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Oh dear me posted:I thought I was an impatient person, but what with things like these and the reaction to election results where little has changed except for UKIP's collapse, I really wonder if short-termism isn't the left's biggest problem now. We need to put in years of work. It's not going to pay off immediately. Didn't we always know that? The problem is that since the 90's the idea has pervaded politics that ideology is no longer relevant and you don't need to believe in things, it's just a case of getting your message across, controlling the media and putting things in a nice package. The problem is that if people don't like the underlying thing you're selling, no amount of gussying it up is going to make people vote for you. People aren't accustomed to the idea that you have to do grinding activism to try and convince people that your ideology is right, which is how you get things like the Hillary campaign and ideas that reading Slate and Jezebel are replacements for actual activism. The good news is that the Labour party itself seems pretty energised in the short term - even if the general goes as badly as these rounds of locals (i'm a lot less hopeful than I was this morning) the party itself should continue pointing in a good direction even if Corbyn gets replaced with a centrist. Certainly the number of left wing candidates getting put into winnable seats by the NEC is a good view. I mean these local election results are bad, don't get me wrong, but if you want to see what sticking to the centre gets you look at PS in France, PvdA in the Netherlands or the complete tire fire that is the US Democrats. Things could be a lot worse.
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May 5, 2017 15:07
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Remember when Scots posters claimed the death of Scottish Labour and the rise of the SNP was because they were so left wing. Yeah. This has all ended in tears. Who would have thought? 1. Destroy Labour in order to form massive SNP majority. 2. Fail to achieve independence. 3. Backslide into Toryism. MikeCrotch posted:I mean these local election results are bad, don't get me wrong, but if you want to see what sticking to the centre gets you look at PS in France, PvdA in the Netherlands or the complete tire fire that is the US Democrats. Things could be a lot worse. Depends how far the Tories go with Brexit. If they stick to their ideology it might not be so bad. A small erosion to worker rights here, a lowering of taxes for the upper classes there but life continues as normal. If they really go for it and just start turning us into libertaria then we could win the race to the bottom. They have the chance to outright remove all regulation because we don't have any of our own. All our environmental and pollution regulations are EU. They can turn this country into a polluted hellscape within ten years. It's all down to how they plan to handle Brexit and whether or not the ultimate agenda is making us into a deregulated tax haven or merely rolling back the clock to 1980's Britain. Regarde Aduck fucked around with this message at 15:14 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 15:09
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Labour are now down 300 seats. Before the GE was called commentators were saying if Labour lost 100 seats in these local elections then Corbyn would be in trouble, god knows how the rest of the PLP will be at present given its going to be around 400 seat loses once its done.
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May 5, 2017 15:13
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Regarde Aduck posted:Remember when Scots posters claimed the death of Scottish Labour and the rise of the SNP was because they were so left wing. Yeah. This has all ended in tears. Who would have thought? There's this really persistent myth that Scotland is inherently left wing, but the tories were strongly represented across Scotland for most of the 20th century, often having near parity in voteshare with Labour. It was really only Thatcher that murdered their support there, but now I suppose people are old enough to have forgotten or young enough not to remember.
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May 5, 2017 15:15
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Undead Hippo posted:Sadly, yes. Looking at this from the perspective of building a winning coalition, it's largely Corbyn's fault. The Tories feel safe on the centre, so have rhetorically gone after the right wing voters who had been choosing UKIP. Early indications are that this is working really loving well. If Jeremy Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, then the Tories would have to contend with the possibility of their centrist voters deserting them if they went too right wing. But as it stands, the Tories have maintained their centrist coalition and cannibalized their right wing rivals. It shouldn't have been possible to do both, but Corbyn (and the anaemic Lib-Dems) allowed them to by not presenting a credible centrist alternative. A friend who predicted (and won a bet at 100-1 odds) on Corbyn's 2015 win predicted that in 2020 Labour's vote share will have fallen under 10% and the party will be on its third leader in three years. I'm too timid to say likely, but it isn't impossible.
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May 5, 2017 15:17
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It's bizarre how many seats the tories are winning with a small increase in vote share. I guess this is 30% labour vs 20% tory and 20% ukip turning into 40% tory.
