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Cease to Hope posted:it turns out the real monster... Well yeah, with the exception of Demons every monster in the WoD used to be human in some form. Of course the real monster is man, you're all men!
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May 6, 2017 01:29
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(Except for the women and nonbinary folks, who can be monsters, too. Let us not forget the women and nb folks who eat people and do murders.)
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May 6, 2017 01:30
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Mors Rattus posted:(Except for the women and nonbinary folks, who can be monsters, too. Let us not forget the women and nb folks who eat people and do murders.) You know what I meant! <  >
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May 6, 2017 01:31
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Kavak posted:It can work both ways. The average employee would react to that revelation about the board with "Am I still getting paid, and for how long?" Yeah. Just because the highest level of the company has some sinister agenda doesn't mean that literally 99% of the rest of the company aren't a bunch of greedy sociopaths that are fully on board with Cheiron's agenda of profit through exploitation of supernatural beings. It's kind of like how Task Force Valkyrie is funded by vampires but it doesn't really detract from the overall theme. Rather, it opens up opportunities for a big capstone arc kind of like what TFV has if you hit the top level of status. All of the top tier conspiracies have some sort of massive drawback like that. Though, now i'm picturing a bunch of high powered corporate climbers deciding to depose the board of director's so they can get back to the real work of making a quick buck. All while bitching about how this world domination crap is for saturday morning cartoon villains. Archonex fucked around with this message at 01:59 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 01:33
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My favorite theory is that Cheiron was totally founded by Beings Beyond who have subsequently been pushed out of controlling positions because rampant capitalism is more horrible and inhuman than any number of tentacles.
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May 6, 2017 01:37
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Actually the vampire thing does detract. nWoD vampires do not and should not actually run the government.
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May 6, 2017 01:37
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Mors Rattus posted:Actually the vampire thing does detract. nWoD vampires do not and should not actually run the government. They don't, really. The Barret Commission is proof of that. Never mind that vampires tend to freak out when politicians and such get influenced by vampires. Even screwing with a senator or governor is enough of a big deal that there's a plot blurb in the Chicago book about how either the vampire or the politician is probably going to have to deal with assassination attempts from a bunch of vampires that are terrified of the idea of being outed. TFV is pretty much it's own thing that has some internal corruption issues. The root problem being that the government is...Well, the government. Even assuming there aren't more austerity cuts as a result of a political ploy or economic downturn they don't get much from them. At the best of times they can only expect to be able to get so much dark money allocated to TFV through various confidential appropriations from higher ups in the government that are read in on the conspiracy. It's not much either. Like a couple hundred thousand, I think? It's heavily suggested that instead of trying to control the conspiracy the board that handles when to make the decision to eliminate a vampire has had at least some members that were compromised. More to the point, the people who actually carry out the eliminations are starting to clue on to the fact that something is very wrong with those same few people. Which means that the vampires are liable to get kicked out in the future. Of course the irony is that if TFV kills the vampires then the funding will stop. Which means the conspiracy will have to either downgrade it's effectiveness, find a new donor, get the government to actually pony up the cash it needs to run effectively, or get into criminal activities like the Ascending Ones do. Archonex fucked around with this message at 02:04 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 01:50
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You're not gonna convince me that 'TFV is secretly funded by vampires' was anything but the stupidest and most boring possible option here, bud.
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May 6, 2017 02:02
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Mors Rattus posted:You're not gonna convince me that 'TFV is secretly funded by vampires' was anything but the stupidest and most boring possible option here, bud. Eh, whatever. I was just pointing out that it was more complex than that.
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May 6, 2017 02:03
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Oh, I should point out that another problem that C20 seems to have expunged is the old "I'm not saying all Unseelie are murderous psychopaths? But all Unseelie are murderous psychopaths." If anything, they seem to have softened all the Houses, so that the designated villains aren't that any longer, which is interesting for a book that's pretty hard on the sidhe in general. Even House Balor (who in a previous review I described as the ones who actually are all murderous psychopaths) get presented as playable.
