20:55
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Graylien posted:I swear, if this turns out to be some time travel thing and Battler is his own grandfather I'm going to be pissed I think it's less that and more a reflection of Kinzo. Kinzo created a sort of distorted reflection which was projected onto his children, and Battler reflects Rudolf in a way that might just approach Kinzo again. So this brings a new look onto that first section from last update. The other question, I suppose, is wondering if that is only chick-Beatrice, or whether that was something that happened to human-Beatrice at some point as well.
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May 1, 2017 22:30
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Oooh Battler is pulling a Kinzo and hosed up. I think he knows too.
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May 2, 2017 02:12
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This is... gross. I wonder if this Beatrice is supposed to be a reversion of the culprit, instead of just Beato specifically: a version of Sayo without all of the masks she carries. That could explain why the characters express such a mix of revulsion and pity toward her.
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May 2, 2017 03:46
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Regardless of whether you guys are right or wrong, I expected Umineko would have taught you a thing or two about jumping to conclusions by now
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May 2, 2017 05:58
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I mean, this could be part of some sorta next-level mind games Battler is pulling on the witches, but it's Battler we're talking about here
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May 2, 2017 06:12
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tiistai posted:Regardless of whether you guys are right or wrong, I expected Umineko would have taught you a thing or two about jumping to conclusions by now And yet we are seldom punished for imagining the worst outcome possible. Besides... the things you say don't often turn out true.
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May 2, 2017 13:14
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resurgam40 posted:And yet we are seldom punished for imagining the worst outcome possible. Besides... the things you say don't often turn out true. That's not true. Magic is definitely real.
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May 2, 2017 15:08
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resurgam40 posted:And yet we are seldom punished for imagining the worst outcome possible. Besides... the things you say don't often turn out true. Good, that means the reverse psychology is working
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May 2, 2017 21:29
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tiistai posted:Good, that means the reverse psychology is working Honestly, I still have hope for Battler, that he won't do what Kinzo did and try to make his own homegrown Beato. Maybe it's part of a plan to get Beato back into the game. Though, considering the cold opening, it either fails or works at the last minute. Considering this is Battler, probably the former.
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May 2, 2017 21:45
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bman in 2288 posted:Honestly, I still have hope for Battler, that he won't do what Kinzo did and try to make his own homegrown Beato. Maybe it's part of a plan to get Beato back into the game. Yeah, I'm not finding any fault with this theory of Battler failing. Remember who we're talking about here. Skylight fucked around with this message at 04:58 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 02:43
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Skylight posted:Yeah, I'm not finding any fault with this theory of Battler failing. Remember who we're talking about here. So... Do you think Erika would ever cook for Battler? Or would she more likely just throw him into a closet somewhere and "forget" where she put the key?
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May 3, 2017 07:37
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I've been away for a while and wanted to talk about how awesome Gohda and Natsuhi are in the TIPS section but now I've caught up to the rest of the backlog and it's fantastic!  ZiegeDame posted:So Battler has created a blank slate young woman in the hopes of raising her to be a duplicate of the Beatrice that died. He's really taking the wrong lessons from his grandfather, huh? Cyouni posted:I think it's less that and more a reflection of Kinzo. Kinzo created a sort of distorted reflection which was projected onto his children, and Battler reflects Rudolf in a way that might just approach Kinzo again. Cycles of abuse and trauma seem to definitely be a go here.  Going with Cyouni's supposition here that human-Beatrices (OG Beatrice and 1967 Beatrice) did experience a similar past that we're seeing with Babby Beatrice. However, trying to recreate the conditions that led to a Beatrice being formed without consideration towards the original Beatrice's personality/identity(?)/internal gestalt shows that Kinzo is just going through the motions. A summoner Kinzo is sure, but actually having magic/love? Nah. It can not be seen.
