UKMT May 2017: Weak and Wobbly vs. Old and Knobbly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT May 2017: Weak and Wobbly vs. Old and Knobbly

TACD: Oct 27, 2000

Ewan posted:

No, but the way you win them back is understanding why this is happening and make changes to address it, rather than simply telling them to gently caress off, which is only going to make them double down.

I agree. My point is that this goes both ways, but nobody seems to be looking at Corbyn's support in the leadership contests and thinking about how to win over an obviously passionate group of people. It's only ever the left that is expected to 'hold their nose' and vote against their principles.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:23

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 23:51

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Heavens to Betsy, where are all these ukmt political cassandras and nostradamuses when there isn't a general election going on?

# ? May 6, 2017 10:23

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

WMain00 posted:

I think the reality is Labour is going to split, forming into a Socialist Workers Party led by Corbyn and a centralist New Labour party. I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn didn't resign after the General Election and this occurred instead.

the people who leave the party in this scenario are not going to be the ones keeping the name labour

# ? May 6, 2017 10:24

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

TACD posted:

I agree. My point is that this goes both ways, but nobody seems to be looking at Corbyn's support in the leadership contests and thinking about how to win over an obviously passionate group of people. It's only ever the left that is expected to 'hold their nose' and vote against their principles.

Don't get me wrong here. As I posted previously - the Corbynistas are certainly not the only ones at fault for Labour's mess

WMain00 posted:

I think the reality is Labour is going to split, forming into a Socialist Workers Party led by Corbyn and a centralist New Labour party. I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn didn't resign after the General Election and this occurred instead.

I don't have archives so can't find it, but I think in the Jan UKMT thread I made some predictions for the year, and one of them is that Labour's problem is entirely irreconcilable without a split.

If this happens - any association with the word "Socialist" in its name or whatever would be total political suicide. I don't know how it would work legally in terms of who would be allowed to use the name "Labour" (assuming its Trademarked?).

Ewan fucked around with this message at 10:30 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 10:27

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

WMain00 posted:

I think the reality is Labour is going to split, forming into a Socialist Workers Party led by Corbyn and a centralist New Labour party. I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn didn't resign after the General Election and this occurred instead.

Corbyn won't resign after the election. He has an army of idiots with excuses at the ready. Labour is hosed.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:27

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

Jose posted:

the people who leave the party in this scenario are not going to be the ones keeping the name labour

True they'll likely leave the name behind as by that point it will be completely toxic.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:28

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

TACD posted:

I agree. My point is that this goes both ways, but nobody seems to be looking at Corbyn's support in the leadership contests and thinking about how to win over an obviously passionate group of people. It's only ever the left that is expected to 'hold their nose' and vote against their principles.

I don't give a poo poo about having these 'passionate people' won over.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:29

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Jose posted:

its cool how he's going to be able to do gently caress all when he wins

Maybe, maybe not - there's not a whole lot of polling for the Assembly elections yet, but the one that has been reported gave him (well, En Marche!) a good shot at securing a majority of the deputies.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:30

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Pissflaps posted:

Corbyn won't resign after the election. He has an army of idiots with excuses at the ready. Labour is hosed.

labour has been hosed since the financial crash. Corbyn is a symptom of it

# ? May 6, 2017 10:29

Looke: Aug 2, 2013

# ? May 6, 2017 10:32

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Ewan posted:

If this happens - any association with the word "Socialist" in its name or whatever would be total political suicide. I don't know how it would work legally in terms of who would be allowed to use the name "Labour" (assuming its Trademarked?).

Chuka Umunna was already mooting changing the party name to the Democrats during his abortive leadership campaign

# ? May 6, 2017 10:36

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

Baron Corbyn posted:

Chuka Umunna was already mooting changing the party name to the Democrats during his abortive leadership campaign

Too similar to "Liberal Democrats". And, to most people, the word "Liberal" still has a meaning of progressiveness, openness, so opens the obvious "Well you're the non-Liberal democrats then!"