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May 6, 2017 02:56
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Spector29 posted:So, as someone who's pretty familiar with Mage and moderately familiar with both Demon and Vampire, what do you think I should pitch to my friend who just left his oWerewolf game? Rand Brittain posted:Are we talking WoD, NoD, CoD, or hot bod here? New world of darkness. I dislike how inconstant the rules are (and in some case hard to find) in the Old World.
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May 6, 2017 03:04
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Changeling: The Lost is cool and good but it's getting a 2E soon so maybe hold on a little longer. Werewolf: The Forsaken is great. In some ways it's as much of a departure from the traditional concept of werewolf stories as Demon is from Judeo-Christian folklore, it's just not as obvious about it. The book is a little hard to read though because it really loves its nonsensical conlang bullshit, but conceptually it's awesome. It's this great mix of inherited guilt, bravado, taking on a job that's too big for all of you, and basically being a ticking time bomb because your abusive mother who is also a defense matrix against an alien invasion is still mad at you for killing dad. I don't really know enough about Hunter or Mummy to have strong opinions, but neither concept really appeals to me all that much.
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May 6, 2017 05:29
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Mr. Maltose posted:My favorite theory is that Cheiron was totally founded by Beings Beyond who have subsequently been pushed out of controlling positions because rampant capitalism is more horrible and inhuman than any number of tentacles. That's my preferred take. The Cthulus basically are just looking on in horror at this point.
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May 6, 2017 05:40
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Obligatum VII posted:That's my preferred take. The Cthulus basically are just looking on in horror at this point. "Wwwhat izz vwrong vwviff thesze pweople!?"
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May 6, 2017 06:02
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The best version of "Vampires are responsible for funding TFV" is that it's a secret cabal of really patriotic vampires. Like, they aren't trying to take over the government or anything, donating money to government monster hunting initiatives is one of their touchstones because TFV was their idea before they got turned.
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May 6, 2017 06:27
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I'm actually finding myself liking C20. Most of my grievances so far have been more 'oh god drat it' accidents or minor annoyances, and they're finally reinforcing an outright 'no, science is not inherently banal. It's actually a potentially huge well of inspiration and creativity!' stance.
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May 6, 2017 06:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't really know enough about Hunter or Mummy to have strong opinions, but neither concept really appeals to me all that much. Hunter: the Vigil is basically what most people wanted Hunter: the Reckoning to be. If you want a WoD game that's about hunting monsters then Vigil is pretty much the best realized version that you're going to get. It's fairly flexible as to what type of monster hunting game you want to focus on as opposed to Reckoning which had a Core Vision and consequently, while Frailty: the RPG might be a concept worth exploring, more people wanted a game that could run the gamut from working-class stiffs keeping their neighborhood safe with nothing more than grit and a shotgun to ultra-elite government sponsored black ops teams or cabals with supernatural powers, and that's what Vigil is and it does its job well.
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May 6, 2017 08:05
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TFV's control by vampires owns.
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May 6, 2017 08:11
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One day when the Silver Ladder breaks open the Heavens to challenge the Exarchs, they'll find the whole place a mess with vampires sinking their fangs into the local power structures. Those pests get everywhere.
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May 6, 2017 15:36
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Kai Tave posted:Hunter: the Vigil is basically what most people wanted Hunter: the Reckoning to be. If you want a WoD game that's about hunting monsters then Vigil is pretty much the best realized version that you're going to get. It's fairly flexible as to what type of monster hunting game you want to focus on as opposed to Reckoning which had a Core Vision and consequently, while Frailty: the RPG might be a concept worth exploring, more people wanted a game that could run the gamut from working-class stiffs keeping their neighborhood safe with nothing more than grit and a shotgun to ultra-elite government sponsored black ops teams or cabals with supernatural powers, and that's what Vigil is and it does its job well. Frailty: The RPG sounds much cooler to me
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May 6, 2017 17:04
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Well, since the WoD:FRance stuff got included (and that one's a real tricky area otherwise since it's licensing was a little, uh, irregular) there's now a Kith that explicitly mostly become lawyers, judges, and historians. So I guess law is officially, undeniably not banal anymore.
