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Oberleutnant posted:So let's talk about the public perception of rank hypocrisy in the centrists' new (old) messiah: Andy Bumham. May I present to you: The D&D political spectrum True Progressive/Leftist:  (possibly, the poster)Far Left: Tankies Leftist: A political figure or commentator who has never held actual power Left of Centre: The current golden boy, whomever they may be (recent examples: Corbyn, Bernie(WHW), Tulsi, Mélenchon) Centrist: Anyone with a single position one iota to the right of the golden boy. (More frequently applied when presented in opposition to a golden boy, or to golden boys/leftists after they've taken power) Technocrat: People with knowledge of an oft-discussed subject who also understand nuance. (Synonyms: Wonk, sperg, neoliberal. Antonyms: Pissflaps) Centre Right: Leftmost mainstream opposition in a given country. (Synonyms: Liberal, Democrat, IdPol, neoliberal, neomccarthyist, corporatist) Right Wing: The least left members of any Centre Right group. (Synonyms:New Labour, Blue Dog, neoliberal, conservative, neomccarthyist) Fascist: Bog standard conservative politicians. (Synonyms: Literally Hitler, neoliberal, authoritarian, SJW, Blairite) Alt-right: Openly racist conservative politicians. (Synonyms: Racist, neoliberal, Kipper, Pepe) "Actually, Fascist means": Alt-right with populist economic rhetoric. (Recent examples: Le Pen. Key allies: neoliberals) Paracaidas fucked around with this message at 18:00 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 17:57
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's worth bearing in mind that when the Labour right, Blairites, Blue Labour, Progress or whatever you want to call them say "Hard Left" they're not talking about us Marxists right here in the good old UKMT. They're talking about the mild social democratic reforms that Corbyn's running on. Constant attacks on Corbyn's personality or leadership abilities are only a fig leaf covering up a deep, burning hatred for anything to the left of a 2010 Tory manifesto. Even Tony Blair's 1997 manifesto would probably be too left wing for the press these days. That's straight up not true given they were happy with those policies when Ed Miliband proposed them.
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May 6, 2017 17:58
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Paracaidas posted:May I present to you: The D&D political spectrum This is a dumb post.
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May 6, 2017 18:00
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Alchenar posted:That's straight up not true given they were happy with those policies when Ed Miliband proposed them. That's straight up not true, they resorted to tricking him into badly eating a sandwich because he's a communist jew
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May 6, 2017 18:00
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Alchenar posted:That's straight up not true given they were happy with those policies when Ed Miliband proposed them. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22105195 And given this was was from "Strikes are wrong at a time when negotiations are still ongoing" their hatred is probably based on the idea that Corbyn might actually mean it.
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May 6, 2017 18:04
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They literally played the "his dad's a loving COMMUNIST" card in multiple papers and the BBC had terrible pop celeb shits berate him for taxing millionaires Ed wasn't Corbyn but he, like everyone since Blair, was undermined and savaged.
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May 6, 2017 18:04
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nopantsjack posted:The One Crazy Trick that the Tories are effortlessly managing and labour never can is you don't publically fight each other and don't badmouth your leader. It's electoral cyanide EVERY time. *cough*  the reason why all that attempted undermining wasn't successful is perhaps related, one might surmise, to their continuing difficulties working the media, even with all the power of the Leader's office
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May 6, 2017 18:04
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forkboy84 posted:This is a dumb post. But I put in the Pissflaps line just for you? 
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May 6, 2017 18:04
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forkboy84 posted:This is a dumb post. Exceptionally so. For one thing, literally no one in this thread thinks or has ever thought that Mélenchon is any sort of golden boy.
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May 6, 2017 18:04
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Oberleutnant posted:Andy "I'll never give an interview to the Sun because they lied about Hillsborough" Burnham: yeah but he's our shite politician!!!
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May 6, 2017 18:05
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ronya posted:*cough* Proof labour loves infighting, thanks?
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May 6, 2017 18:06
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some leaders are more resistant to intraparty badmouthing and public party fighting than others! it works especially well if the side which loses that intraparty fight is widely held in contempt by the electorate, ofc
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May 6, 2017 18:08
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Except Blair basically did get kicked out eventually by in party fighting via the Brownite faction it just took a while.
