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ZiegeDame posted:And if that's the case, where did the gun go? Probably right there: ProfessorProf posted:Behind the mansion, in the wild-grown bushes that were almost swallowed up by the forest, there was something like an old well... You could easily like tie a string with something heavy on the end to the gun, shoot yourself, and when you drop dead, the gun is gone and no one will find it unless they are prepared to go down into the well (which Battler of course didn't). edit: wasn't there a Sherlock Holmes story with something similar? font color sea fucked around with this message at 09:22 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 09:17
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I literally can't remember what chapter that is from.
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May 6, 2017 09:47
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font color sea posted:Probably right there: Yep. It was on a bridge though (story is called "The Problem of Thor Bridge" I believe), and the weight of the gun pulled the whole string contraption into the river below. Tired Moritz posted:I literally can't remember what chapter that is from. EP4 when Battler is examining everything prior to having his small bombs duel with Beatrice. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 10:00 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 09:57
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My issue with the ShKannon theory is, who in the house knows? The Ushiromiyas don't seem the type to accept two people sharing a body, maybe Jessica, but even the nicest people struggle with understanding splits, I doubt this family would be like 'yeah, that's cool, just make sure you don't stop cleaning properly (Jess maybe, but the rest of them?). The other explanation is that no one knows, and that has its own host of problems, have Krauss and Natsuhi never called for Shannon and Kanon at the same time? Jessica's never noticed the guy she's crushing on and her best friend have the same face? Or maybe there's some narritive fuckery going on (most likely)
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May 6, 2017 13:26
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ZiegeDame posted:And on the subject Battler looking at dead bodies... If Kanon=Shannon, we must accept that a wig is involved. In episode 2 Battler grabs Shannon's head to peer directly into her brain hole. If she were wearing a wig, he'd probably have noticed. Which means Kanon's hair is the wig and neither appearance can be considered the real one. Yeah, checking back on it, that seems most likely. The Kanon and Beatrice hairs would be wigs. ZiegeDame posted:And in episode 4, all bodies are accounted for except Kanon's. If Shannon's body is Kanon's body, then who was talking to Battler on the balcony? Or did Shannon leave straight from that meeting, put the maid outfit back on, and then blow half her face off in the back yard? Pretty sure that's what happened, yeah. Sayo went out dressed as Beatrice and challenged Battler to remember his promise. When he didn't, she fell into a fit of depression, went out through another door, and shot herself.
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May 6, 2017 13:38
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ZiegeDame posted:It's a double door. And if they were already standing on either side... I checked back to episode 1, and the way that's portrayed really does not look like a double door to me. I'm not sure whether Erika using singular/plural in making that request would matter. Interesting thought that this theory would technically allow for an 18th person X, though that's blocked by the Decalogue. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 13:51 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 13:48
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Graylien posted:My issue with the ShKannon theory is, who in the house knows? The Ushiromiyas don't seem the type to accept two people sharing a body, maybe Jessica, but even the nicest people struggle with understanding splits, I doubt this family would be like 'yeah, that's cool, just make sure you don't stop cleaning properly (Jess maybe, but the rest of them?). The other explanation is that no one knows, and that has its own host of problems, have Krauss and Natsuhi never called for Shannon and Kanon at the same time? Jessica's never noticed the guy she's crushing on and her best friend have the same face? That's always been the problem with this theory, but I mean, you can easily get around with some relatively believable assumptions. Kinzo knows but doesn't care because they're presumably in some way related to the real Beatrice, so they get a pass on everything. (I still think Shannon/Sayo was the cliff baby. We also know that if they are the same person she existed first, as she's worked there for going on 10 years, whereas he only started after Battler's last family conference. Presumably Kanon, and Beatrice if they're different personalities, then came into existence because of Battler's sin. Also, if that line in the last update can be taken as literally as I suspect it can, then Kanon is the majority personality irrespective of how they're currently dressed.) Genji knows but doesn't care because Kinzo was okay with it. Kumasawa knows but doesn't say anything because she seems to be the most empathetic character in the entire story, and has been shown worrying about Kanon/Shannon multiple times. Gohda doesn't know because he's completely oblivious. The challenge becomes Jessica, Natsuhi and Krauss. I don't think even that's too much of a stretch though, because we know that the Fukuin orphans go back to the orphanage when they're not on duty. Just make it really rare that Shannon and Kanon are scheduled to be working together. Bullet dodged. If they only share shifts a few days a year, with Genji and Kumasawa's help you could easily never make them appear in the same place just by scheduling to them to be cleaning "different parts of the mansion". Plus, if Shannon's the older personality (which I think has to be the case) and therefore is physically female, then she and George could even have had sex and that wouldn't matter. We pretty much know that Kanon and Jessica have never been physical in any sense, so that's dodged too. Theorising Shannon as the original does require the return of Breast Binding Technology X though. Of course, it's entirely possible that Umineko's just giving us another red herring. Cyouni posted:Interesting thought that this theory would technically allow for an 18th person X, though that's blocked by the Decalogue. I don't think it is. We've definitely been prepared for one, they've been talking about it on and off since episode 1, and there are multiple people we've seen/had talked about that it could be. Which of Knox's rules specifically would disallow it? CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 14:51 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 14:39
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There's another note: Shannon has the One-Wing eagle tattooed on her thigh, while Kanon wears knickers that completely covers his thighs, thus concealing a very obvious identifying mark.