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May 6, 2017 17:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Frailty: The RPG sounds much cooler to me Reckoning was marketed pretty badly with a pretty big gap between the promotional artwork that implied a game where you might have grizzled bikers with shotguns loaded with silver slugs hunting werewolves or Buffy-esque slayers killing overconfident vampires and instead delivered a game about soccer moms having unmedicated schizophrenic episodes where voices in their heads told them to murder their neighbor, with an authorial voice that regularly seemed to suggest that the very notion of hunting monsters in the World of Darkness was a laughable pursuit. Was it an interesting concept? Maybe, I didn't find it especially compelling enough to be the singular focus of an entire line, and the thing is that it probably wouldn't be too tremendously difficult to recreate something similar in Vigil if you wanted to, which also provides players and groups with different tastes the foundation to run different sorts of games if they decide they want something more in the vein of VASCU or playing a group of Union hunters or working for Cheiron.
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May 6, 2017 18:40
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Kai Tave posted:Reckoning was marketed pretty badly with a pretty big gap between the promotional artwork that implied a game where you might have grizzled bikers with shotguns loaded with silver slugs hunting werewolves or Buffy-esque slayers killing overconfident vampires and instead delivered a game about soccer moms having unmedicated schizophrenic episodes where voices in their heads told them to murder their neighbor, with an authorial voice that regularly seemed to suggest that the very notion of hunting monsters in the World of Darkness was a laughable pursuit. Every time I've played it, it's been Buffy-esque slayers killing vampires or grizzled bikers (or muscle car owners) with silver bullets and rock salt hunting werewolves and ghosts. Because it's much cooler to play it like it's Buffy or Supernatural. If I wanted it to be something else, I'd just play one of the other game lines that pull off angst and/or political melodrama better. In hunter, it should be considered a good hunt if everyone comes back alive. Really though, I get why it could be fun to play tier 3 organizations, but tier 1 and 2 are just so much more fun because the odds are very much less in your favor (or at least should be).
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May 6, 2017 19:39
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Jhet posted:Really though, I get why it could be fun to play tier 3 organizations, but tier 1 and 2 are just so much more fun because the odds are very much less in your favor (or at least should be).
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May 6, 2017 20:55
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Loomer posted:Well, since the WoD:FRance stuff got included (and that one's a real tricky area otherwise since it's licensing was a little, uh, irregular) there's now a Kith that explicitly mostly become lawyers, judges, and historians. So I guess law is officially, undeniably not banal anymore. What is banal, now? Or alternately, unbanal?
