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Luminous Cow posted:I played a game as KT today on braxis holdout, and I played what had to be the worst players ever. A valla that dove in and stood in your face to attack, a tracer that would stand still for seconds at a time, or dive into me while I stood under a tower, and an illidan who refused to dive. I got lots of kills that game. I faced an ETC who would mount up and ride to inactive temples on Sky Temple during the objective phase.
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May 7, 2017 18:38
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Poultron posted:No it doesn't man, go look up the history of Mortal Strike in WoW to see why it's always just a terrible arms race 1) I would say a comparison to League is more appropriate than a comparison to WoW. 2) The MS effects vs Healing was actually more based on having to account for both PvE and PvP, so healing always had to be completely bonkers retarded because a healer had to be able to keep like 10 people up (per healer) through a long rear end boss fight, so when they just had to keep 2 up in an arena, nobody could stop them. Even with MS effects, they still had to add Dampening in arenas or healers would literally be unkillable. 3) Even with all the MS effects removed except for Mortal Strike itself, healers are still bonkers because the people who influence balance believe fights should take 10 minutes a piece because longer fights allegedly mean more counterplay? Plus, Mortal Strike doesn't affect shields, which is sort of their counterbalance in League, where you have your heal supports and your shield supports and you can do something about the heals with items but shields you just have to stack more damage or wait for the shields to run out. If Mortal Strike becomes "necessary to play the game", it will be precisely because healers have become that oppressive. That said, with the small champion pool (compared to other MOBAs), they should be able to much more easily go in and reduce healing on specific champions if it becomes that OP. They don't have to worry about itemization magnifying the changes, so they do have a lot more control than other MOBAs or WoW either one would to just nerf the heals directly.
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May 7, 2017 18:40
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chumbler posted:Yeah the "Nobody plays support because they want MLG pro kda" argument is usually not true. Nobody wants to play support because it means losing a ton of ability to influence the outcome of the game due to how narrowly supports are typically made. Yeah, I agree with this. Now, Lt. Morales is my most-played single hero by a large margin, so I'm definitely not exactly the average here. But even as someone who ENJOYS healbotting, there are a lot of times I get frustrated at having basically zero wave clear, merc ability, etc. I certainly don't need Sylvanas-level PvE on every character, but like you and others have said it gets old to lose so much of that ability to influence. I love making green bars fill, but I love having well-rounded characters too.
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May 7, 2017 18:45
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Richard Bong posted:I really enjoy tassadar and brightwing in qm because of the anti stealth hero toolkit options. It's always funny to pop oracle a couple seconds after I see a shimmer in a team fight so you can catch them way out of place. Also getting the reveal for brightwings teleport or polymorphing valeera as she starts her combo. I got Tassadar to level 5 in QM this week, and it felt great to constantly pop oracle against really bad Valeera/Zeratul players that just hover on top of enemy heroes the entire time they are invisible. I would have my lane ally follow me off the side of the lane, really obvious right in front of creep wave so anyone could see it. Stand still 5 seconds. Pop oracle. Wow, a Valeera just sitting there next to us! Again! How do I keep guessing??? Sometimes they would just stand there, not even run away or attack. Just sit there and die. I remember the same thing happening with Rikimaru in dota, now and then you'd fight someone really bad and they would just sit there after being revealed. Against the same bad stealth players, it's also great to pop oracle at the end of a teamfight. They always hover near the guy on your team that almost died, waiting for everyone to go back to lanes. Stealth is good against QM baddies, but stealth reveal is even better against QM stealth baddies.
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May 7, 2017 19:48
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Mind over Matter posted:Yeah, I agree with this. Now, Lt. Morales is my most-played single hero by a large margin, so I'm definitely not exactly the average here. But even as someone who ENJOYS healbotting, there are a lot of times I get frustrated at having basically zero wave clear, merc ability, etc. I certainly don't need Sylvanas-level PvE on every character, but like you and others have said it gets old to lose so much of that ability to influence. Not to harp on this too much but if you do end up doing that, you get League-style awful hero design where everyone has exactly the same kit. As I understand it they've gotten better about this lately but I would much rather Supports can't do literally everything, even if it does come at the expense of a bit of fun.
