|
El Pollo Blanco posted:because the right and far-right will still be united. Well, in France, they really aren't, I'd wager more for power-vying reasons than because of ideological differences. The traditional conservatives, while they push a similar brand of xenophobia, are generally moderately Europhile and laissez-faire as all hell, and Le Pen most definitely isn't. We really haven't the kind of electorate that would allow for a populist free market platform like in Anglo countries.
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 06:11 |
|
|
El Pollo Blanco posted:I am just going to repeat that I'm a leftist, in the vague hopes you will believe that I don't actually want to vote everyone to vote for neoliberals, and instead am more concerned about the fracturing of leftism in the face of far-right nationalism. there is nothing new under the sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism last time this poo poo happened, fascists slipped into power and it was the largest catastrophe in all of recorded human history. But gently caress that! You see, Macron won't personally come to my house and get me my dream job in academia in my hometown, so he is just as bad as the fascists and I'm totally justified in letting all of this happen again 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:27
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:last time this poo poo happened, fascists slipped into power and it was the largest catastrophe in all of recorded human history. But gently caress that! You see, Macron won't personally come to my house and get me my dream job in academia in my hometown, so he is just as bad as the fascists and I'm totally justified in letting all of this happen again I don't think anybody in this thread even said they would abstain? It's just very grating to see people telling us that we don't vote enthusiastically enough for a candidate that doesn't represent our values or defend our interests because the alternative is unthinkable.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
lost in postation posted:Please don't tell us what "we" should be doing, American person who's come into the Europol thread with a burning desire to use any excuse to discuss American politics. We in this instance is the G7 and NATO, because we're collectively the target of Putin's agitprop.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
lost in postation posted:I don't think anybody in this thread even said they would abstain? It's just very grating to see people telling us that we don't vote enthusiastically enough for a candidate that doesn't represent our values or defend our interests because the alternative is unthinkable. Exactly, what all this berating that some of the left isn't extremely animated to vote for the neoliberal to stop the fascist menace just leads me to guess that these self appointed protectors of our liberal values don't seem to understand that it's precisly the fact that we are keep being given lovely choices like this that will ensure that fascists will eventually win down the line.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:38
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:there is nothing new under the sun Last time this happened the Center Party helped pass the Enabling Act and kicked off this whole mess.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:37
|
|
|
SickZip posted:because Putin is less of an immediate threat to the local lower and middle class then finance, business interests, and various eurocrats and all of those have greater election influence then Putin does. is there any reason beyond xenophobia/nationalism to care more about him then various other shitheads that happen to live within the same borders? I don't know, how stupid do you have to be to not recognize that Putin is working in unison with finance and business interests? Putin's Russia is a dreamland of unrestrained oligarchic capitalism, just like the Western right-wing wanted it to be in the 90s. Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:there is nothing new under the sun But the KPD who didn't die in the camps got to lead half of Germany after like 16 years of Nazi power and subsequent occupation!
