Serotonin posted:

Stop loving pretending that you would have voted for a socialist and that all the bad PR is anything but a convenient smokescreen for you all.

Ewan posted:

Other people also being incompetent does not suddenly make Corbyn & co competent.

serious gaylord posted:

'Heh, you wouldnt have voted for labour anyway you big bunch of racists' he says to the lifelong labour voters.

Ewan posted:

We also have to rememember fault is not a zero sum game. Multiple people and factors are at fault.

Is it the fault of the media for disproportionately attacking Corbyn? Yes
Is it the fault of the PLP and their constant backstabbing and attempts to undermine? Yes

But
Is it also the fault of the Corbynistas carrying a "holier than thou" attitude and telling anyone who doesn't agree to gently caress off and go vote Tory? Yes
Is it also the fault of Corbyn and his team over and over again loving up the simplest of PR/media skills? Yes
Is it also the fault of his Cabinet constantly loving up, cross briefing, back-tracking, etc? Yes


On the Corbynista attitude one, it is one that annoys me a lot. Their reaction to people suggesting Labour would better off more centrist or that they'd "never vote Corbyn PM" is to say "gently caress off Blairite/neoliberal/Tory scum", rather than trying to understand why they think that way, and come up with ideas to win them over rather than just telling them they're thick/evil cunts. You have to remember 95% of the population doesn't have a clue what "neoliberal" means, don't have a clue what being a "Blairite" is, doesn't have a clue about the Tory's vision for privatised/corporate-run Britain, doesn't have a clue other than you can pick between some well-spoken competent-looking men and women in suits and a ragtag bunch of jokers who gently caress up at every corner. You don't win these voters over by calling them names.

Ewan posted:

We also have to rememember fault is not a zero sum game. Multiple people and factors are at fault.

Is it the fault of the media for disproportionately attacking Corbyn? Yes
Is it the fault of the PLP and their constant backstabbing and attempts to undermine? Yes

But
Is it also the fault of the Corbynistas carrying a "holier than thou" attitude and telling anyone who doesn't agree to gently caress off and go vote Tory? Yes
Is it also the fault of Corbyn and his team over and over again loving up the simplest of PR/media skills? Yes
Is it also the fault of his Cabinet constantly loving up, cross briefing, back-tracking, etc? Yes


On the Corbynista attitude one, it is one that annoys me a lot. Their reaction to people suggesting Labour would better off more centrist or that they'd "never vote Corbyn PM" is to say "gently caress off Blairite/neoliberal/Tory scum", rather than trying to understand why they think that way, and come up with ideas to win them over rather than just telling them they're thick/evil cunts. You have to remember 95% of the population doesn't have a clue what "neoliberal" means, don't have a clue what being a "Blairite" is, doesn't have a clue about the Tory's vision for privatised/corporate-run Britain, doesn't have a clue other than you can pick between some well-spoken competent-looking men and women in suits and a ragtag bunch of jokers who gently caress up at every corner. You don't win these voters over by calling them names.

Ewan posted:

You missed one, possibly the most important. Their policies might be good, but it's no good if they're so incompetent they can't implement them without loving up. That is the perception most people have - and frankly you can't say it's not true because there is no evidence (equally you can't say it is true either).

Ewan posted:

On the Corbynista attitude one, it is one that annoys me a lot. Their reaction to people suggesting Labour would better off more centrist or that they'd "never vote Corbyn PM" is to say "gently caress off Blairite/neoliberal/Tory scum", rather than trying to understand why they think that way, and come up with ideas to win them over rather than just telling them they're thick/evil cunts. You have to remember 95% of the population doesn't have a clue what "neoliberal" means, don't have a clue what being a "Blairite" is, doesn't have a clue about the Tory's vision for privatised/corporate-run Britain, doesn't have a clue other than you can pick between some well-spoken competent-looking men and women in suits and a ragtag bunch of jokers who gently caress up at every corner. You don't win these voters over by calling them names.

Crashbee posted:

'Corbynistas' have spent years being told to hold their nose and vote Blair/Brown/Milliband. How odd they get defensive when the shoe's on the other foot.

jabby posted:

You realise this is an internet forum and not your doorstep, right? No one is here to convince you of anything, nor are they obliged to try. The simple fact that you are here means you are politically aware enough that you know the arguments for and against Corbyn/the Tories and can act like a big boy and make your own mind up. Playing some ridiculous game where if only people had been nicer to you then you might have voted Labour is bullshit, vote for who you want and take responsibility for you own lovely views.

hakimashou posted:

Jeremy Corbyn is no Tony Blair.

Seaside Loafer posted:

They dont implement the policy, they make it.

Ewan posted:

lol way to completely miss the point I'm not talking about UKMT/SA or anything at all relating to my own voting stance.