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May 3, 2017 08:02
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More evidence that the Ushiromiya's, as a family, cannot be trusted with any sort of power, ever. EagerSleeper posted:Cycles of abuse and trauma seem to definitely be a go here. This is very twisted, but makes a lot of sense. That said, Battler hasn't shown many signs of being a psychopath thus far, so I'm withdrawing judgement.
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May 3, 2017 08:27
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CottonWolf posted:
He did kind of end the last chapter by arguing that he had killed 6 people. It was mostly a thought experiment, but still.
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May 3, 2017 09:21
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 So, this study in the world of nonhumans belonged to the master of the game board... and was a place where he could look down upon the humans... Therefore, it was understandable that one might mistake the imposing, robe-clad man in the center of the study for Kinzo, if only for a second. It wasn't Kinzo. This was Battler, the one who had taken up the position of Game Master and become the new territory lord of this world.  Around Battler was a swirl of glowing Fragments, sparkling like the night sky, and on the floor was what appeared to be a red magic circle. To an outsider, it would have appeared to be nothing more than an incomprehensible geometric shape. But to Battler, who stood at its center, it was the outline for a new tale... A new line grew across the magic circle, following Battler's gaze. Then, at the instant it connected with a complicated symbol, the entire magic circle flashed brightly.  BGM: Steady Pace  "It is splendid, Master. The 6th game is complete."As Battler wiped his forehead and finally relaxed, Genji, who was standing behind him and watching over his every move, nodded deeply in response.  "...I always thought being a Game Master meant you could make the tale however you want, but this is seriously harder than I thought it'd be." "You must write up multiple tales and make the inner and outer sides of the story match. And yet, you have displayed such skill, It is hard to believe that this is your first time... I believe even Erika-sama will be satisfied with this game." "Well, hopefully it matches that great detective's tastes." "...Still, I've got to honestly respect Beato now. I can hardly believe that she managed to make tales that complicated and do it so easily." "...It was not easy. Beatrice-sama also worried and worried, and each time she created a tale, she would then worry over various contradictions. She was constantly battling with logic errors." "Logic errors?" "It is the greatest and worst form of error that the witch side can make, and one which must always be avoided." "So Beato, got close to bumping into those several times in her games...?" "...She fought with them every time she created a game. I believe it grew even more difficult for her as you became a more effective opponent." "...So, do you think this game I've made... is good enough to show Beato?" "...Yes. Of course." "...Beato, hasn't woken up yet, has she?" "..." BGM: Voiceless After remaining silent for a while longer, Genji answered. "...She woke up three days ago. You were concentrating on the construction of the 6th game, so I decided to wait before telling you... My sincere apologies..." Battler's face broke into a smile. There was no trace in his expression of the hatred he had once felt towards Beato for murdering his family...  BGM: Dead Angle  "Yes. When Battler reached the truth, there was a great change in his impression of Beato." "So, should we assume that there really was something between Onii-chan and Beato, that he forgot all about it...?"However, Battler suspected this in the 4th game and asked Beato about it. According to the tale, this was denied by the red truth: 'Six years ago, no person called Beatrice existed for Battler'... "...We can read this as saying that Beato did not exist six years ago, or it could simply mean that she had no connection to Battler at that time. However, either way, Battler did not visit Rokkenjima at all for the next six years..." "October 4th, 1986 should have been the first time Beatrice and Onii-chan met. If so, why was there already some kind of antagonism between them? I don't have a clue what it means." "...That 'Ushiromiya Battler's sin', which Beato questioned Battler about in the 4th game, might give us a clue. The result of that might have been Beatrice herself." "The result? The result of Onii-chan's sin was... Beato...?"That almost sounds as though Onii-chan created the witch called Beatrice himself...   "...Huh...?" "Battler sinned six years ago. Because of that sin, people died. The killer was Beatrice. If you consider the possibility that everything is connected to Battler's sin six years ago, then the one who created Beatrice was Battler himself. I thought it sounded almost as though she was Battler's piece..." "I don't get it. If Onii-chan sinned in some way, it must have been something much lighter than murder, at the very least. If someone caused this huge massacre in retaliation for that, that's totally out of proportion." "Beato killed our family. Dad, Mom, Onii-chan, everyone. I can't believe that Onii-chan's sin was anything deserving of that." "The weight of a sin depends on the person measuring it. Even a sin so light that Battler might have forgotten, could have been so serious to Beato that she hated him enough to massacre his whole family a full six years after the fact. Well, even I think that a bit excessive, and more importantly, if she were a person like that, I would find it hard to accept that Battler would act so friendly towards her after discovering the truth..." "..."Featherine's observation was extremely interesting. In a past game, Beato clearly said that Onii-chan's sin six years ago was the cause of this two day tragedy. I still don't know what kind of sin that was. However, he figured it out at the end of the 5th game, and he even apologized to Beato. Even though she was the witch who had massacred his entire family in retaliation for his sin of six years previous, Battler apologized to her. ...Of course, it was the player Battler who apologized, not the piece Battler whose family had been murdered over and over again. But even so, Battler must have remembered something at the end of the last game that made him feel like apologizing...  "...I have already formed a theory about it." "Oh? Let me hear it." "Heheheheheh, I can't tell you yet. I want to enjoy being the only one who knows the answer for a little while longer..." "...Well then, I guess I'm done reading for you." "Hahaha, well, we can't have that, can we? Have some patience and read a bit further. My theory is still nothing more than a guess. Once I'm certain of it, I'll tell you." "Okay, okay, my master. I actually do want to hear what comes next, after all."Just what kind of connection do Onii-chan and Beatrice have with each other? Understanding that will probably give me a massive clue towards finding the truth of this world. After all, because he remembered that, he was able to reach the truth.  BGM: Worldend  This place was a villa set aside for Beatrice's use. It was a sacred site for her only, built so that she could spend her days without being affected by the outside world. My heart began to race. I'm so glad that she was able to revive... and that everything's okay... Beato is a personification of the rules. So, even though she was destroyed once, it is possible for her to be reborn again... Battler had quickly succeeded in reviving Beato's body, but he had had trouble summoning her soul back. However, during the time he had spent immersed in the creation of the 6th game, she had woken up. And this had happened three days ago. Battler let himself be led into the dining hall. The dining hall had been set up for his and Beato's use. It existed so that they could enjoy some black tea while discussing the truth, now that he had finally reached all of it.  I want to tell Beato that I've found the truth. Battler couldn't hold back his excitement over this miracle he had been granted, that Beato was waiting for him in the dining hall to hear what he had to say...  "How is Beatrice? Same as usual? Is she in high spirits?" "Oh yes, she is in very high spirits now. She has been waiting for you all this time, Master. Oh yes." "Is she in the dining hall? Is she eating or something? Ah, that's alright, it doesn't matter either way...!" "Hohoho, you'll be surprised..." "Beatrice...!!"When he swung open the doors to the dining hall, Battler was greeted by a wonderful sight. Though the food laid out on the table wasn't particularly sensational, it was arranged beautifully, and a champagne bottle stood there waiting.  BGM: Future  "...B, Beatrice..." "You have my sincerest gratitude for giving me this form." "Ha, hahahaha... Come on, don't worry about that... I'm so glad... Beato..."Battler rushed up to Beato and hugged her tightly. Just to make sure her body wasn't just mist or an illusion.  "...I am right here... I will not disappear..." "It's okay, you can stop talking like that. I'm not going to ask you for anything in return. Anyway, I want to apologize. And I want to talk with you. I don't even know where I should start." "You have done nothing that you need to apologize for, Father. I'm glad just to be of service to you." BGM: None  "Beatrice was born for your sake, Father. Please, let me support you. And Father. Congratulations on completing the 6th game." "I told you, stop talking like that. It's totally creepy." "...Do you find this style of speech displeasing? Please forgive my rudeness..." "Well, I don't 'find it displeasing', but it's not like you. I guess I like the way you usually talk best." "..."Beato smiled vaguely. To Battler, it probably looked as though they were both smiling over the same joke. However, Beato's smile was literally vague and uncertain. After all... she didn't know how she was supposed to talk...  "Anyway, Beato. Just what kind of joke is this? Don't tell me that the great Beatrice-sama decided to cook for me...?" "When I heard that you had completed the 6th game, I wanted to see if I could prepare a modest reward to congratulate you..." "...Hohoho. Beatrice-sama really worked hard to make this. I didn't even need to lend a hand at all, no I didn't!"The food set on the table really was modest and inexpertly made. You could tell by looking at it that Beato, who wasn't particularly skilled with cooking, had given it her all when making it... However, signs of discomfort and irritation were beginning to appear on Battler's face...   "Oh yes, as she said, Beatrice-sama decided that she would like to congratulate..."Sweat was starting to show up on Kumasawa's forehead... She was also feeling uneasy. When he noticed, Battler realized that it wasn't just his imagination. Beato turned her back to Battler and stuck a corkscrew into the champagne bottle. Then, she showed it to Battler.  "Father, congratulations on the completion of the 6th game. In the hopes that you will prove victorious over your longtime rival, Furudo Erika..." When presented with a champagne bottle and a sound like that, anyone would think that the cork had been pulled out. However, it wasn't the cork... it was the bottom of the bottle. The high-quality champagne that Beato had procured splashed out all over the floor and her dress. Then, the same sound repeated several more times. Each time, one of the plates of food on the table was knocked into the air. "F... Father... did you find the food displeasing...?" BGM: Mother "...I, I am Beatrice. I was born for your sake, Father..." "That's not right..." "Huh...?" "Who is this?! This isn't Beato...!! And anyway, don't call me Father...!! What's going on here?! What is this?! Didn't I revive Beato?! Genji, what's this all about?!!" "...My apologies, but that is indeed Beatrice-sama." "Are you kidding me?! ow is this supposed to be Beato?! She's totally wrong, a fake!!" "No, that is Beatrice-sama. It is, without a doubt, Beatrice-sama, who was born in accordance with the rules of the game board." "No, this isn't anything like Beato...!! Beato would always talk in this weird way, she'd laugh rudely, and more, and more...!!" "No, this is most certainly Beatrice-sama herself." "Then why is she talking like that? Why is she calling me Father?!" "B, Beatrice-sama was only born a short while ago... It would be far too cruel to expect her to act as she once did so soon..." "Are you saying that her memory hasn't returned yet?" "...Master. This person is definitely Beatrice-sama herself. However, she is not the Beatrice-sama you know so well." "What are you talking about...?! I'm the Game Master, right?! Why can't I revive Beato...?!" "Oh yes, she most certainly has revived. However, the old Beatrice-sama had lived for a thousand years. This Beatrice-sama, on the other hand, was only born a short while ago...! If she appears to be a different person, well, that just can't be helped...!" "Then, how can I revive that Beato?! Her body is right here! How can I revive her soul?!" "...If she lives the same thousand year life again, she should become the same Beatrice-sama she was before." "So I'm supposed to wait a thousand years...?!" "A, a person's personality isn't decided solely by their birth. It can change drastically based on how they live and what they experience..." BGM: Love Examination "I get it. Even if you had two of the exact same person, they could change enormously depending on their upbringing." "Even though they might both be the same human to start with, their upbringing could change them so much that they effectively become two completely different people. Usually, we use the term 'person' to refer to a person, not their personality. However, since humans recognize a person by their personality, those two might as well be different people, from a human perspective..." "...That's so true. If that tragedy 12 years ago hadn't happened, this Lady would be a cute girl who could smile without looking weird." "That's rude. As if I'm not totally cute as it is."...I understand.  