Ewan fucked around with this message at 10:41 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 10:39

Comrade Cheggorsky: Aug 20, 2011

good lord the meltdowns in this thread, its going to be one long dark night of the soul when the jam mans incompetence gives May a landslide in June

# ? May 6, 2017 10:40

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Also, Barnier's updated the EU's negotiating position on the rights of EU citizens in the UK post-Brexit (and those of UK citizens in the EU): http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-1236_en.htm

Key points (shamelessly cribbing from Faisal Islam's twitter feed as well as my own reading):

In 2004, the UK was one of very few countries to immediately open its labour market to the new Member States (aka "lmao why are you moaning about something you did voluntarily?")
Free movement of people is one of the four essential freedoms. These four freedoms are indivisible. This is how our Single Market works. And let me be clear: the integrity of the Single Market will never be compromised in these negotiations.
Protection [of currently-resident EU citizens' current rights] should apply for the life time of the citizens who are concerned.
The rights of family members should also continue to be protected including in those circumstances where family members are not themselves EU citizens.
Number one: the level of protection afforded under EU law must not be watered down. Brexit should not alter the nature of people's daily lives. Number two: there must be equal treatment between all EU and UK nationals in the UK. Inversely, equal treatment between UK citizens and the nationals of the 27 Member States must also be the rule when UK citizens live in those 27 states. Number three: the EU requires crystal-clear guarantees that rights will be effectively enforced. For UK citizens in the EU, the European Court of Justice will play its role to ensure the application of the withdrawal agreement. Similarly in the UK, the rights in the withdrawal agreement will need to be directly enforceable and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice maintained.
Let me give you some further examples of the sorts of situations that we will inevitably have to confront: A Greek engineer in the UK must maintain the right to export the full amount of her old-age pension to Greece if she decides to retire in Athens. A German worker in the UK must have access to healthcare under the same conditions as UK nationals. The Spanish widow of a UK national living in the UK must continue to enjoy the rights that she has today. A Scottish designer who has worked in Hungary for the last ten years, and who finishes his career in Glasgow, must be able to aggregate all his pension periods after returning to the UK. If his daughter decides to stay in Budapest to attend university there, she must be treated in the same manner as a Hungarian national. The son of a Polish worker residing in the UK must be able to attend higher education under the same conditions as a British national. It should not matter if this happens in 2020 or in 2030.
To conclude, some in the UK have tried to blame Member States for the continued uncertainty that citizens have been confronted with for ten months now. That is wrong. The only cause of uncertainty is Brexit.

Oh, also the UK has to accept all of the above before things like trade can even begin to be discussed.

LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 10:47 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 10:40

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

WMain00 posted:

I think the reality is Labour is going to split, forming into a Socialist Workers Party led by Corbyn and a centralist New Labour party. I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn didn't resign after the General Election and this occurred instead.

As Labour leader Corbyn would keep the Labour name, the splitters would go into the cooperative party probably.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:42

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Ewan posted:

To similar to "Liberal Democrats". And, to most people, the word "Liberal" still has a meaning of progressiveness, openness, so opens the obvious "Well you're the non-Liberal democrats then!"

Also changing the party's name back then probably would have led to someone else registering the name 'Labour' and stealing a bunch of Labour voters as Chuka's Democrats desperately try to get the word out that they're the real Labour Party.

Any scenario where Chuka didn't drop out in 2015 realistically ends up with Andy Burnham leading the party right now though.

Comrade Cheggorsky posted:

good lord the meltdowns in this thread, its going to be one long dark night of the soul when the jam mans incompetence gives May a landslide in June

my bold prediction is it won't be a landslide, Tories gain in the low double digits. As usual the anti-Corbyn lot exaggerating how bad things are going to be allows the Corbyn die hards to claim victory and double down. Everyone loses.

GEORGE W BUSHI fucked around with this message at 10:50 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 10:43

TheRat: Aug 30, 2006

One of the biggest failures of the Labour party the past decade is failing to publicly defend spending during the crash. The Tories have pumped Labour spending for all it's worth and then some, and for some hosed up reason Labour decided the Tories were right and refused to defend it.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:46

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

TheRat posted:

One of the biggest failures of the Labour party the past decade is failing to publicly defend spending during the crash. The Tories have pumped Labour spending for all it's worth and then some, and for some hosed up reason Labour decided the Tories were right and refused to defend it.