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May 6, 2017 14:51
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By the way, I updated the list of red truth with the EP5 stuff.CottonWolf posted:if Shannon's the older personality (which I think has to be the case) and therefore is physically female A bit of a rude assertion, don't you think
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May 6, 2017 15:23
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tiistai posted:A bit of a rude assertion, don't you think Yeah, that's fair. I think I mainly defaulted to that because it lined up with my theories about the cliff baby. You're defintely right to call me out on it though. It doesn't follow logically sure, but I do think that the cliff baby was both physically female and Sayo was the personality that inhabited it. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 15:32 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 15:27
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It's come up a few times, but I strongly doubt that Sayo and George have had sex since, regardless of what people like to say about Japan, it's illegal to engage in sex with someone under the age of 18, unless they're married. And the youngest a woman can get married is 16, with parental consent. And Sayo is a 16-year-old orphan. https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/4tj7wp/debunking_the_myth_that_the_age_of_consent_in/ https://jp.usembassy.gov/u-s-citize...6642.1492533601 since the link is broken in the reddit post
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May 6, 2017 15:41
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Given George's personality and their behavior on dates, George strikes me as someone that'll at least wait until engagement to get to second base, let alone anything heavier.
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May 6, 2017 15:41
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Assuming that anything we saw in that date scene was true. If we think Shannon might be (or contain or something) Beatrice, I don't think we can trust any scenes with her in without either Battler (eps 1-4) or Erika in to have happened as we saw them.
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May 6, 2017 15:47
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CottonWolf posted:I don't think it is. We've definitely been prepared for one, they've been talking about it on and off since episode 1, and there are multiple people we've seen/had talked about that it could be. Which of Knox's rules specifically would disallow it? Who do you think qualifies as X, though? The only person I recall being introduced early enough to not get blocked by Knox's 1st is the ship captain. CottonWolf posted:Yeah, that's fair. I think I mainly defaulted to that because it lined up with my theories about the cliff baby. You're defintely right to call me out on it though. We can logically assert that even if Shannon=Kanon, Shannon is the older personality. Physically female is not necessarily true. CottonWolf posted:Assuming that anything we saw in that date scene was true. If we think Shannon might be (or contain or something) Beatrice, I don't think we can trust any scenes with her in without either Battler (eps 1-4) or Erika in to have happened as we saw them. And now we've become Erika. Nothing that's not in red can be trusted.
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May 6, 2017 15:52
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Are there any characters that are "real" that aren't Shannon/Kanon that has magic powers? I don't think Genji had done any magical stuff despite being furniture too.
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May 6, 2017 15:54
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Gohda's cooking is magic and how dare you suggest otherwise
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May 6, 2017 15:56
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Cyouni posted:Who do you think qualifies as X, though? The only person I recall being introduced early enough to not get blocked by Knox's 1st is the ship captain. I agree it's very unlikely there is an extra person at this point. But you have the ship captain, Maria's father and generic other Fukuin orphans, who're referenced or intimated to in the first episode. If we're saying that they just have to have appeared in the first half of the story, there's also the Sumaderas. But yeah, definitely a stretch. Cyouni posted:And now we've become Erika. Nothing that's not in red can be trusted. I'm not saying that! I'm saying that any scene with a hypothesised killer in and no detective can't be trusted. In a way, that makes everything else more trustworthy. It puts bounds on what we we should be questioning, at least whenever demons aren't appearing out of thin air. Tired Moritz posted:Are there any characters that are "real" that aren't Shannon/Kanon that has magic powers? I don't think Genji had done any magical stuff despite being furniture too. Kumasawa turned into Virgilia and then summoned magic swords that one time. E: Oh, George and Jessica too. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 16:02 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 15:57
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Cyouni posted:Who do you think qualifies as X, though? The only person I recall being introduced early enough to not get blocked by Knox's 1st is the ship captain. Ange was mentioned! Don't let the fact that she was 6 fool you Tired Moritz posted:Didn't Natsuhi explicitly said that the cliff baby was a boy? That was why he thought the male phone caller was the baby, right? The opposite: she explicitly said it could've been female and that she wasn't entirely sure. tiistai fucked around with this message at 16:11 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 16:02
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Cyouni posted:
Didn't Natsuhi explicitly said that the cliff baby was a boy? That was why he thought the male phone caller was the baby, right? ProfessorProf posted:Gohda's cooking is magic and how dare you suggest otherwise Gohda earned his cooking skill from hard work and not cheap tactics like "magic".