At the very least... I'm a completely different person than I used to be 12 years ago. And if my family had come home 12 years ago, then the Ange that resulted would surely be a completely different person from me. Even the same human can become different people. In fact, depending on their upbringing and endless possibilities, they can become an endless number of different people. ...So, just because this is the same Beato, that's no guarantee that she'll be the Beato that Onii-chan knows so well. "And on top of that, Beatrice is a witch who lived a thousand years. Given just three days, people can die or be reborn. A thousand years... is just too long." "...It seems you're quite a skilled reader. For most of my readers, it would be necessary to spend several hundred pages to explain how a single person, can become different people depending on their upbringing and time." "Don't underestimate your readers. We aren't just reading. We read... and we think." "...If I make a hundred people read it, only 90 people will actually be able to. However, only 50 will actually understand what it means. And not even 20 will actually think beyond that. And all I ask is that they think it over a bit. Nothing more than that. *giggle*" "However, it seems that 'you' are one of those precious 20 readers... That's why I invited you here, child of man..."It was hard to actually like this Hachijo Toya person. However, though this forgery she had written was still in its first stages, it definitely felt as though it had something very similar to the tales in those message bottles. Speaking metaphorically, one might call it a scent. An indescribable stern atmosphere, like a stuffy library. The 'Beatrice' who wrote the message bottles and Hachijo Toya are different people. And yet, this has the same scent as that tale... ...I see. This is why some of those curious Witch Hunters are so intensely devoted to her... Their keen sense of smell was able to sniff out that familiar scent...  "I guess it's true that writers are always starving for opinions on their works. However, sorry to disappoint you, I don't have time to read all the way through this thick manuscript. More importantly..." "...And yet, you have plenty of time..."Both the second hand and the pendulum on the ornate clock behind Hachijo had been moving the whole time. However, absolutely no time had passed for a while now. Only about three minutes had gone by since the time she had entered the room... "See? Time isn't something you have to worry about. You won't run out of time until after you've finished reading..." "..." "Next page, Lady, next page."Amakusa badgered me to turn the page, so I returned to the world of the tale once more.  BGM: None Is it because... she actually has reached the truth, as she claims? Does this mean that anyone who knows the truth could create an endless number of message bottles? Is that what the cat box world is like...? I see. I guess she might also be an Endless Witch. In fact, maybe anyone who knows the truth can become an Endless Witch. An endless tale, created by the Endless Witches. The two days starting on October 4th, 1986, where my family is being toyed with endlessly. ...I have to end it. I have to find a hint of the truth from within this story... and end this endless tale.   "..." "Well, you're not the type to give me an honest compliment anyway, are you... You'd probably say something more like 'not bad for an incompetent fool like you'." "*cackle*cackle* Not bad for an incompetent fool like you." "Heh. Now that I've seen what it's like to be a Game Master, I understand everything. You really had to work hard during each and every game." "..." "'Creating a game is not such an easy thing. To think the day would come when we would both congratulate each other like this.'" BGM: String Trio Short in F Sharp Major  "...All wrong... This... isn't Beato..."Battler slammed hard on the desk, but the piece Beato showed no reaction. After all, Battler hadn't ordered her to react. It was easy to revive that Beato as a piece. However, it would only move according to Battler's wishes. Having a conversation with it... was no different from talking to himself... The Game Master could summon any kind of piece. He could move those pieces in any way he wanted, reigning as an absolute god. However, for that very reason, they were just pieces. That made it unbelievably lonely... and sad.   "'But that's wrong.'" "You were... unbelievably lonely." "'It must have been such a relief for you to have an opponent in me who could actually go against you. I'm painfully aware of that now.'" "...That weird, polite Beato... she was you, right? The way you were a thousand years ago." "'However, she is a separate person.'" "The way she looks just like you is what I really can't get over...! I can't stand it..." "'However, she isn't a piece, so she can go against my will.'" "Unlike the piece you are, that Beato is much more alive. I acknowledge that! But it's all wrong!! That isn't you! She's a completely separate person, like a long-lost little sister or something! And that's why... I just can't accept her...!!"...As much as he hated this piece Beato... Battler felt an even stronger dislike... for the 'chick' Beato. Even after a whole thousand years... She still wouldn't become the original Beato. Even if she were ordered to act like the original Beato, it would just be an imitation. This was a very similar but separate person, and definitely not Beato herself. ...So, in the previous game, Beato really did disappear for all eternity... Even after becoming the Game Master, there was no way to revive her... "...Laugh. Laugh at how pathetic I am." Just give it a rest already...  