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:38
|
|
|
Fados posted:Exactly, what all this berating that some of the left isn't extremely animated to vote for the neoliberal to stop the fascist menace just leads me to guess that these self appointed protectors of our liberal values don't seem to understand that it's precisly the fact that we are keep being given lovely choices like this that will ensure that fascists will eventually win down the line. Actually, if the Weimar Republic had managed to hold off the NSDAP from taking power for only 5 years longer, the economic crisis would have resolved itself and we could have saved 50mio from a violent, gruesome death and saved Europe from complete devastation. GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Actually, if the Weimar Republic had managed to hold off the NSDAP from taking power for only 5 years longer, the economic crisis would have resolved itself and we could have saved 50mio from a violent, gruesome death and saved Europe from complete devastation. vote Macron, save the world
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Fados posted:vote Macron, save the world don't set your dick on fire, go out and loving vote
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Yes, because Putin is actively working against those centrists to advantage right wing populist isolationists because he wants to dismantle NATO and the EU. Putin supported proto-fascists are sweeping the western political landscape and you still think centrists are the real threat. Useful idiot is exactly the right term, sorry if it stings. Putin supported proto-fascists wouldn't be sweeping the western political landscape if "centrists" hadn't been relentlessly loving everyone the last 3 decades. Something something "civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within" Continuing to back the thing that's at the source of the problem is what's causing the problem, pointing that out does not a "useful idiot" make. Abstaining from voting for another neoliberal can't be worse than actively voting for the fascist yet you seem much more angry at people who won't keep backing the system against their own interests than about those that are getting ready to go out and vote for the fascist. Why aren't you insulting the Fillon electorate instead? And if you truly believe Le Pen can attract that many people from the working class maybe you should take pause and consider how badly people have had it and how fed up with it they are that despite being left wing they'd vote for a fascist out of desperation. You continue to put piles of poo poo in front of them and telling them to eat it because "there is no alternative" / "the alternative is fascism". There are 12-15 electoral cycles during the lifetime of a person, how many times do you think you can convince them to eat poo poo before they riot and turn the table over? MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 20:07 on May 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 20:02
|
|
|
El Pollo Blanco posted:The actual left is splitting though, economic leftists are being siphoned off into far-right groups because those nationalists campaign on some leftist economic positions. This is obviously bad for the left, it has nothing to do with centrists. In 1933 Portugal had a literal Mussolini inspired blue-shirt wearing fascist called Francisco Rolao Preto who was campaigning on some leftist economic positions. It's a good thing the portuguese people chose the lesser of two evils, Salazar shut him down pretty effectively. The integralist dictatorship of the next 41 years wasn't the worst thing possible when you think about it so I guess the communists that didn't back Salazar were the real fascists.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 20:22
|
|
|
Obviously Le Pen voters are the worst, that's why I'm suggesting you should hold your nose and vote against her, rather than staying home like Putin wants you to. Are there Le Pen voters around for me to yell at? That sounds cathartic. It does not matter one iota in this election whether centrists are responsible for the rise of the populist isolationist right because the leftist alternative lost, and it's a centrist or a fascist. Unless you think neoliberalism is a brain disease contracted by voting strategically, there's zero risk that voting for Macron will have any impact whatsoever on the impending contest between the center left and the far left. Indeed, destroying Le Pen will advantage the left in the future by stopping her from poaching working class voters who want a strong safety net with her perverted leftist arguments. Additionally, the left sitting out an election where a virulent racist is on the ballot is exactly the way to ensure nonwhite voters conclude the left doesn't give a poo poo about them.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
An actual good post by JC, wow
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 20:54
|
|
|
If clinton and macaroni are the best democracy has to offer, trump and le pen deserve to win. Same as with old communism, since stalin and mao were the best it could offer, it too deserved to die.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
lollontee posted:If clinton and macaroni are the best democracy has to offer, trump and le pen deserve to win. Same as with old communism, since stalin and mao were the best it could offer, it too deserved to die.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
Call me what you will, but I do hold the contentious opinion that the actual results of a political system do matter when evaluating whether it deserves to survive. And Macron doesn't offer anything good. All he is, "not le Pen". And that's not worth voting for.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