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May 6, 2017 16:07
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Tired Moritz posted:Didn't Natsuhi explicitly said that the cliff baby was a boy? That was why he thought the male phone caller was the baby, right? That's on me. I'm pretty convinced (in a probably completely unjustified way), that the baby was female, just because in the flashback scenes they very explicitly never refer to the baby's sex, despite implying through the phonecall that it was male. It pricked my Umineko is deceiving us senses.
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May 6, 2017 16:11
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tiistai posted:Ange was mentioned! Don't let the fact that she was 6 fool you Haha! We have the answer now. Ange was on the island, and was the murderer all along! CottonWolf posted:That's on me. I'm pretty convinced (in a probably completely unjustified way), that the baby was female, just because in the flashback scenes they very explicitly never refer to the baby's sex, despite implying through the phonecall that it was male. It pricked my Umineko is deceiving us senses. Genji states that he believes that it's a young man, and that's the thing that informs our perceptions. That and Battler's voice.
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May 6, 2017 16:43
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Robindaybird posted:There's another note: Shannon has the One-Wing eagle tattooed on her thigh, while Kanon wears knickers that completely covers his thighs, thus concealing a very obvious identifying mark. And human Beatrice has the same tattoo... on the opposite thigh from Shannon. Cyouni posted:I checked back to episode 1, and the way that's portrayed really does not look like a double door to me.  This is the best shot I could find of the parlor doors off the top of me head. Looks like double doors to me. (That's the seam between them just above Beato's head.) (The end of EP1 uses the generic door graphic) tiistai posted:Ange was mentioned! Don't let the fact that she was 6 fool you Ahah, the culprit was the time-traveling Witch of Stable Time Loops, ANGE Beatrice. She used her magic powers to travel back in time and kill her family to create the conditions which lead to her developing magic powers. 
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May 6, 2017 17:42
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Cyouni posted:Genji states that he believes that it's a young man, and that's the thing that informs our perceptions. That and Battler's voice. ZiegeDame posted:This is the best shot I could find of the parlor doors off the top of me head. Looks like double doors to me. (That's the seam between them just above Beato's head.) (The end of EP1 uses the generic door graphic) Allow me to interject, because this is getting annoying. No voices existed in the original game except for ahaha.wav! Furthermore, neither did the PS3 sprites or any cgs! In other words, neither of those are proof for or against anything. Fates End fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 20:07
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ZiegeDame posted:And human Beatrice has the same tattoo... on the opposite thigh from Shannon. I'd not spotted that at all. Skimming back over the sin section of episode 4, Battler never comments on it either, so it doesn't have to be literally on that thigh. Fates End posted:Allow me to interject, because this is getting annoying. I can't imagine they're going to add anything that's directly contradictory though. We can only reason of what's presented. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 20:08
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Fates End posted:Allow me to interject, because this is getting annoying. Just because they aren't needed to solve anything doesn't mean they're wrong. I highly doubt the whole mystery is going to hinge (sorry) on what sort of doors the parlor has. I'm pretty sure they just had Daisuke Ono voice the phone call because of the theory Battler presents at the end of the episode. Also because he's already there and why hire a new actor for ten lines.
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May 6, 2017 20:38
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Fates End posted:No voices existed in the- ghhrk! Don't make me laugh, you pathetic child. Not only do vocal songs exist in the original game, so too do voice clips of Commander Data and the Borg Queen!