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 03:46 on May 4, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 13:33
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Profiles page updated.
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May 3, 2017 13:37
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Qrr posted:He did kind of end the last chapter by arguing that he had killed 6 people. It was mostly a thought experiment, but still. He argued that he could have killed them, not that he did. He was providing reasonable doubt for Natsuhi.
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May 3, 2017 14:14
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Oh, god. He is treading Kinzo's path, if not for exactly the same reasons: Kinzo tried to "remake" the Beatrice of his youth through "magic" (and what that entailed, I don't really want to think about now  ) out of desire, like Battler is doing now with actual magic (or whatever) out of guilt. Both of these are understandable, and Battler's reason is infinitely more relatable, but goddamn- to take some poor innocent girl and just project your will, your desire of who she should be on her, is awful... and totally unhealthy for all parties involved.Hm. Putting it in those terms puts me in mind of something else far more mundane: a baby's birth, and the expectations that come upon the baby by the parents. The common refrain, when one asks the parents what they hope for in their new baby's life, is that they just wish for the child's happiness, but dig a little deeper, and more complicated feelings arise: that the child will be healthy, that they will get good grades, that they will find an ideal (and hopefully loaded) partner in life, and that that partner will in turn provide other children... perhaps the kid will go into the profession of one of the parents or grand parents, or perhaps another profession one of the parents always wanted to do but couldn't, that they might become rich, become famous... or at the very least, that they won't make the same mistakes the parents did in their youth. So they impress these expectations onto the child, often without meaning to, and complications arise: perhaps the expectations of one parent are in conflict with the expectations of the other, or maybe there is extended family projecting their own expectations, or perhaps society as a whole is pressing down with their own stereotypes and opinions. And of course, once the child finishes self actualization and becomes a young adult, they often find that they have their own expectations of what to do with their life, thank you very much, and given that they are the ones actually living the life all of the other people I mentioned are attempting to dictate, well... shouldn't the final decision be theirs? I'm digressing a bit by now, but I do wonder whether Ryukishi07 is using this moment in the story to illustrate the problem just vomiting your hope expectation, guilt and baggage onto somebody who had nothing to do with any of that, family ties or no. Your children are not your children, and alla that. But seriously, Battler: I get that you would feel guilty about how things turned out in the end, but this is gross. It's gross, and cruel, and unhealthy for the both of you... and it won't help you process your grief the way it should. You saw the example in your grandpa; you know what happens to somebody who lets their regrets fester, and warp, and turn into pain they don't know what to do with. Just because you can apparently wiggle your fingers and reshape reality now doesn't mean that you can fix your mistakes, or make other people be the person you want them to be; even the gods cannot control love or the human heart. And that, sirrah, is what comes of gallivanting around in a cape. Now take it off. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 14:59
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The way I see it, God's the only one who can control anything. The fact that Battler can't even change the way someone feels with a snap of his fingers really shows the limited power he really wields. And that frustrates the hell out of him, because all he wants is to bring Beato back and apologize, but he can't even accomplish that. It's not (directly) his incompetency's fault anymore. I'm really reading the logic error as some sort of foreshadowing about Beato. Maybe she'll come back, maybe Piece-Beato will save him, maybe he'll be married to Erika for the rest of the story because he's incompetent. Also, I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding what's happening in '98. Where, specifically, is Ange and Amasuka (assuming he's actually there)?