Crashbee posted:

'Corbynistas' have spent years being told to hold their nose and vote Blair/Brown/Milliband. How odd they get defensive when the shoe's on the other foot.

Serotonin posted:

Stop loving pretending that you would have voted for a socialist and that all the bad PR is anything but a convenient smokescreen for you all.

serious gaylord posted:

I'm going to how you put it 'hold my nose' and vote labour in the general election. Given the results of the locals, theres a huge majority who won't. Also I would question your first point entirely, since most corbynistas in here held there noses by voting lib dem and green previously.

serious gaylord posted:

Also I would question your first point entirely, since most corbynistas in here held there noses by voting lib dem and green previously.

Crashbee posted:

That sound was the point flying over your head. It's hypocritical to tell leftists they have to shut up and vote Labour even if they don't like the leader, and then refuse to vote Labour when there's a leader they don't like.

Praseodymi posted:

He says to the lifelong Labour voters *faaaaart*

serious gaylord posted:

I was with Corbyn up until the 3 line whip for article 50 which demonstrated a complete and total moment of idiocy on his behalf that there was no coming back from.

goddamnedtwisto posted:

I'm with you on this but probably(?) for different reasons. If he had some political nous he'd have allowed a free vote, which would have left a lot of his most vocal critics in a very nasty position as they represent safe Labour seats that went strongly Leave. Whipping for it was pointless both on a national political scale and also in the context of internal party politics.

Baron Corbyn posted:

congratulations on being so politically unaware that you can't tell the difference between a presidential election conducted under a run off system and a first past the post parliamentary election.

Ewan posted:

On the Corbynista attitude one, it is one that annoys me a lot. Their reaction to people suggesting Labour would better off more centrist or that they'd "never vote Corbyn PM" is to say "gently caress off Blairite/neoliberal/Tory scum", rather than trying to understand why they think that way, and come up with ideas to win them over rather than just telling them they're thick/evil cunts.

quote:

You’re a hypocrite. Because if you’d wanted to keep the Tories out you’d have backed away when it became clear he wasn’t going to be any good at the job.

gently caress you all. I just wish the rest of us weren’t going to get hosed as well.

TACD posted:

Corbyn messes up PR stunts, while the Tories mess up political maneuvering on a scale that's now taking us out of the EU and risks breaking up the Union. Diane Abbott gets her numbers wrong on the radio and is excoriated while Boris Johnson parades around for months in front of a bus with an eight-foot-high lie printed on it but basically gets away with it.

The Tories are so good at incompetence that people don't even see it as such any more and just call it 'politics'.

AP posted:

En Marche! was formed just over a year ago and Tory tactics for this election are obviously at attempt turn it into a presidential style election. Yes, the outcome will be decided by FPTP, well done, now if only there was a bunch of unhappy incumbents who had no confidence in Corbyn who thought they'd nothing much to lose.

jabby posted:

Oh OK, please give me some examples of Corbyn supporters knocking on the doors of ordinary voters and then telling them to gently caress off because they're Tory scum. Because it sure seems like you are whinging about stuff that happens in this thread, not on the campaign trail.

AP posted:

En Marche! was formed just over a year ago and Tory tactics for this election are obviously at attempt turn it into a presidential style election. Yes, the outcome will be decided by FPTP, well done, now if only there was a bunch of unhappy incumbents who had no confidence in Corbyn who thought they'd nothing much to lose.

TACD posted:

You literally just minutes ago posted a link to a rant where the author tells Corbyn voters to gently caress off without trying to understand why they voted for him.

Ewan posted:

Ewan posted:

He says "gently caress you for ruining Labour's chances". He doesn't tell them to gently caress off and go vote for a different party.

TACD posted:

Is this an important distinction? Are people only voting Conservative because a Corbyn supporter told them to?

xtothez posted:

My favourite part is when a Conservative prime minister offered a referendum as a magic bullet to silence his backbenchers, only to watch it backfire horribly and take the country back in time 40 years. Then when a Labour leader overwhelmingly defeats a challenge to his leadership, he's the one the papers call 'incompetent'.

But yes it's clearly Labour that are the danger here. Not that party that fucks up the UK for decades over an internal power struggle, no.

MikeCrotch posted:

The only reason macron might win is he going head to head with a *literal fascist*. He wants to do this by telling everyone they need to work longer hours and that deregulation and privatisation are the way forward. These are all the things that have got us to where we are now, I'm totally baffles how anyone can look at this and think "yes, this is what we need more of."

LemonDrizzle posted:

I think you are a bit confused about why he's likely to win. He's likely to win because he won the largest share of the vote in the first round, and because second round polls had him winning >60% of the vote against every possible challenger, including the left wing candidate Mélenchon.