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May 6, 2017 18:10
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tony blair should've been kicked off wigan pier sometime around summer 99, maybe then he doesn't cost the party 3 million votes
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May 6, 2017 18:11
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His Divine Shadow posted:The more I read this thread and UK news in general, the more I think Corbyn is probably a pretty OK leader, but Labour is just such a lovely shambolic party completely lacking all confidence of the voters (and was like this before corbyn too) not even the best drat leader there ever was could fix it. That's true to a point (hard to know how good he is with all the in-fighting and factionalisation), but everything's changed with Brexit. Old loyalties and priorities were already being eroded when Miliband was leader, Labour's traditional base voting for the Tories and UKIP - partly because Labour were offering basically a diet version of the exact same thing, but also because the Tories have been better at convincing people they aren't terrible. See the 'what, you're cutting my benefits??' Tory voter on QT, and people not shouting about what they're doing to the NHS and everything else Now we have brexit and it seems like a game changer, people's number one priority. People who are 'proud Labour voters' voting Tory because they delivered the referendum and are promising the moon. The ironic thing is Theresa May says she called this election for a mandate on Brexit negotiations, and it's looking like that's exactly what she's going to get - an election that's more about the EU than governing the UK. So many people don't seem to care about anything else, and there's active hostility towards anyone who represented Remain / threatens the negotiations / talks down BRITANE. Anyone who isn't fully and fervently on board with this delusion the right wing are pushing I said before that this will probably be May's Falklands War against the EU, and it looks like it's working - talk about how strong and powerful the government and Britain are, how the enemy is trying to attack us ('they're interfering with our elections!') and how Britain is going to show them what for. People eat that poo poo up. Brexit is our 'USA! USA! USA!'
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May 6, 2017 18:13
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His Divine Shadow posted:The more I read this thread and UK news in general, the more I think Corbyn is probably a pretty OK leader, but Labour is just such a lovely shambolic party completely lacking all confidence of the voters (and was like this before corbyn too) not even the best drat leader there ever was could fix it. You're assessment is half right. The Labour party and PLP especially is pretty shambolic but Corbyn is also a terrible leader. There has been a severe lack of co-ordinated policy development under him and at least some of those who took positions did so with an intention of giving him a chance. In fairness to Corbyn he's coming in with a lifetime of political experience as a backbencher. He didn't have the support of the party's media and policy groups to the extent that he would need but then that's also partly because people in those areas require being able to give their own input. Corbyn isn't a consensus builder, he is someone that pushes his own views and is quite happy for people to hold differences. It's a quality that makes him popular in the current age but makes him incapable of building a functioning political coalition. It's easy to say that the PLP needs to gently caress off and die but it's no more practical than blue Labourites saying that left wingers need to shut up and vote Tory-lite in the hopes that UKIP voters find them agreeable. Wholly rejecting one wing of the party doesn't result in electoral victory. Basically Corbyn is a committed politician and holds strong, authentic values. Hell I can even see him doing well, Sanders style, as a Presidential type candidate in the current climate. Leading a Parliamentary party requires a different skill set though and Corbyn has shown he lacks the professional level knowledge to co-ordinate PR, policy and party and the ability to recruit and work with existing expertise. The current state of affairs for Labour voters is either Corbyn is a bad leader who should be replaced or 90% of Labour candidates and the party machinery that backed and supported them is bad for the Labour party and needs to be done away with. I don't think I'm exaggerating, it seems clear whether due to ideological disagreement or ability, they will not work well with Corbyn. As popular as he is with the membership the only options I see are him finding someone who is better at party management and politics he feels will best represent the views of the left or Labour needs to look at splitting. I think the latter would pretty much gently caress the UK and result in 1,000 years of darkness but leaves us with a better chance for an official coalition government to emerge either between the Labour right and left or LDs and one of them (in about 10 years when everyone has forgotten how poo poo they were and when reapplying for EU membership has become an election issue).
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May 6, 2017 18:19
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LOL ireland http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-launch-blasphemy-probe-into-stephen-fry-comments-on-the-meaning-of-life-35684262.html
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May 6, 2017 18:20
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Burnham can't be pm cause of the unwritten rule that an open catholic can't be prime minister 
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May 6, 2017 18:21
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It doesn't matter how many seats the Conservatives win in June, it will be reported a landslide.
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May 6, 2017 18:23
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Jippa posted:LOL ireland Blasphemous libel is still on the books in Scotland and Northern Ireland
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May 6, 2017 18:25
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Nonsense posted:It doesn't matter how many seats the Conservatives win in June, it will be reported a landslide. Given how thursday went a landslide might be an understatement.