The "we must live within our means" narrative, while entirely disingenuous, is easy to understand and intuitive so it resonates with people and they believe it.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:49

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

TheRat posted:

One of the biggest failures of the Labour party the past decade is failing to publicly defend spending during the crash. The Tories have pumped Labour spending for all it's worth and then some, and for some hosed up reason Labour decided the Tories were right and refused to defend it.

I feel this way too. Labour people will rightfully defend the good things the party did last time it was in power when the attacks come from Corbynites but meekly accepted the "Labour overspent" argument when it came from the Tories.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:50

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Remind me, what's the reasoning for dealing with all the administrative stuff before discussing trade? Other than it giving the EU a negotiating advantage over the U.K.?

# ? May 6, 2017 10:50

TheRat: Aug 30, 2006

Ewan posted:

The "we must live within our means" narrative, while entirely disingenuous, is easy to understand and intuitive so it resonates with people and they believe it.

Of course, but Labour should have fought tooth and nail to explain why it was wrong instead of just yielding. Allowing "The country is like a credit card" to be a thing is loving shameful.

# ? May 6, 2017 10:51

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

ITT

"Blair did enormous lasting damage to the Labour party when he assumed that left voters would have nowhere to go when he triangulated on the middle"

Fast forward to 2017:

"Oh no I do not understand what is happening why are all these moderate voters deserting Labour for the Tories don't they understand they have nowhere to go?"

# ? May 6, 2017 10:54

Laradus: Feb 16, 2011

TheRat posted:

One of the biggest failures of the Labour party the past decade is failing to publicly defend spending during the crash. The Tories have pumped Labour spending for all it's worth and then some, and for some hosed up reason Labour decided the Tories were right and refused to defend it.

Margaret Beckett did a "lessons learned" taskforce report of the 2015 GE and that was one of the points (released Jan 2016). Scribd link seems down but here's a link to another copy if you want to read and see some internal discussion of the reasoning of why it wasn't challenged.

E: Discussion is on page 6 "Labour�s response to the economic narrative"

Laradus fucked around with this message at 10:57 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 10:55

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

serious gaylord posted:

I was with Corbyn up until the 3 line whip for article 50 which demonstrated a complete and total moment of idiocy on his behalf that there was no coming back from.

This was a big moment for Corbyn and it cost him a lot of sympathy.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:02

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Darth Walrus posted:

Remind me, what's the reasoning for dealing with all the administrative stuff before discussing trade? Other than it giving the EU a negotiating advantage over the U.K.?

It's right there on the page. We cannot be in the Single Market unless we agree to freedom of movement. If we are not in the Single Market, the trade deals will have to be conducted on entirely different terms. Therefore, these details must be resolved before trade negotiations can begin.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:00

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Alchenar posted:

ITT

"Blair did enormous lasting damage to the Labour party when he assumed that left voters would have nowhere to go when he triangulated on the middle"

Fast forward to 2017:

"Oh no I do not understand what is happening why are all these moderate voters deserting Labour for the Tories don't they understand they have nowhere to go?"

The situation is actually a bit more multidimensional, with Labour being pressured on two fronts. First from the center, where elections were traditionally won, and the bottom, where the losers of Globalization desert Labour to vote UKIP. The strategic mistake by Labour was that they are trying to go after the later group (see 3 line whip on Brexit) but have no chance to out-Brexit the Brexitqueen while they at the same time are losing the center even more, because the people there are against Brexit and far-left ideology in general.

It's a brilliant political maneuver by the Conservatives on the other hand, who are able to portray themselves as the responsible grown ups to the center, while still being the champions of Brexit, a position that a competent opposition should have never allowed them to assume.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:06

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Darth Walrus posted:

Remind me, what's the reasoning for dealing with all the administrative stuff before discussing trade? Other than it giving the EU a negotiating advantage over the U.K.?