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May 6, 2017 21:56
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Things that are Banal: The Great Depression, though there is at least mention that the banality is more to do with millions of people having to let their dreams die as they lost the farm and of the artwork being produced out of the suffering being distinctly Unbanal. Industry World War 1 and 2 Russia. Like, as a whole country. Banality central, maaaan. The late 2000 and 2010s, like, generally. Apparently we human beings are more skeptical than ever and it sucks - which is weird, because I'd say with the growth of the internet, self-publishing, and the growth of hipster artisanal production like Etsy et al, we've actually got a lot more avenues to go full 'I need to create' and actually expose our ideas, hopes, and dreams to a mass audience without corporate gatekeepers getting in the way than we did in the 90s. Not to mention the growth of online roleplaying communities that provide a place for people to try and experience being something Else. Bad reviews of bad plays Standardized testing and learning-for-the-test (And fair enough, to be honest. At least it's no longer 'school = banal', just 'mindless rote learning = banal') Generalized notions of sameness and conformity. Banality 'seeks to explain away the fantastic and categorize, empiricize, contain and render mundane anything outside the scope of accepted mortal understanding'. So, UFO debunkers and the Amazing Randi, then. Also, this list. 'Denying novel ideas' for childlings 'Denying opportunities for adventure' for wilders ('Given a choice between going on an epic quest - or even a road trip - or going to work the next morning? That's not even a choice.' But what if the job entails the creation of wonder and awe in children, for instance? Is it banal to refuse to abandon the needy wee ones who need an adult in their life who encourages them to never stop dreaming for a road trip to fight a hallucinatory dragon while tripping balls in the parking lot at Arby's six states away?) 'Failing to provide what your charges need' for Grumps (Apparently the answer is yes, but only for grumps. It's totally fine for the twenty-two year old wilder TA to abandon her class of kids yearning to hear the next story of King Arthur to fight an imaginary dragon, but not for a Grump.) Exhibiting basic self-control, if you're a Satyr Art critics. The usual triggers -killing a changeling, murdering people (except ordinary people. That's not banal, only killing Dreamer is), breaking oaths, etc. Talking to other people on an airplane. Making decisions based on practicality, not on personal appeal. Watching competitive cooking shows. Playing MMOs. Megachurches and office cubicles. Psychiatrists who overprescribe medication. Which is at least a step up from the old 'psychiatrists in general' stance, and a legitimate grievance to have. Banality now has no link whatsoever to mental health, whether there are treated or untreated illnesses in play, so that's a good change. Negative comments on street art. Buying a nice house (technically, the example is haunted by the banality of the previous occupant.) Reality TV. 'The Undone' - mortal remnants of dead fae driven mad, taking the archetypal form of... Alien hunters? (Dale Gribble is an ex-changeling. This explains so much. But was he a sluagh or a pooka?) Ultimately, it seems to be anything that makes you put down your dreams and makes you disengage from the world. At least that's it in theory, but in practice there's a bunch of weirdness in there too. Like Russia being banality central as an entire nation, the whole 'we're more banal than ever' because we're more cynical towards propaganda than ever, etc. Things that are not Banal: Landing on the moon. The Renaissance. The Roaring Twenties (how cool was Boardwalk Empire? So cool, right?) Barack Obama's election End of Apartheid Fall of the Berlin Wall The 90s. Hoarding Gambling Cloud Storage Banality 4-5 people: "These are the sort of people who paint a perfect replica of the night sky on their ceiling “because they felt like it,” or spend years of their lives painstakingly creating a patchwork map of a fantastic fictional world." So good news, apparently our obsession with fantasy worlds makes us unBanal. I'm pretty sure my charts skyrocket me way up to 10 though, so I'm hosed either way. Finally finishing your novel. Tumblr Getting good at video games 9/11. Yes, really. Vampires are no longer inherently banal, but Ravnos apparently hate and despise changelings now, to the point of violence and destruction. Get of Fenris and Sidhe are now mortal enemies, but Kitsune, Nuwisha, the Uktena and the Fianna are all fine. Technocrats are still walking banality pools, but apparently Hermetics aren't which is hilarious to me because if any magical tradition loves a good chart and the calming reliability of an ordered and reasonable (but magical) cosmos, it's the Order. Mummies are walking glamour hoards. Demons are neutral, both glamorous and banal.
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May 7, 2017 03:19
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Seems like it's still a nebulous, awful concept with no clear definition to me, it's just the definition of "stuff the authors don't like that get filed under it" is modestly more modern. I mean, it's better, but I'm not sure Banality can essentially be fixed without a total redefinition, because one person's boring baseball is another's awe-inspiring American tradition.
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May 7, 2017 03:34
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What if the video game I get good at is an MMO?
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May 7, 2017 03:37
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Mors Rattus posted:What if the video game I get good at is an MMO? Don't play Skinner Box Online, you could be refining a real skill, a creative passion, like competitive Street Fighter. Alien Rope Burn posted:Seems like it's still a nebulous, awful concept with no clear definition to me, it's just the definition of "stuff the authors don't like that get filed under it" is modestly more modern. I mean, it's better, but I'm not sure Banality can essentially be fixed without a total redefinition, because one person's boring baseball is another's awe-inspiring American tradition. They do actually touch on this briefly, so there's been an attempt to push there.