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May 7, 2017 19:54
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Also on the topic of being support and then losing a match you feel you could have won as a DPS hero, that is something you can't really avoid with MOBAs because of the team fight aspect. It doesn't even need to be heals, you can have great buffs for your team or debuffs for the other team, or like Abathur where you piggyback inside another hero. They all have one thing in common: you are not directly hurting the other team. As a support, you are placing your hero's potential (and your trust) in your teamate. If your ally wastes your buff or ignores your heal and keeps walking back to fountain, then you are entirely ineffective. That's like missing 100% of your skillshots against enemies, all match long. And you can't even aim better. You just have to pray that your ally will stop being a dingus. they won't That said, I love playing support heroes, but I only pick them when I am playing with a friend on my team, someone who I know will make use of my buffs and heals. It's not a skill level thing, it's just being in sync with your ally and making the most of your support skills. Getting to play a support hero like that is so much fun. Y'alls some peanut butter and some jelly, rolling around the map and making hero kill sammiches.
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May 7, 2017 20:08
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Mind over Matter posted:Yeah, I agree with this. Now, Lt. Morales is my most-played single hero by a large margin, so I'm definitely not exactly the average here. But even as someone who ENJOYS healbotting, there are a lot of times I get frustrated at having basically zero wave clear, merc ability, etc. I certainly don't need Sylvanas-level PvE on every character, but like you and others have said it gets old to lose so much of that ability to influence. I like the idea of different support characters having different niches, which for some is "strong heals and damage mitigation, but little other contribution" The whole "Make them all Tyrande or Tassadar" school of thought would make me stop playing support. I'll also admit I never play Morales unless I'm in enough of a stack that I know I'm not going to be soloing a lane. It's deceptive to say the heal focused supports don't influence the game. I mean they rarely are the flashy playmaker, but Morales keeping say a hammer up and out of your range or making sure the fight dragged on until you ran out of mana IS a strong impact. The whole "Make it more rare/costly" argument some bring up also leans towards the making the real source of healing the ults which is boring. I like being able to choose my ult, not always taking the heal just in case. Which with a solo support is almost always what you take because no random pub takes their survival talents if there's a support.
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May 7, 2017 20:22
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Poultron posted:Not to harp on this too much but if you do end up doing that, you get League-style awful hero design where everyone has exactly the same kit. As I understand it they've gotten better about this lately but I would much rather Supports can't do literally everything, even if it does come at the expense of a bit of fun. Can you explain how you figure every League hero has the same kit? Because that isn't remotely true, even at a cursory glance. Also, we'll see how unique HOTS is when they get to 150 champs or whatever. 
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May 7, 2017 20:26
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Coolness Averted posted:I like the idea of different support characters having different niches, which for some is "strong heals and damage mitigation, but little other contribution" The whole "Make them all Tyrande or Tassadar" school of thought would make me stop playing support. I'll also admit I never play Morales unless I'm in enough of a stack that I know I'm not going to be soloing a lane. When we say they don't influence the game it is meant in a very direct sense. Obviously healing influences a fight, but it's not really control in any way. There is very little a Morales can do to directly affect what is happening in the game like clearing minion waves or mercs, and she contributes near zero damage or ability to reveal (outside of a talent). That being said, Morales is basically the worst case example for this and was a dumb idea, which they seem to recognize. The rest of the supports aren't in her position, and the double or triple support team is a somewhat unrelated issue. Long story short, dedicated or close to it healers are always a bad idea and should never be added to games.
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May 7, 2017 20:29
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I've been out of this game for a while, but how do you deal with a Valeera past level 10? I am playing Cassia now, and it seems like if she jumps on my past 10 (even when I'm looking for the drat shimmer, it still happens!) there is nothing I can do. Stunned, about a million damage happens, and if I manage to blind her or whatever, she does that unrevealable ult and keeps wailing on me. I tried to run, but with no escape on Cassia, I was just a sitting duck. Is the answer really as easy as "don't get caught."?
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May 7, 2017 20:50
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Don't be far away from your teammates. She shouldn't be able to burst you down from full. Cassia is pretty tanky, Valeera really shouldn't be able to gank you unless you are way out of position and/or low on health.
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May 7, 2017 20:54
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Chaitai posted:I've been out of this game for a while, but how do you deal with a Valeera past level 10? I am playing Cassia now, and it seems like if she jumps on my past 10 (even when I'm looking for the drat shimmer, it still happens!) there is nothing I can do. Stunned, about a million damage happens, and if I manage to blind her or whatever, she does that unrevealable ult and keeps wailing on me. I tried to run, but with no escape on Cassia, I was just a sitting duck. Is the answer really as easy as "don't get caught."? stay near team, blind then fend for huge heals, walk away.
