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Ewan posted:The topic of BBC bias is always an interesting one. The left often accuse it of having a right/Tory bias (often with legitimate examples) and the right often accuse it of having a leftist bias (often with legitimate examples). Maybe this means it's actually doing an OK job in a pretty difficult political climate. Holy poo poo gently caress off. Just come out & say "hmmmmmm, maybe the truth is in the middle" & then take a poo poo on the floor & roll around in it. I don't think the BBC has a left or right bias. I think it has an establishment bias, a status quo bias. Or as MikeCrotch put it, a liberal bias. It also has a bias towards poo poo that gains ratings, despite that being a stupid priority for a public broadcast formed to "inform, educate, entertain" in that order. Which is what I put the constant bigging up UKIP as more of a force than they actually were, and indirectly normalising the slow suicide of Brexit. Ewan posted:
You're a worthless liberalism cliché machine today Ewan. Plenty of people disagree with this and suggest that altruism is just as innate to humanity as selfishness, and the victory of one over the other is more a result of the societal norms around us as we grow up than anything else. So unless you've got some overwhelming evidence (& going "hurrr, the world around us" doesn't count), sorry, we disagree. Edit: This probably sounds meaner than I intended to. I just tell people to gently caress off too much. Still, I'm right. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 15:00 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 14:56
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Every day we drift further from Andraste's light. We need to find the 13 Treasures to make Britain great again and drive away the foreign invaders. You all are tainted by the seed of the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons and the Normans, so I, as a true Celtic descendant, am the most qualified to lead this most holy quest. Hir yn byw Prydain
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May 6, 2017 14:59
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forkboy84 posted:I just tell people to gently caress off too much. In this case it's entirely justified.
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May 6, 2017 15:01
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cosmically_cosmic posted:The Labour party itself is a socialist party, the idea that a socialist running it is some sort of extreme case of entryism is a compliment to Tony Blair and his lot. One of the conditions for 'deciding to start winning' is accepting that you have to be a broad tent to win and that there are a lot of traditions on the left that are not 'socialist'. e: I mean if you are going to reject the idea that modern Social Democracy is a left wing movement then yeah, but you're squeezing yourself into a corner there. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 15:11 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 15:05
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Alchenar posted:One of the conditions for 'deciding to start winning' is accepting that you have to be a broad tent to win and that there are a lot of traditions on the left that are not 'socialist'. Are there? I mean, there's plenty of traditions on the left that aren't rooted in Marxism, but not in socialism? Keynesianism I guess. What are all these other examples?
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May 6, 2017 15:06
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forkboy84 posted:Well, I'm not. I think obscene wealth is a great social ill. And you would be objectively right (assuming wealth inequality of course).
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May 6, 2017 15:10
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forkboy84 posted:Are there? I mean, there's plenty of traditions on the left that aren't rooted in Marxism, but not in socialism? Keynesianism I guess. What are all these other examples?
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May 6, 2017 15:12
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LemonDrizzle posted:Social liberalism more generally - Keynesianism provided the framework of the economic policy of 1930s-1970s social liberalism, but was far from the entirety of it. liberalism is not leftism, sorry friend. nice try though
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May 6, 2017 15:16
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Ewan posted:
Although I fundamentally disagree with you I like reading some of your posts. This, however, is not one of those posts. Humanity has been around for a long time relative to our current socio-economic system. Don't confuse the current relationship between base and superstructure (in before Ronya tells me off for getting close to the LToV) and ideological state apparatus with some form of universal truth. Humans have just as much capacity for altruism and collectivism as for greed.
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May 6, 2017 15:20
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icantfindaname posted:liberalism is not leftism, sorry friend. nice try though
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May 6, 2017 15:21
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To be fair, the utter collapse of UKIP is kind of a big deal. If Labour got reduced to 5 MPs next month then I'd expect a lot of commentary from Labour Lords, grandees and former MPs, so it's not weird that they'd interview the leader of a party that was a big electoral power a few years ago.
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May 6, 2017 15:23
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LemonDrizzle posted:Social liberals introduced old age pensions, universal unemployment and health insurance, and large-scale council house building. They also wrote the blueprint for the postwar welfare state and the economic theories that held sway during the golden years of postwar social democracy. Those seem like fairly solid left wing contributions to me. Those are all solid left policies yup and when they aren't supporting them, they aren't "left" anymore.