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May 7, 2017 03:38
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Loomer posted:Things that are not Banal:
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May 7, 2017 04:40
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Lots to unpack but what? What? "...Though many sidhe sneer at technology as being inherently banal, the Eiluned understand that as much magic lies within a keystroke or a piece of code as in a moldering text. They have a particular fascination with cloud storage, implementing their own mystical version as a way to store lore and confidential information so that other Eiluned may access it from anywhere..." I could have written 'technology', but just going with cloud storage was much funnier.
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May 7, 2017 04:49
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Loomer posted:"...Though many sidhe sneer at technology as being inherently banal, the Eiluned understand that as much magic lies within a keystroke or a piece of code as in a moldering text. They have a particular fascination with cloud storage, implementing their own mystical version as a way to store lore and confidential information so that other Eiluned may access it from anywhere..."
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May 7, 2017 04:53
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I wonder if they realize the cloud is just another computer or set of computers elsewhere.
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May 7, 2017 05:15
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Okay, you're going to have to quote the tumblr and 9/11 ones, because I'm having trouble believing you even with how trustworthy you've proven yourself to be.
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May 7, 2017 05:20
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9/11 is UnBanal because of the plethora of fanciful conspiracy theories that sprung up in its wake.
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May 7, 2017 05:38
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"Only those whose minds are closed to wonder and who live out grey, dull lives truly believe that jet fuel can melt steel beams."
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May 7, 2017 05:39
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So if you carve out joy and wonder from something otherwise Banal, do you successfully un-Banalaize it?
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May 7, 2017 05:57
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Capitalism is the ultimate form of banality, as it kills creativity to transform everything into soulless money-makers.
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May 7, 2017 06:03
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Fossilized Rappy posted:Okay, you're going to have to quote the tumblr and 9/11 ones, because I'm having trouble believing you even with how trustworthy you've proven yourself to be. That's fair. "Kithain named the event the Evanescence. Mortals know it as September 11, 2001... The last vestiges of the Silver Ban restricting the Thallain burned out in the onslaught of Dark Glamour, and the children of the Fomorians flooded back to Earth in numbers rivaling the sidhe during the Resurgence..." Dark Glamour, notably, is still undefined even though it was meant to get a write-up in Book of Glamour. But we can fairly safely say it isn't Banality, which means that 9/11 was UnBanal and Glamorous. Just, you know, nightmare glamour. Page 369. "Such is Tabitha’s wit and charisma that she is able to hide Banality’s slow but steady infiltration of her soul beneath happy tales and a smile that lights up an entire room. One would think inspiration comes easy to her, but she is estranged from mortalkind by the dissonance of her Eshu and human halves, though she moves Heaven and Earth to conceal the most obvious giveaways — shoulders too broad, chin too wide, a laugh a little too deep and loud, and so on. When Tabitha seeks to spurn Banality in a way worthy of a tale, she feels most comfortable doing so at a great remove — thankfully, even this Banal era has the perfect tool for her! One Tumblr account later, she’s a part of a thriving (if easily excited) community. One Twitter account later, and her perfectly composed messages are spreading across the city, across the world! This is not a movement Tabitha started, but it’s a movement she’s right at home in, weaving facts into an emotional resonance that motivates her peers into real action, which in turn inspires others, all without leaving the safety of her own apartment." Page 273. Nessus posted:So if you carve out joy and wonder from something otherwise Banal, do you successfully un-Banalaize it? Not from how I've read it, but it isn't really stated either way. You can, at least, de-banalize a human, but not activities from what I've seen so far.
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May 7, 2017 06:33
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Banality is something that should've been left in the trash can, where it belongs. Admittedly, along with most of the oWoD.
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