That 'administrative stuff' is people's lives.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:09

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Darth Walrus posted:

Remind me, what's the reasoning for dealing with all the administrative stuff before discussing trade? Other than it giving the EU a negotiating advantage over the U.K.?

You have to know what the starting point for a post-Brexit trade agreement would be. First comes the divorce settlement, than we can talk whether we remain friends and you are allowed to visit the kids.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:11

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

I sure can't wait for the election to be over. Oh wait, then we'll have another leadership election.

So UKMT will be readable again by September at this rate. Though I suppose a lot of the experts who've dropped their tuppence worth the past couple of days will have gotten bored well before then at least.

serious gaylord posted:

I was with Corbyn up until the 3 line whip for article 50 which demonstrated a complete and total moment of idiocy on his behalf that there was no coming back from.

Was certainly the moment where I gave up any hope of a surprising come-from-behind victory. And that aside, it was just the wrong thing to do. I get he doesn't like the EU but for fucksake, the Tories being in charge of Brexit and all the new trade deals we'll need to sign is worse than continuing in the EU.

I'm still somewhat sympathetic to him, but between that and the total failure to do anything about reforming the party's internal democracy, I've gone from very much pro-Corbyn to "best of a bad bunch" to "oh my god we're absolutely hosed in June's election, and he'll probably win another leadership contest"

GaussianCopula posted:

The situation is actually a bit more multidimensional, with Labour being pressured on two fronts. First from the center, where elections were traditionally won, and the bottom, where the losers of Globalization desert Labour to vote UKIP. The strategic mistake by Labour was that they are trying to go after the later group (see 3 line whip on Brexit) but have no chance to out-Brexit the Brexitqueen while they at the same time are losing the center even more, because the people there are against Brexit and far-left ideology in general.

It's a brilliant political maneuver by the Conservatives on the other hand, who are able to portray themselves as the responsible grown ups to the center, while still being the champions of Brexit, a position that a competent opposition should have never allowed them to assume.

gently caress OFF NAZI oval office

forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 11:15 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 11:11

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Pissflaps posted:

That 'administrative stuff' is people's lives.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just wondering why the specific order of negotiations matters, because I'm legit unsure.

This was helpful:

Jedit posted:

It's right there on the page. We cannot be in the Single Market unless we agree to freedom of movement. If we are not in the Single Market, the trade deals will have to be conducted on entirely different terms. Therefore, these details must be resolved before trade negotiations can begin.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:15

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

The Sun also has a helpful contribution!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3494310/theresa-may-and-her-team-of-tories-wont-play-if-the-eu-continues-to-play-dirty/

quote:

THERESA MAY and her team don�t take insults lying down. They�ve always been determined to have the last word in any argument.
So, they were furious when Jean-Claude Juncker�s cronies briefed out the most unflattering account possible of the dinner that May had had with him and his negotiators.
Their anger was heightened by the fact that the dinner had been meant to build trust between the two sides ahead of the Brexit negotiations getting under way.
The mood darkened over the ensuing days as yet more leaks came out of Brussels.
As one veteran of David Cameron renegotiation remarked to me, Martin Selmayr � Jean-Claude Juncker�s Machiavellian chief of staff � was again poisoning the well against the British.
May then decided on an extraordinary course of action.

One of the UK government�s big worries is that the rest of the EU still thinks that May won�t walk away, no matter how bad the deal on offer is.
This is why the EU feels emboldened to ramp up the amount Britain supposedly owes, using accounting techniques that would make Enron blush.
I understand that not only has the Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood told every Government department to prepare for a no-deal scenario, but the Government is also considering publishing it.
They hope that by setting out their plan, they would show the rest of the EU that Britain really was prepared to walk away rather than sign up to a bad deal.

I mean, I kind of want to see this "plan", but only after I've sold my house and made full preparations for relocating to NZ.