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May 5, 2017 15:20
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Regarde Aduck posted:Remember when Scots posters claimed the death of Scottish Labour and the rise of the SNP was because they were so left wing. Yeah. This has all ended in tears. Who would have thought? Actually it's because 2014 Labour's neoliberalism allied itself with the Tories and because Unionism is an inherently conservative position, making the Tories the de facto party of the Union. It's not a credit to the Tories, it's a credit to the polarisation of constitutional debate and Scotland that will not stop until independence is achieved.
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May 5, 2017 15:21
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spectralent posted:It's bizarre how many seats the tories are winning with a small increase in vote share. I guess this is 30% labour vs 20% tory and 20% ukip turning into 40% tory. first past the post is fun
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May 5, 2017 15:21
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Coohoolin posted:Actually it's because 2014 Labour's neoliberalism allied itself with the Tories and because Unionism is an inherently conservative position, making the Tories the de facto party of the Union. It's not a credit to the Tories, it's a credit to the polarisation of constitutional debate and Scotland that will not stop until independence is achieved. i think an indepedent scotchland will have a conservative party and also be full of cunts
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May 5, 2017 15:21
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Coohoolin posted:Actually it's because 2014 Labour's neoliberalism allied itself with the Tories and because Unionism is an inherently conservative position, making the Tories the de facto party of the Union. It's not a credit to the Tories, it's a credit to the polarisation of constitutional debate and Scotland that will not stop until independence is achieved. "We won't stop voting for Christmas until we vote for Thanksgiving."
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May 5, 2017 15:22
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Coohoolin posted:Actually it's because 2014 Labour's neoliberalism allied itself with the Tories and because Unionism is an inherently conservative position, making the Tories the de facto party of the Union. It's not a credit to the Tories, it's a credit to the polarisation of constitutional debate and Scotland that will not stop until independence is achieved. If neoliberalism is bad why did you join the SNP?
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May 5, 2017 15:25
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spectralent posted:It's bizarre how many seats the tories are winning with a small increase in vote share. I guess this is 30% labour vs 20% tory and 20% ukip turning into 40% tory. Turnout was down so the LE wasn't at 30% Labour I think
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May 5, 2017 15:25
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JFairfax posted:i think an indepedent scotchland will have a conservative party and also be full of cunts Please don't force Coohoolin to defend our honour on our behalf again.
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May 5, 2017 15:26
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Skinty McEdger posted:Please don't force Coohoolin to defend our honour on our behalf again. Coohoolin is just following in his ancestors footsteps of being a swiss mercenary getting involved in other people's fights JFairfax fucked around with this message at 15:28 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 15:26
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The question of Scottish independence will not be settled until Coohoolin graduates.
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May 5, 2017 15:28
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NM. was for just 1 area. Manchester Mayor announcement is happening, but will take ages but Burnham is going to win it in the first round.
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May 5, 2017 15:33
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYgE7O0OLyw britain deserves everything its getting
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May 5, 2017 15:34
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JFairfax posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYgE7O0OLyw I had never considered that our eventual smiting might be so ironic.
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May 5, 2017 15:36
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Gove just on the radio to claim that the Tories general election strategy is not to try and snatch up all the UKIP voters, even as the results today show that's exactly what is happening and all the Conservative advertising so far has entirely been focused on May vs Europe.
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May 5, 2017 15:36
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Kokoro Wish posted:You heard it here first folks. JBrereton belives the mentally ill deserve no representation. What I do think is that Labour, whose role is to protect vulnerable people and create a fairer future for everyone, are on course to lose what parliamentary representation they have largely because Corbyn, who many of them like, is staggeringly unpopular with the majority of voters. And as we have seen in the thread, many of his biggest fans will flatly deny that is the case, or blame the public for not getting it, and I'm sure many will vote in the no doubt upcoming leadership election to back "their man", despite the fact that he is completely unable to deliver what they need in a very real sense, which is a Labour government. This is a big shame. And I wish it wasn't the case. And I'm not trying to be a oval office about it, and I'm sorry if I came off that way. JFairfax posted:lol the UK is full of hateful cunts.
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May 5, 2017 15:40
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ukle posted:Labour are now down 300 seats. Labour predicted to lose hundreds of seats in local elections quote:They forecast nets gains of 115 seats for the Tories and 85 for the Lib Dems, and net losses of 75 for Labour and 105 for Ukip. Yeah, it's interesting to see the predictions not so long ago.