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May 6, 2017 20:48
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alcharagia posted:Don't make me laugh, you pathetic child. Not only do vocal songs exist in the original game, so too do voice clips of Commander Data and the Borg Queen! Oh my god I never realized that's where those clips were from 
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May 6, 2017 20:52
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[ACCIDENTAL MUSIC/MEME SPOILER HAS BEEN REDACTED]
bii fucked around with this message at 21:32 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 21:26
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ZiegeDame posted:Just because they aren't needed to solve anything doesn't mean they're wrong. I highly doubt the whole mystery is going to hinge (sorry) on what sort of doors the parlor has. I know, it's just that while it's really neat to see people theorizing like back when the games were still being made (why, back in MY day-), it's really frustrating to see people use invalid evidence to support their theories or shoot down other people's theories. alcharagia posted:Don't make me laugh, you pathetic child. Not only do vocal songs exist in the original game, so too do voice clips of Commander Data and the Borg Queen!  O-of course! I realized that! Wait...  System0 first played in the first game! That means that Commander Data and the Borg Queen both fit Knox's 1st! The Ushiromiya family was killed by the Borg! The Borg don't count towards the total of people on the island because they're a soulless hivemind! Simply by the existence of the Umineko no Naku Koro ni soundtrack, this level of reasoning is possible for Fate's End! What do you think, everyone?
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May 6, 2017 22:01
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Tired Moritz posted:Are there any characters that are "real" that aren't Shannon/Kanon that has magic powers? I don't think Genji had done any magical stuff despite being furniture too. Krauss uses a 1000% punch to defeat goat-kun. That follows the rules of anime, which isn't quite magic but is related.
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May 6, 2017 22:04
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alcharagia posted:Don't make me laugh, you pathetic child. Not only do vocal songs exist in the original game, so too do voice clips of Commander Data and the Borg Queen! I'm pretty sure Tsurupettan was mentioned for Jessica's song in Episode 2. I do have to say that's amazing, though. ZiegeDame posted:And human Beatrice has the same tattoo... on the opposite thigh from Shannon. From what I recall, the One-Winged Eagle can't be seen on ep2-Beatrice's other thigh, but that's kinda irrelevant given that can likely be hidden with foundation. It's only ever seen for short bursts, and isn't really examined in detail anyways. Ep 1 and 5 suggest it's a single door, but I don't quite recall the layout of the parlour. There might be two sets of doors to it, which would to some degree resolve it. Alternately, I should take a look at episode 3 for how it's described. Fates End posted:The Ushiromiya family was killed by the Borg! The Borg don't count towards the total of people on the island because they're a soulless hivemind! How amusing! No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
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May 6, 2017 22:23
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alcharagia posted:Don't make me laugh, you pathetic child. Not only do vocal songs exist in the original game, so too do voice clips of Commander Data and the Borg Queen! This is for real the actual weirdest part of umineko.
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May 6, 2017 22:48
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alcharagia posted:Don't make me laugh, you pathetic child. Not only do vocal songs exist in the original game, so too do voice clips of Commander Data and the Borg Queen! Wait, saying what? Where?
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May 6, 2017 22:51
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Artificer posted:Wait, saying what? Where? The first two lines of the track System0. ("Believing oneself to be perfect is...")
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May 6, 2017 23:18
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Cyouni posted:How amusing! No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.  Hehehe... You don't think I already thought of that? Some of the Borg are formerly human! That makes them more-or-less walking corpses, and so they can interact with the game just as Kinzo's corpse can! Fates End fucked around with this message at 23:35 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 23:23
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Cyouni posted:Ep 1 and 5 suggest it's a single door, but I don't quite recall the layout of the parlour. There might be two sets of doors to it, which would to some degree resolve it. Alternately, I should take a look at episode 3 for how it's described. There are two equally valid theories, so neither one can be considered true. Have you considered perhaps that the door is a witch? 
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May 6, 2017 23:55
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ZiegeDame posted:There are two equally valid theories, so neither one can be considered true. Have you considered perhaps that the door is a witch? I Wouldn't put it past this series...
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May 7, 2017 00:06
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Obviously, it's Dooru-chan, the Witch of Entrances and Exits! A witch whose ability concerns the matter of how the absence and presence of pathways and people affect the story.
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May 7, 2017 01:01
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As it turns out, it's a double door in the EP3 manga and a single door in the EP5 manga. Kanon closes it alone in the latter. Truly a damning piece of evidence
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May 7, 2017 02:52
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Robindaybird posted:Obviously, it's Dooru-chan, the Witch of Entrances and Exits! A witch whose ability concerns the matter of how the absence and presence of pathways and people affect the story. Dooru-chan is too OP.  A while back people were saying that Jessica would probably accept Kanon/Shannon for what they were, and how hard it is to say which murders were spur of the moment situations and which were premeditated. I personally believe that the murders of George each time were spur of the moment when it became apparent that Shannon was more than what meets the eyes. I don't know if George would be violent and angry at the revelation, but I think he would try and argue how Shannon and him were 'supposed to be together'.
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