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May 6, 2017 18:24
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serious gaylord posted:Given how thursday went a landslide might be an understatement. Yeah I'm not seeing a repeat of 2015. When it rains it pours.
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May 6, 2017 18:25
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To add to Burnham flip flopping talk. He ran his 2010 leadership campaign as a Blairite and got soundly defeated as his Blairite mates rallied around David Miliband, and then for whatever reason, genuine political conversion, power lust, or according to some reports a personal grudge against former friends who didn't back him in 2010, he moved toward the Brownite wing of the party and before Corbyn came in at the 11th hour, he was the most left option for the leadership election.
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May 6, 2017 18:27
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nopantsjack posted:The One Crazy Trick that the Tories are effortlessly managing and labour never can is you don't publically fight each other and don't badmouth your leader. It's electoral cyanide EVERY time. You obviously don't recall the early '00s then
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May 6, 2017 18:30
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baka kaba posted:That's true to a point (hard to know how good he is with all the in-fighting and factionalisation), but everything's changed with Brexit. Old loyalties and priorities were already being eroded when Miliband was leader, Labour's traditional base voting for the Tories and UKIP - partly because Labour were offering basically a diet version of the exact same thing, but also because the Tories have been better at convincing people they aren't terrible. See the 'what, you're cutting my benefits??' Tory voter on QT, and people not shouting about what they're doing to the NHS and everything else Can we stop with the whole "traditional Labour voters are going Tory/UKIP?" It was the people who were targeted by New Labour triangulation who are switching in big numbers, who only ever voted for New Labour in '97, '01 and maybe '05, namely the self employed and small businesses owners a.k.a the core of support for Thatcher.  The Tories are basically getting their voters back from UKIP, but with far less opposition from the Lib Dems which is translating into wins for them at a national level. At the local level, turnout is depressed across the board - Labour voters just aren't getting out and voting, while Tory support stays solid with a big boost from UKIP. There's very little evidence that "lifelong Labour voters" are defecting to UKIP or the Tories in meaningful numbers. MikeCrotch fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 19:25
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Gonzo McFee posted:What people seem to forget is that back when Jeremy Corbyn wasn't on the ballot yet everyone was trying to outdo each other in being as close to the Tory party while still being Tory light. You had Andy Burnham promising to cut benefits, Yevette Cooper who previously had been trying to attack Theresa May for not being tough enough on crime as Shadow Home Secretary and Liz Kendall who's only criticisms of Tony Blair was to do with the stuff that people actually liked about Tony Blair. This really needs to carved into a badly-judged stone tablet or something for the UKMT, because people forget about it every loving time someone mentions what Labour was like before Corbyn. It's almost like history has been rewritten so that Labour MP's saying we need to be tougher on benefits recipients than the Tories or tougher on crime than the Tories didn't happen. I mean the Tories crow every PMQs that their 2015 manifesto included a bigger commit to the NHS than Labour and they are actually right. Labour was an absolute garbage opposition before Corbyn. Also this is interesting:   The campaign has been good (minorly) for Corbyn's popularity and bad for May's. jabby fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 19:31
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I think Labour's problems post 2010 really stem more from realising that the legacy of New Labour had become toxic but not knowing whether to fight to redeem it or disavow it. Miliband opted to try to ignore the issue completely for five years which was a disaster because financial credibility remained an issue in 2013. I'd hesitate to describe the swing to the right in 2015 as an opportunistic move to what they're secretly thinking but rather an acceptance that having opposed austerity twice and having lost twice, to get back into power Labour needed to get in line with a public that wanted to see a government that was making every penny count. But it was done without conviction and it was done without the Blair style counterweight of understanding aspiration and making an offer to people's hopes, which is why those candidates ultimately fell flat and didn't resonate with anyone.
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May 6, 2017 20:15
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jabby posted:This really needs to carved into a badly-judged stone tablet or something for the UKMT, because people forget about it every loving time someone mentions what Labour was like before Corbyn. It's almost like history has been rewritten so that Labour MP's saying we need to be tougher on benefits recipients than the Tories or tougher on crime than the Tories didn't happen. I mean the Tories crow every PMQs that their 2015 manifesto included a bigger commit to the NHS than Labour and they are actually right. Labour was an absolute garbage opposition before Corbyn. Oh that was just posturing. They'd have done the left thing in power.