Leftist are rightfully pissed because a bunch of milk toasting liberals suddenly found out that there is fascism in the world in 2016 and got all in a hissy "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" bullshit,while most of us have been fighting racists and fascists since we were old enough to buy steel capped boots.when liberals ask "oh no fascists!who could see this coming?!" We did.we warned you about it 10-15 years ago.doubling down on reaganomics brought this upon us. No poo poo ,there's fascists in the world.where the gently caress have you been? Of course that's a rhetorical question we know were youve been,whit your thumbs firmly planted in your rear end. So once again we will vote for the assholes whose policies have destroyed our jobs,endangered the health care of our families and drove our friends out of their country, MeLKoR posted:In 1933 Portugal had a literal Mussolini inspired blue-shirt wearing fascist called Francisco Rolao Preto who was campaigning on some leftist economic positions. It's a good thing the portuguese people chose the lesser of two evils, Salazar shut him down pretty effectively. The integralist dictatorship of the next 41 years wasn't the worst thing possible when you think about it so I guess the communists that didn't back Salazar were the real fascists. Imma just quoting this here because liberais should read it and learn from loving history for once.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:11
|
|
|
There's no difference between eating foie gras and polonium because they're both bad for you. Harm reduction is worth voting for.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
quote:Salazar entered public life with the support of President Óscar Carmona, initially as finance minister 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
Boy, it sure is weird that when leftists refuse to unite in the first round, they don't get a leftist to vote for in the second round! 🤔
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
Heard from TV: "I'm fed up with the guilt-tripping moralization made to leftists about how they have to accept with a smile whatever single alternative to fascism they're offered! If the FN is so dangerous, such a threat to democracy, then why is it a legal political party? Ban it, and lock its leaders up! Just be honest about it! If they shouldn't be allowed to reach power, they shouldn't be allowed the potential to even attempt it!" That was from Périco Légasse, who usually talks more about food than about politics.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:19
|
|
|
Are the polls suggesting less than half of melenchon's voters will vote for Macron plausible?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
ChainsawCharlie posted:Imma just quoting this here because liberais should read it and learn from loving history for once. This is a thing that will never happen unfortunately
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
Salazar literally presented himself as a pure technocrat, and always refused to call himself a politician, even far into his many decades as dictator. He was seen in the 30's as a compromise between all the centre and right factions against populist threats from both (primarily) the left and also the right, with the aforementioned legit fascist syndicalist movement that was brewing, and against the low key anarchism that afflicted the countyry which the weak central government could not deal with. He is still most remembered by the so called 'saudosistas' (people who still long for the dictatorship) as the guy who kept the country's finances in order, so that literally his most remembered postive featured was his fiscal austerity.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:34
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:there is nothing new under the sun The problem is by voting for the lesser of two evils for the last 30 years we got to the point were Macron is considered a "social-democrat".
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Why are there people saying Putin isn't a threat when there's a ton of evidence that Kremlin is bankrolling extremely effective online opinion generators. It must be nice to live in the bubble that is this gay dead forum, but in the real world, facts have ceased to matter, and opinions with zero basis rule many debates. And every time you bring up the fact that 90% of everything that's being said about the world situation right now is a giant pile of fascist propaganda, people will flock in, making GBS threads out fascist memes about refugees, immigrants, muslims, etc, or just jump straight to whataboutism and spew how the center/left, dubbed SJWs is even worse, somehow. "Le Pen is best friends with Putin", but Putin somehow doesn't matter? Get your loving heads examined, jfc. Many Europeans are using SJW as an insult, completely unironically, in tyool 2017, and like clockwork, the bullshitshow sprung up around the time many states have important elections coming up. Putin's stooges know people are pissed at the situation, and they're taking advantage of the rage to twist reality some, to further their interests. Fados posted:vote Macron, save the world I can't vote cause I'm not French, but here's the deal. Macron appears to be a regular dumbass shitlord neolib, Le Pen is a literal 21st century fascist. I've had to vote for people I hated before, purely because the alternative was literal religious nutcases who are trying to rewrite history and rehabilitate Nazi collaborators during 2nd world war, and further poo poo up the already unconstitutional laws we have in this country, because having 2 moms or an abortion is apparently just completely unnatural and refugees are bringing in Sharia law and