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May 3, 2017 15:59
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May 3, 2017 16:14
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Man, Battler really does seem to be retracing Kinzo's path. Since chick-Beatrice isn't what he expected, he looks like he's trying to revisit the sins of the grandfather to get as close an approximation as he can get. That's the only interpretation I can draw, at least, and it's not a very pleasant one. it does seem to follow the whole "cycles of abuse" theme that we saw in the rest of the game, though.bman in 2288 posted:Also, I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding what's happening in '98. Where, specifically, is Ange and Amasuka (assuming he's actually there)? '98 is really weird because that section is occupying two parts of reality at the same time. There's one worldline where Ange went to Rokkenjima (presumably found a second/a repaired Sakutarou) and died and one where she met Hachijo Toya. The two aren't compatible. Which I suppose brings to mind the question: is '98 even happening, or is it simply a logical construction to show a differing perspective for more information?
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May 3, 2017 16:41
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Cyouni posted:'98 is really weird because that section is occupying two parts of reality at the same time. There's one worldline where Ange went to Rokkenjima (presumably found a second/a repaired Sakutarou) and died and one where she met Hachijo Toya. The two aren't compatible. Which I suppose brings to mind the question: is '98 even happening, or is it simply a logical construction to show a differing perspective for more information? I think we're at the fourth meta-level alredy, this is honestly gtting riddiculous. Beyond the "game board" of Rokkenjima '86 we've got the "shallow" meta-layer where the meta-pieces hang out (we saw it when Erika was trying to disprove Kinzo's exstence), the main meta-level where the players and witches do their things, Ange's trip through '98 Rokkkenjima and now meta-Ange and Featherine apparently observing all of that. resurgam40 posted:Oh, god. He is treading Kinzo's path, if not for exactly the same reasons: Kinzo tried to "remake" the Beatrice of his youth through "magic" (and what that entailed, I don't really want to think about now I don't think it's quite as bad as you're seing it- note that we've actually seen two different Beatrices in this update. One is the reborn blank slate Beatrice who came to be as a consequence of Battler making a new game as a "personification of the rules" which to me implies that as long as someone makes a new game, there always will be a Beatrice. She's the one he later makes return to her room after she meets the witches. The one we see Battler trying to make resemble the old Beatrice is just a piece controlled entirely by the Game Master, essentially just a cardboard cutout Battler's makng to speak with Beatrice's voice.
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May 3, 2017 17:44
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Came here to post this. (I still waiting for the Sayo people to point to the evidence that shows her feelings for George are all a lie.) -- Something new to mull over here is what could Battler have possibly figured out that would make him want to be friendly with the person who murdered his whole family. The first thing to spring to mind is that Beato didn't actually murder anyone, in which case everything we've seen was just murder mystery fiction written for his entertainment. Which I suppose from the perspective of player-Battler it actually is. But it implies there's a world (or fragment) where nobody was actually murdered, but maybe just a gas-leaked caused and explosion that killed everyone? Maybe Battler has been stuck on Rokkenjima for 12 years reading mystery novels? My brain keeps going back to Higurashi where the mystery itself is pretty much solved by the end of episode 7, and episode 8 is just finding the best possible outcome with that knowledge. Will the final game board open with Battler walking up to the culprit, giving them a big hug, and apologizing? If Battler had remembered his sin from the beginning, could this tragedy have been prevented?
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May 3, 2017 17:48
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ZiegeDame posted:Came here to post this. (I still waiting for the Sayo people to point to the evidence that shows her feelings for George are all a lie.) To be clear, I don't think that her feelings for George are a lie. I think it's more complicated than that. If my theory is correct, Sayo loves three people: George, Jessica, and Battler. Three facets of Sayo each love a single person, and the tragedy is that none of those three truly understand who she is. In the fragments, she is able to kill one or the other because those facets, being in conflict, have no problem killing the object of another's desire. Alternately, they are able to stow away their love in service of the greater goal. I'm not sure which is more feasible to be honest, but I can see both applying here.