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May 6, 2017 20:25
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Alchenar posted:I think Labour's problems post 2010 really stem more from realising that the legacy of New Labour had become toxic but not knowing whether to fight to redeem it or disavow it. Miliband opted to try to ignore the issue completely for five years which was a disaster because financial credibility remained an issue in 2013. I'd hesitate to describe the swing to the right in 2015 as an opportunistic move to what they're secretly thinking but rather an acceptance that having opposed austerity twice and having lost twice, to get back into power Labour needed to get in line with a public that wanted to see a government that was making every penny count. So you think Labour in 2015 should have embraced austerity with more 'conviction', and appealed to 'aspiration'? How the heck is that any different from what the Tories were offering? In other news, Corbyn has attacked Theresa May again for refusing to debate and hiding. He's offered to debate her "anytime, any place, anywhere" and said "If [she] wants to make this election about leadership then let’s make it about leadership". It's a strategy I think that can only go well, since the more she refuses to debate him the more it reflects poorly on the 'strong leadership' angle she bases her whole campaign around.
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May 6, 2017 20:25
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Breath Ray posted:Oh that was just posturing. They'd have done the left thing in power. Nah.
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May 6, 2017 20:30
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Based on what people have said in this thread and what I read in the news everyday, I will totally vote Labour. Honest.
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May 6, 2017 20:33
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jabby posted:So you think Labour in 2015 should have embraced austerity with more 'conviction', and appealed to 'aspiration'? How the heck is that any different from what the Tories were offering? No, I think that Labour from 2010-2015 should have been shoving the line "The recession put pressure on the public purse, and shows the danger of having an economy too reliant on banking. Other than not regulating the banks New Labour actually got a lot right and after five years of damaging cuts we need to go back to that" into every single speech being made in front of more than two people.
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May 6, 2017 20:33
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Strong leader always running from the chaos jam man.
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May 6, 2017 20:39
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Couple of new polls. https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/860891476586373120 https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/860929669960536064 Broadly the same picture, Labour doing about as well as in the last election but the Tories up significantly from taking UKIP votes. Or to put that another way, CORBYN RUINING LABOUR OMG.
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May 6, 2017 20:42
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Yeah but uh, those polls that traditionally indicate the winner - leadership rating and economic competence, how are those doing?
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May 6, 2017 20:46
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Paracaidas posted:May I present to you: The D&D political spectrum Let me do that far better: True Leftist: Anyone considered perfect by all. Far left: People who believe physically attacking rich people for being rich is morally justified. Leftist: People who believe everyone should have food, healthcare and housing, no matter how poor. Centre Left: People who believe what leftists do, but are willing to compromise with assholes so they can improve things a little. Centrist: People who believe personal popularity is a bigger priority than preventing suffering. Technocrat: Anyone who believes having access to education makes people morally superior. Liberal: Anyone who believes individual rights are more important than preventing starvation. Centre Right: People who hate poor people, but don't want to make potential voters uncomfortable about it. Right Wing: People who want to punish people for being poor or minorities. Fascist: Someone who says a minority powerless to change the situation is responsible for social problems and the only way to solve it is to implement laws to discriminate against that minority. * Alt-right: Fascist, but openly advocating ethnic cleansing. * If a minority of the minority is able to change the situation but won't and the majority of the minority has no way to reliably identify or oppose those people, the minority is considered powerless.
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May 6, 2017 20:55
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endlessmonotony posted:Let me do that far better: Isn't alt-right generally more of a euphemism for fascism? I mean, that was its original purpose.
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May 6, 2017 20:57
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You made a mistake:endlessmonotony posted:Alt-right: Anime nazis Much better.
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May 6, 2017 20:58
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OwlFancier posted:Strong leader always running from the chaos jam man. Vote Chaos 2017. May is so obviously a front for the Original Insect of Law/Singularity. M. Moorcock "The War Amongst The Angels" posted:Chaos had never been able to understand why the Singularity did not simply die from its own internal bile, devoured by its cancerous hatreds and superstitions, its miserable greedy fears; its cruel dreams, its massively exclusive certainties and self-destructive accountancy.
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May 6, 2017 21:00
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Darth Walrus posted:Isn't alt-right generally more of a euphemism for fascism? I mean, that was its original purpose. Original fascists kept denying what they were doing for a very long time. Alt-right is now the people who aren't even trying to pretend they're not in support of genocide.
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May 6, 2017 21:00
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