killing our women, and SJWs are destroying our glorious culture. That said, I do have the luck of living in a country where the president is a diplomatic function, not one with any real power. I'm not going to tell you to go vote for Macron, because voting for people you hate sucks, and being told to vote for people you hate sucks even more. Instead, let's talk about what's going to happen after the election. If Macron wins, he'll make the rich richer and the poor poorer, that's what his ilk cares about. That sucks a lot for effectively everyone involved, there isn't many rich and a lot of poor people. The left could easily use this and have full socialism implemented in the next 2-3 elections after decades of this kind of bullshit. That's what would happen in a sane world anyway, but we've established this one isn't. On the other hand, Macron loss isn't going to hurt Macron much, if at all. He's a banker shitlord with wads of cash in his pockets, plus he's a white French cis male. He's going to be just fine. As for everyone else? Well, first many brown people are going to get turbo hosed, since they're the no.1 enemy now. Many poor people regardless of race and blacks will get sweeped up in this too, discrimination doesn't discriminate very well. While they're at it, they might also do in some Asians. Gotta do something to fight off boredom along the way right? They will, of course, also walk back on all the bullshit promises about lower taxes/higher welfare, and will just go down Trump/Putin steps. Hello oligarchic fascism. Autocratic fucks love money more than neolibs, there's zero indication that FN is somewhow different and there's zero indication that they wouldn't just do whatever Macron's plan is here, but that benefits even less people. Everything says MLP will lose just fine. So don't go vote for Macron if it's that revolting to you. Or go there, but take a dump in your envelope. Instead, in the legislative elections that actually matter with things, vote for whatever left dudes you think can throw the wrench into the machine. Because right now, things look loving dire in that department: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_legislative_election,_2017#Seat_projections how the gently caress did melenchon and hamon get like 25% of the vote, but the entire non-right in the legislative election polls is sitting at just 10%? lollontee posted:If clinton and macaroni are the best democracy has to offer, trump and le pen deserve to win. Same as with old communism, since stalin and mao were the best it could offer, it too deserved to die. There's really not much point in going full accelerationist. If push comes to shoot (and we're on a pretty good road there, so you might not have to wait long either way), you can always pick up a gun and shoot some Nazis with your antifa friends. But it'd be far far better for everyone involved if it never comes to that. I really don't want to get shot over some idiot's racist ideas. We've had that before around here, last time in the 90s, and while I got off scott free (I saw some tanks and heard some explosions and had to hide in a bunker for a few hours) by being far enough north, it was still the shittiest thing to experience. "Hey, those guys were our friends two months ago, now they're doing a bit of genocide". ughhhhhhhhh I'd take the chances for Macron to not be an autocratic bitch over the fairly obvious certainty of MLP being an autocratic bitch backed by Putin, personally. Cat Mattress posted:Heard from TV: "I'm fed up with the guilt-tripping moralization made to leftists about how they have to accept with a smile whatever single alternative to fascism they're offered! If the FN is so dangerous, such a threat to democracy, then why is it a legal political party? Ban it, and lock its leaders up! Just be honest about it! If they shouldn't be allowed to reach power, they shouldn't be allowed the potential to even attempt it!" See, this I can agree with. Why is hate speech allowed, when it's backed by a political party? Why are obviously oligarchic/autocratic political programs just okay in a supposed social democracy? How the everloving gently caress did we come here? And why is it ok for politicians to keep campaining on promises they never keep? Maybe don't start straight up with guillotines, but if someone says they're going to fight for workers and better wages, and then they just keep on trucking down to capitalist oblivion, there should probably be prison time. Scamming people out of their money is a big no-no (unless you're ultra rich in the first place, anyway), but scamming people out of their votes has become completely kosher. e: gently caress I didn't realise my ramble ended up being this long 
Truga fucked around with this message at 22:10 on May 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:01
|
|
|
On a related note, here's the front page of this weekend's Libération (Do Whatever You Want, But Vote For Macron)
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Are the polls suggesting less than half of melenchon's voters will vote for Macron plausible? Polls show that 40-55% of Melenchon voters are likely to vote Macron, more than Fillon's but less than Hamon's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017#Macron.E2.80.93Le_Pen
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:14
|
|
|