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May 6, 2017 15:25
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LemonDrizzle posted:Social liberals introduced old age pensions, universal unemployment and health insurance, and large-scale council house building. They also wrote the blueprint for the postwar welfare state and the economic theories that held sway during the golden years of postwar social democracy. Those seem like fairly solid left wing contributions to me. the policies were socialist, the party itself was not. point still stands, liberalism and the left aren't the same
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May 6, 2017 15:31
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Another Person posted:i can't wait for 2022, andy burnham's race to party leadership, where everyone in here forgets that they apparently hated him in 2015/6 and are suddenly big supporters because the alternatives are worse I don't think people hate Andy Burnham. in fact I thinks its impossible for anyone to have a strong emotional reaction to him.
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May 6, 2017 15:33
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The Mayor of Hereford is standing as an in Independent this year, for my constituency. https://www.facebook.com/jim.kenyon.7/videos/10158465457330198/ Amazing.
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May 6, 2017 15:35
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Alchenar posted:One of the conditions for 'deciding to start winning' is accepting that you have to be a broad tent to win and that there are a lot of traditions on the left that are not 'socialist'. Corbyn was more than happy to be the leader of a big tent, the problems started when all his MPs decided to get out of the big tent and start pissing into it instead. Being a big tent doesn't mean being lead by the most centrist person available, that is the fundamental issue. Plenty of people on Labours left stuck with the party through the Blair years because 'big tent' but as soon as someone from a different side is in charge the right decided the big tent could gently caress off if they couldn't be in control of it.
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May 6, 2017 15:37
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in TYOOL 2017 it's a wee late to complain that the New Left came to claim the term 'left'
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May 6, 2017 15:43
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What was Blair/New Labour's relationship with the New Left? I assume he was tough-on-crime/minorities/women in the same way Clinton was? The whole idea of the third way was that it explicitly rejected the label of left. That's totally different from vulgar materialists complaining that black and women's issues are polluting their Marxism
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May 6, 2017 15:49
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I don't think people hate Andy Burnham. in fact I thinks its impossible for anyone to have a strong emotional reaction to him. i was gonna get annoyed at you for shooting down my suggestion but your post made me laugh so im gonna let it slide today, dog
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May 6, 2017 16:06
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I don't think people hate Andy Burnham. in fact I thinks its impossible for anyone to have a strong emotional reaction to him. Someone described Burnham as "a child's drawing of a man", which is rather cruel but I think gets the point across accurately.
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May 6, 2017 16:09
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I'd describe him more as a macabre, ambulatory Gerry Anderson puppet given crude life.
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May 6, 2017 16:16
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i'd describe him as the inevitable future leader of the labour party
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May 6, 2017 16:20
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It's pretty rich to hear Corbyn supporters mock his rivals' personalities when Corbyn has been weak and vacillating from the start and can't decide between politer politics and being angry, eventually choosing to be decisive on precisely the wrong issue.
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May 6, 2017 16:23
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LemonDrizzle posted:Social liberalism more generally - Keynesianism provided the framework of the economic policy of 1930s-1970s social liberalism, but was far from the entirety of it. OK, social liberalism, I'll grant you that as part of the centre left. That's still not really "a lot" though, so I'm still excited to see what Alchenar has in mind on that front. ronya posted:in TYOOL 2017 it's a wee late to complain that the New Left came to claim the term 'left' Yes, much like it was too late for New Labour to complain about Labour being a socialist party who view common ownership of the means of production as an absolutely key part of the parties reason for existing so there was no point arguing about it.
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May 6, 2017 16:25
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its fun to mock people breath ray hell, you are sorta doing it rn for real though, if his mayorship goes well, due to his term ending in 4 years instead of 5, there is a fairly good chance we get andy burnham labour leader in the future. it will be interesting to see him with more leadership experience. he has certainly played his cards well since the initial leadership election.
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May 6, 2017 16:28
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Another Person posted:for real though, if his mayorship goes well, due to his term ending in 4 years instead of 5, there is a fairly good chance we get andy burnham labour leader in the future. it will be interesting to see him with more leadership experience. he has certainly played his cards well since the initial leadership election. The guy is a weathercock, which as we all know is a short step from just being a cock.
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May 6, 2017 16:29
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jabby posted:The guy is a weathercock, which as we all know is a short step from just being a cock. I don't really disagree but I do appreciate his work on the hillsborough inquiry and also him wanting to make MPs lying a prison offence
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May 6, 2017 16:31
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jabby posted:The guy is a weathercock, which as we all know is a short step from just being a cock. then tell me, who else is a viable candidate
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May 6, 2017 16:31
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Another Person posted:its fun to mock people breath ray I hadn't considered this - very good news! I'm going to have a toasted cheese sandwich to celebrate.