Here is the cartoon accompanying the article:

# ? May 6, 2017 11:24

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Corbyn was an experiment, by the people and the unions and everyone. There is no shame in putting him into power and seeing how it would work out. It is also supported by that his compatriots at the election were neither unsuitable nor greater than him to get the position.

There is however a severe wrongness in that after it has been shown the experiment has failed and to decry anyone with cries of "give it more time" that somehow the entire situation will flip on itself. The point of an experiment is a test, and Corbyn was a noble test to bring abotu a true socialist alternative with Labour's roots.

It fell apart, and the continued finger pointing won't help the UK or get the grassroots people to hold their nose and vote Labour in spite of him. Without mandatory voting people will either just not vote, give away their vote, or vote for the party that may have the most horrible UK destroying policies in the world but at least someone they respect in their servitude.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:25

AP: Jul 12, 2004; One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them; Grimey Drawer

Baron Corbyn posted:

they'd split the left vote between themselves and Labour candidates?

The point about it being a presidential run off vs FPTP was to help you realise that the circumstances that allowed Macron to sneak his way into the second round and in fact aided and abetted by left wing splitters.

Thanks but I don't really need the help of someone who supports Corbyn to explain why a politician is popular. You're not just not equipped for the task.

If Corbyn doesn't resign after the upcoming historic defeat in the general election I think the Labour party will split, you don't. I'm happy to wait and see which of us is correct.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:25

jabby: Oct 27, 2010

Ewan posted:

Twitter bollocks

There are two kinds of people you can talk to. There are people who don't know all the bad things this Tory government is doing, or who don't know Labours policies, and they should be educated. Then there are people who are fully aware of those things but who say 'you need to convince me to vote Labour' because they want an opportunity to be a smug douchebag and make disparaging comments about naive socialists.

Most of the people you meet on the internet are the second kind. And yes, you should tell them to gently caress off because if knowing the crimes of this government isn't enough to convince you to vote Labour then you definitely are a oval office.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:26

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

forkboy84 posted:

I sure can't wait for the election to be over. Oh wait, then we'll have another leadership election.

So UKMT will be readable again by September at this rate. Though I suppose a lot of the experts who've dropped their tuppence worth the past couple of days will have gotten bored well before then at least.

Was certainly the moment where I gave up any hope of a surprising come-from-behind victory. And that aside, it was just the wrong thing to do. I get he doesn't like the EU but for fucksake, the Tories being in charge of Brexit and all the new trade deals we'll need to sign is worse than continuing in the EU.

I'm still somewhat sympathetic to him, but between that and the total failure to do anything about reforming the party's internal democracy, I've gone from very much pro-Corbyn to "best of a bad bunch" to "oh my god we're absolutely hosed in June's election, and he'll probably win another leadership contest"

Obviously always on the 'this is a terrible idea' bandwagon, but https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/75574/labour-voters-remain-unsure-partys-eu-referendum was the moment I was absolutely certain I was right and there wasn't going to be any grassroots insurgency. Labour's referendum campaign was an absolute disaster and people ITT focused way too hard on the way Labour voters split in the end and not on the fact that half of them thought that Labour's official policy was mixed or pro-Brexit.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:26

Kegluneq: Feb 18, 2011; Mr President, the physical reality of Prime Minister Corbyn is beyond your range of apprehension. If you'll just put on these PINKOVISION glasses...

Coohoolin posted:

This was a big moment for Corbyn and it cost him a lot of sympathy.

Labour would definitely be more popular in those pro-leave areas if he'd let their mps vote against it?

Obviously it didn't have the desired effect but I'm far from convinced that a free vote would have helped the local election results much the other way. With Brexit a major issue how would a non-committal position have helped?

# ? May 6, 2017 11:27

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Kegluneq posted:

Labour would definitely be more popular in those pro-leave areas if he'd let their mps vote against it?

Obviously it didn't have the desired effect but I'm far from convinced that a free vote would have helped the local election results much the other way. With Brexit a major issue how would a non-committal position have helped?

Corbyn got in power from the Labour faithful party member base, which by and large were against Brexit. His being in power did not sway pro-Brexit people to Labour. The bind is by coming out supporting Brexit, in his soft stance against it, he fulfilled the adage "why vote for the echo when you can vote for the shout?"