Truga posted:Why are there people saying Putin isn't a threat when there's a ton of evidence that Kremlin is bankrolling extremely effective online opinion generators. It must be nice to live in the bubble that is this gay dead forum, but in the real world, facts have ceased to matter, and opinions with zero basis rule many debates. And every time you bring up the fact that 90% of everything that's being said about the world situation right now is a giant pile of fascist propaganda, people will flock in, making GBS threads out fascist memes about refugees, immigrants, muslims, etc, or just jump straight to whataboutism and spew how the center/left, dubbed SJWs is even worse, somehow. While he's certainly trying to exploit the situation, I think blaming the emergence of a neo-reactionary movement on Putin is: a) vastly overstating how progressive people were in the West before; b) a fairly comfortable thought, since it means that people aren't rejecting compassion and common decency spontaneously, but because of propaganda; c) not super well-evidenced. That said, I definitely feel you. These masses of people forfeiting even the pretense of progressiveness make me feel genuinely sad and scared.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:26
|
|
|
MeLKoR posted:The problem is by voting for the lesser of two evils for the last 30 years we got to the point were Macron is considered a "social-democrat". Social-Democrats of the 30's probably couldn't even dream of a 35h work week, like the one that Macron supports. There is always this subtle implication that the world used to be all rainbows and sunshine, until some evil cabal of neo-liberals conspired to gently caress everyone over with their evil master plan. When what really happened was that the world changed in a dramatic fashion over the last 40 years, that most of these changes have been outside of our control and that people, political parties and countries were forced to adapt to them, due to no fault of their own. Nobody in the west had any control over Deng Xiaoping's reforms, over global warming emerging as problem or women continuing to fight for equal rights in society. Neo-liberals didn't invent just-in-time manufacturing, CNC machines, PCs, the internet or convolutional neural networks. This stuff just happened and it destroyed the old world and old ways. Now it's totally fine to argue whether people like Macron have viable long term solutions on how to adapt to these changes, but there was always going to be some kind of adaptation necessary.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:32
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Social-Democrats of the 30's probably couldn't even dream of a 35h work week, like the one that Macron supports. Helpful reminder: France introduced the 35h work week in 2000, merely 17 years ago.
|
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Social-Democrats of the 30's probably couldn't even dream of a 35h work week, like the one that Macron supports.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
Yeah the russians are in no way - https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/860603123236315137 Yeah whatever
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:50
|
|
|
ChainsawCharlie posted:Leftist are rightfully pissed because a bunch of milk toasting liberals suddenly found out that there is fascism in the world in 2016 and got all in a hissy "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" bullshit,while most of us have been fighting racists and fascists since we were old enough to buy steel capped boots.when liberals ask "oh no fascists!who could see this coming?!" Most of the folk here saying "don't let a literal fascist win because it'll ruin the lives of a lot of minorities" are actually proper lefties, not liberals.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:51
|
|
|
Vote against the fascist please. I need some good news this week.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
fishmech posted:I don't know, how stupid do you have to be to not recognize that Putin is working in unison with finance and business interests? Putin's Russia is a dreamland of unrestrained oligarchic capitalism, just like the Western right-wing wanted it to be in the 90s. Man, this Russian Conspiracy runs deep. They're secretly beyond austerity, the slow gutting of western welfare programs, and deindustrialization.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 23:04
|
|
|
orange sky posted:Yeah the russians are in no way - Useful idiots will thank Wikileaks for revealing the truth, just like they did and still do in the US.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 23:09
|
|
|
So far it's been revealed that he pays his campaign staff reasonably well and thinks the solution against ghettos is integrated schools. Wouldn't worry too much about it.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 23:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 06:11 |
|
|
jBrereton posted:Macron does in fact not support it and wants a "negotiation" away from it, cf also his labour reforms he gave to El Khomri. I stand corrected. I read a summary of his agenda and it said that he doesn't want to touch the 35h week, which can mean a lot of things I guess. endlessmonotony posted:Most of the folk here saying "don't let a literal fascist win because it'll ruin the lives of a lot of minorities" are actually proper lefties, not liberals. It's not just minorities. Le Pen would have active state of emergency powers, which would apparently allow her to abolish the democratic order(which she openly announced she wants to do  ) Her election could mean the end of the EU, which would affect millions of Frenchmen living abroad and would annihilate millions of jobs. And if you look at the shitstain that is Trump, 24 mio of his voters are about to lose access to health insurance. His budged cuts to social programs are disastrous, his tax reform plans would be a huge burden on low-income people and a blatant handout to the rich. ALL of this suffering could have been avoided, if people just went to loving vote. None of this had to happen.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2017 23:21
|
|