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May 5, 2017 15:42
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jBrereton posted:This is the exact opposite of what I think. the PLP were briefing against him from the moment the leadership election results were announced imagine if we had two years of supportive Parliamentary LAbour Party going into these elections
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May 5, 2017 15:41
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jBrereton posted:This is the exact opposite of what I think. It needs asking again, who would you replace him with? The problems Labour are having run far longer and deeper than Corbyn.
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May 5, 2017 15:43
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Skinty McEdger posted:Gove just on the radio to claim that the Tories general election strategy is not to try and snatch up all the UKIP voters, even as the results today show that's exactly what is happening and all the Conservative advertising so far has entirely been focused on May vs Europe.
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May 5, 2017 15:44
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Spuckuk posted:It needs asking again, who would you replace him with? look at chart C lol 
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May 5, 2017 15:45
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I entirely blame the PLP for being scumbags and undermining Corbyn consistently through his leadership, he never had a fair crack at it and he is too good for the idiotic British people.
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May 5, 2017 15:47
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JFairfax posted:the PLP were briefing against him from the moment the leadership election results were announced I think the second leadership election was a disaster of epic proportions, definitely, but his performance since then despite multiple attempted relaunches and the inevitable policy roll-backs on his most provocative and/or interesting things has just been a shitshow.
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May 5, 2017 15:46
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JFairfax posted:I entirely blame the PLP for being scumbags and undermining Corbyn consistently through his leadership, he never had a fair crack at it and he is too good for the idiotic British people. You can't ignore the effect a steady diet of Daily Mail and Sun articles has on the electorate, as well. Their readership is declining, but their writing is still responsible for what gets talked about on all other British media. A few rich men control our newspapers, they tell the electorate how to vote - in the interest of those same few rich men - and the electorate obliges.
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May 5, 2017 15:49
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https://twitter.com/Politico_Daily/status/860501120178847750
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May 5, 2017 15:51
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jBrereton posted:I think there are limits to how much a supportive PLP would have helped a guy who doesn't think the media is worthy of his time. He didn't have the same established persona as say Trump which helped him manipulate the media by being so against them, he's more like Scargill in that he refuses to play their game in a way they think is petty rather than some kind of four dimensional chess thing. they're loving scumbags and the 2nd leadership election torpedoed any chance of this general election
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May 5, 2017 15:51
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Spuckuk posted:It needs asking again, who would you replace him with? I agree the party has issues, but it doesn't turn them around by going around the houses of the current shadow cabinet looking for more of the same leadership.
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May 5, 2017 15:51
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jBrereton posted:Luciana Berger, why not? shes just given birth
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May 5, 2017 15:51
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she sounds forriegn
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May 5, 2017 15:53
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I think the expectations/demands for PLP loyalty are disingenuous at best, given that a huge part of Corbyn's initial attraction was that he constantly voted against the hated Tony B.Liar (And John Smith, And Kinnock, etc etc..). How can him or McDonnel ever have plausably argued for loyalty? In any case, after Corbyn won the second leadership election the PLP shut up. McDonnel had to make up poo poo about a phantom coup to mobalise the Momentum battalions after the whole whipping for Brexit in parliament threatened to derail the circlewank to oblivion.
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May 5, 2017 15:53
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scum, subhuman scum
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May 5, 2017 15:55
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Tory gains up in Scotland up to 121 seats, mostly taken from Labour. I don't really feel confident in predicting how this is going to turn out for the general in Scotland, outside of saying the Tories have now more or less sown up Dumfries and Galloway.
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May 5, 2017 15:55
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Oh dear me posted:Developing a campaigning organization takes time. I'm a 'new' Labour member (actually, like many others, an old member who rejoined). Accompanied by other 'new' members, I've done leafleting for these local elections. But we've had no support or encouragement from old members at any point, though we've sat through less active old members moaning on about the lack of action from new members while we were right there. We've talked about ways we can strengthen the local party - for example by making an effort to actually meet and talk to our new members at least once - but it cannot happen overnight. If Corbyn doesn't resign immediately after the General Election I think the party will split.
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May 5, 2017 15:55
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Jose posted:shes just given birth
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May 5, 2017 15:57
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mediadave posted:If Corbyn doesn't resign immediately after the General Election I think the party will split. what if labour win?
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May 5, 2017 16:00
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https://twitter.com/robmayor/status/860509076949798913
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May 5, 2017 15:59
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