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May 6, 2017 16:33
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like, most people don't actually know what Burnham is about, but he has been pretty on the ball and vocal with issues of miscarriages of justice like Hillsborough, or union blacklisting outside of McDonnell barely any Labour MPs have even given union blacklisting a mention
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May 6, 2017 16:34
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icantfindaname posted:What was Blair/New Labour's relationship with the New Left? I assume he was tough-on-crime/minorities/women in the same way Clinton was? The whole idea of the third way was that it explicitly rejected the label of left. That's totally different from vulgar materialists complaining that black and women's issues are polluting their Marxism Rocky. In 1993 there was enthusiasm; by 1998 there was backlash (Marxism Today got a special resurrected issue just to denounce its widely-reckoned brainchild).  The particular problem was that New Labour was only too successful at absorbing the lessons of Hall's 1979 The Great Moving Right Show essay - that the "New Right" Thatcherism was a real ideological movement, not a mere rebranding, and was not going to be Heath redux and be undone by manning the barricades once again, - that the welfare state had come to be seen with resentment by ordinary working people, rather than a benevolent triumph, - that the battle over education had been pre-emptively lost by a Labour serially obsessed with eradicating the remnants of classism, when instead the popular eye had utterly turned toward skills and standards, and this was not going to diminish, - that the crime and race focus of Powellism was successful, amazingly so, amongst ordinary working people; that it touched on real and concrete experiences of crime and theft and violence and job loss, - that "this is exactly the terrain on which the forces of opposition must organize, if we are to transform it" You might sense that the UK New Left, or at least those who still wore the label by the 1980s, were not exactly coming to different conclusions on responding to Thatcherism. ronya fucked around with this message at 16:37 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 16:34
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marxism today is lame because it doesn't have enough bob jessop in it imo bob jessop... good
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May 6, 2017 16:44
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Depending on how he performs as mayor, Andy Burnham could be interesting as leader of the Labour party, although I can't imagine the Corbyn supporters would be too happy with him
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May 6, 2017 16:43
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ronya posted:- that the battle over education had been pre-emptively lost by a Labour serially obsessed with eradicating the remnants of classism, when instead the popular eye had utterly turned toward skills and standards, and this was not going to diminish, What did they accomplish with such gusto that it bordered on fanaticism? As an American, off the top of my head hereditary titles and the existence of the monarchy go a ways toward cementing a classist society; has Labour ever been explicitly against these things, or have they tried to abolish them in the past? My Cold War-era UK history sucks, I really don't know much about post-Atlee Labour successes.
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May 6, 2017 16:44
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I don't think people hate Andy Burnham. in fact I thinks its impossible for anyone to have a strong emotional reaction to him. Andy Burnham's reaction on getting elected leader of the Labour party
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May 6, 2017 16:45
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Comrade Cheggorsky posted:Depending on how he performs as mayor, Andy Burnham could be interesting as leader of the Labour party, although I can't imagine the Corbyn supporters would be too happy with him Burnham has been the most successful at positioning himself as not being hostile to Corbyn. He never got on the bad side of the Corbyn movement, worked in his Shadow Cabinet and never took shots at him after the initial leadership election. He criticised leadership contesting after the fact for not giving Corbyn a chance. If any Brownite gave Corbyn a chance, it was Burnham.
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May 6, 2017 16:47
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Feel the Burn(ham)
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May 6, 2017 16:51
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Why is it everyone says Burnham is so fairweather and flip-floppy? Genuinely asking, I don't know everything he's done or said. I've seen good things from him, he seems like a good MP to me. Edit: not an MP anymore but you know what I mean Hoops fucked around with this message at 16:54 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 16:50
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Hoops posted:Why is it everyone says Burnham is so fairweather and flip-floppy? Genuinely asking, I don't know everything he's done or said. I've seen good things from him, he seems like a good MP to me.  e: this is just a particularly pleasing visual example. He's just a shite politician with no or very few convictions beyond the preservation of his own career. communism bitch fucked around with this message at 16:56 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 16:53
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Hoops posted:Why is it everyone says Burnham is so fairweather and flip-floppy? Genuinely asking, I don't know everything he's done or said. I've seen good things from him, he seems like a good MP to me. Because people looked at him and saw his fairly standard Labour pledge list and decided he was a centrist. He didn't represent the strong break with the status quo of Labour that people wanted in 2015, and that reputation never left him because it has persisted on being an issue in Labour to this day. For what it matters, I would describe Burnham as a Brownite, positioned to the left somewhat of Brown himself, but nowhere near Corbyn. If we were to line up the leadership candidates, from right to left it would have been: Kendall, Cooper, Burnham, Corbyn. Some of the major issues of contention between Corbyn supporters and Burnham supporters were defence policy, because Corbyn represented stronger pacifism, while Burnham was much more traditional in foreign policy, supporting the standards of Trident renewal and NATO membership.
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May 6, 2017 16:57
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