Labour aren't going to get votes from pro-Brexit voters by echoing the Conservatives, it just makes them hanger ons and alienated the very people that put Corbyn there. It was a lose-lose scenario. It didn't even have a chance to change him in the media, they may glad hand him for being pro-Brexit but it's in the vein of "unable to keep his rowdy left commie supporters against him" and the moment it passes oh look he's back against him.

It was a terrible decision, and was from when it was first announced til now.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:34

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

AP posted:

Thanks but I don't really need the help of someone who supports Corbyn to explain why a politician is popular. You're not just not equipped for the task.

If Corbyn doesn't resign after the upcoming historic defeat in the general election I think the Labour party will split, you don't. I'm happy to wait and see which of us is correct.

I don't support Corbyn and you're dumb as gently caress.

I'm not even saying the party won't split. I'm saying that a split party wouldn't gain power like Macron did unless the very specific set of circumstances that went right for him also happened here being

a) the left wing rump Labour Party would need to split again to reflect the situation in France
b) the Conservatives would need to undergo some major corruption scandal to reflect what happened to Fillon (okay this one's within the boundaries of the imagination)
c) some far right bogeyman would need to emerge, preferably with vaguely left wing economic views to drive ex-Tories towards your new neoliberal splitter party.

GEORGE W BUSHI fucked around with this message at 11:40 on May 6, 2017

# ? May 6, 2017 11:36

Kegluneq: Feb 18, 2011; Mr President, the physical reality of Prime Minister Corbyn is beyond your range of apprehension. If you'll just put on these PINKOVISION glasses...

Lid posted:

Corbyn got in power from the Labour faithful party member base, which by and large were against Brexit. His being in power did not sway pro-Brexit people to Labour. The bind is by coming out supporting Brexit, in his soft stance against it, he fulfilled the adage "why vote for the echo when you can vote for the shout?"

Labour aren't going to get votes from pro-Brexit voters by echoing the Conservatives, it just makes them hanger ons and alienated the very people that put Corbyn there. It was a lose-lose scenario. It didn't even have a chance to change him in the media, they may glad hand him for being pro-Brexit but it's in the vein of "unable to keep his rowdy left commie supporters against him" and the moment it passes oh look he's back against him.

It was a terrible decision, and was from when it was first announced til now.

I don't disagree that it's a decision that put him against his base. I just don't see what else he or anyone else could do. Labour are haemorrhaging support from pro-leave voters, not remainers. How would a free vote have put him in a stronger position with those voters?

# ? May 6, 2017 11:39

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 23:51

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Alchenar posted:

Obviously always on the 'this is a terrible idea' bandwagon, but https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/75574/labour-voters-remain-unsure-partys-eu-referendum was the moment I was absolutely certain I was right and there wasn't going to be any grassroots insurgency. Labour's referendum campaign was an absolute disaster and people ITT focused way too hard on the way Labour voters split in the end and not on the fact that half of them thought that Labour's official policy was mixed or pro-Brexit.

My worry, aside from guaranteeing another 5 years of Tory government, is that we're going to end up with the Labour left (including the soft-left) completely ostracised for another 30+ years.

I'm a socialist. Not out of political expediency, or triangulation or any of that bollocks, but out of a moral certainty that economic equality is a hugely important issue that needs much more to be done with. I'm not a Marxist, I'm not actually an anarchist despite having a lot of sympathy to anarchism, my beliefs don't really have a philosophical underpinning. I just thought as a kid that some people are starving while others own a three houses each with 10+ bedrooms, and that is still just glaringly obvious to me. Dealing with inequality, not just with poverty, has always been at the root of my political beliefs. Which is why when I think of New Labour I don't think of the undeniable positive things they did, the first thing that comes to mind is Peter Mandelson's notorious "We are intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich". Well, I'm not. I think obscene wealth is a great social ill.

# ? May 6, 2017 11:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT May 2017: Weak and Wobbly vs. Old and Knobbly

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