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May 3, 2017 17:56
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Tender Child Loins posted:To be clear, I don't think that her feelings for George are a lie. I think it's more complicated than that. If my theory is correct, Sayo loves three people: George, Jessica, and Battler. Three facets of Sayo each love a single person, and the tragedy is that none of those three truly understand who she is. In the fragments, she is able to kill one or the other because those facets, being in conflict, have no problem killing the object of another's desire. Alternately, they are able to stow away their love in service of the greater goal. I'm not sure which is more feasible to be honest, but I can see both applying here. Wait, you're still going with the Shannon=Kannon theory? I'm pretty sure Erika has seen them together in the same room last episode and she was confirmed to have been our objective viewpoint for the sixth game.
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May 3, 2017 18:16
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Aumanor, this is what convinced me. Kanon and Shannon appear in the same room throughout episode 5, but if you notice the language in the narrative, it looks like Battler is actually the POV. He placed Shannon behind her, outside of her view. You can also see that in the fact that he "saw" the dead bodies during the first twilight, while Erika did not. Her objectivity doesn't really matter if she's not confirmed as actually observing a given scene.ProfessorProf posted:The number of humans on this island has returned to 18... 'I' glanced around at the humans in the parlor. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:30 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 18:28
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Tender Child Loins posted:To be clear, I don't think that her feelings for George are a lie. I think it's more complicated than that. If my theory is correct, Sayo loves three people: George, Jessica, and Battler. Three facets of Sayo each love a single person, and the tragedy is that none of those three truly understand who she is. In the fragments, she is able to kill one or the other because those facets, being in conflict, have no problem killing the object of another's desire. Alternately, they are able to stow away their love in service of the greater goal. I'm not sure which is more feasible to be honest, but I can see both applying here. At the end of episode 4, Beatrice says in red (sorta) "Why am I unable to love anyone."
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May 3, 2017 18:31
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ZiegeDame posted:At the end of episode 4, Beatrice says in red (sorta) "Why am I unable to love anyone." Yeah, I think that counts. Though it's arguably not a statement and more of a question, so it's not clear in what sense it has to be true. Cyouni posted:'98 is really weird because that section is occupying two parts of reality at the same time. There's one worldline where Ange went to Rokkenjima (presumably found a second/a repaired Sakutarou) and died and one where she met Hachijo Toya. The two aren't compatible. Which I suppose brings to mind the question: is '98 even happening, or is it simply a logical construction to show a differing perspective for more information? I think alt-98 isn't happening at this point. Ange seems to acknowledge that she never met Toya. Unless that's an alternate Ange. Also possible. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:37 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 18:35
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CottonWolf posted:Yeah, I think that counts. Though it's arguably not a statement and more of a question, so it's not clear in what sense it has to be true. It has to at least mean that Beatrice thinks she is incapable of love, which is a thing Kanon frets over a lot and Shannon does not.
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May 3, 2017 18:44
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ZiegeDame posted:At the end of episode 4, Beatrice says in red (sorta) "Why am I unable to love anyone." It's weird. I kind of feel like maybe my arguments only make sense to me because they feel really true to me on an emotional and psychological level. I think this way of living and framing one's world is possible because I've done it—am doing it. I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way that makes sense to people who aren't like me?
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May 3, 2017 18:48
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Tender Child Loins posted:It's weird. I kind of feel like maybe my arguments only make sense to me because they feel really true to me on an emotional and psychological level. I think this way of living and framing one's world is possible because I've done it—am doing it. I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way that makes sense to people who aren't like me? I think projecting yourself onto the characters makes total sense. I mean, there's a reason I jumped straight to an explanation where Beatrice is a trans woman. 
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May 3, 2017 18:56
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ZiegeDame posted:It has to at least mean that Beatrice thinks she is incapable of love, which is a thing Kanon frets over a lot and Shannon does not. But if different personalities are different people that might not matter. Beatrice is incapable of love, Shannon is capable, and if they're in the same body that could still hold true.
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May 3, 2017 19:08
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