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May 7, 2017 20:57
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I feel like morales could use a bit more wave clear, but nowhere in the range of the others. I like having a single target healer as an option as long as there are some trade offs. Morales can heal a lot, but as a trade off it's only on one hero and she can't do much else. Considering the use I get out of the other heroes' utility kit, I feel like it's a meaningful decision. Richard Bong fucked around with this message at 21:00 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 20:57
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Richard Bong posted:Something conceptually simple like raynor lili or ETC I'll probably stick to this group then. I'm sure any teammates unlucky enough to have me would thank you.
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May 7, 2017 20:58
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Is falstad any good right now? Every game he's been on my team we inevitably lose (including if Im playing him) and he just doesn't seem to do much regardless of using Q or auto attack build. I get the big play potential with gust and his mount ability, but his complete lack of presence otherwise just feels awful.
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May 7, 2017 21:37
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Primetime posted:Is falstad any good right now? Every game he's been on my team we inevitably lose (including if Im playing him) and he just doesn't seem to do much regardless of using Q or auto attack build. He's good on big maps (like Sky Temple), in fact he's being played at UGC today
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May 7, 2017 21:42
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He's good at everything except killing people. So you can get great soak, disengages, or pick set ups. But he just lacks the damage to really kill someone in a team fight. So he basically gets better as player skill goes up but he's really bad at lower levels where understanding the concept of soaking or taking advantage of gusts is lacking.
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May 7, 2017 21:44
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I can't say about mid level play, but at low MMR I had no trouble tearing it up with Falstad this week. Like Artanis, you can build him with shield talents and he is deceptively tanky, since he doesn't display all the HP he will have during a fight. Drop his W on a squishy hero and force them to back out of a small fight, leaving their ally alone. I had one game vs TLV and landed a laser beam ult that had zero cooldown from hitting so many heroes. Does it count illusions as heroes hit as well? I don't think I fought any illusion heroes while getting him to level 5. Malf and Valla are 2000 gold now, snagged them real fast. I'm trying to decide between Anub or Thrall next since they are 4000 gold, both look fun. I got one of the legendary Anub robot skins so I'll probably go with that.
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May 7, 2017 21:54
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Highly recommend going Hinterlands Blast over Gust unless you and the rest of the team have a very specific idea of exactly how this comp will be capitalizing on Gust.
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May 7, 2017 21:56
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Metal Meltdown posted:If I want serious frontline impact in my healer, I go Kharazim or Rehgar. Kharazim builds a DPS spec even when healing, so you he's great in comps where you have folks who can dive with you on the enemy backline. As Rehgar, Taking double lightning shield at 1 allows you to bully just about any lane with a buddy and even allows you strong solo wave clear and merc camps if you just cast the initial shield on your totem. How do you build an effective monk nowadays, anyway? I tried the other day and just ended up sucking.
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May 7, 2017 22:22
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Is it just me or is Varian really oppressive in QM? Seems like now that everyone defaults to the shield wall build you better have a crap load of CC or you're in for a bad time.
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May 7, 2017 22:42
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Coolness Averted posted:I like the idea of different support characters having different niches, which for some is "strong heals and damage mitigation, but little other contribution" The whole "Make them all Tyrande or Tassadar" school of thought would make me stop playing support. I'll also admit I never play Morales unless I'm in enough of a stack that I know I'm not going to be soloing a lane. You and Poultron absolutely do have a valid point here. You're entirely correct that heals are a valid influence in and of themselves, and not every character needs to be good at everything. On some level it's just me having wishful thinking, because if Morales had average wave clear why the gently caress would I personally ever want to play anything else? She'd be my perfect hero. I agree, I do not want them all to be Tyrande and Tassadar. I'm just dreaming of being a solo queue superstar, I suppose. lordfrikk posted:Is it just me or is Varian really oppressive in QM? Seems like now that everyone defaults to the shield wall build you better have a crap load of CC or you're in for a bad time. It's not just you, Blizzard knows this and they're reclassifying him as a tank as far as matchmaking goes in an upcoming patch.
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May 7, 2017 22:43
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Mind over Matter posted:It's not just you, Blizzard knows this and they're reclassifying him as a tank as far as matchmaking goes in an upcoming patch. So exactly that thing I suggested earlier and people told me it was more complicated than that.
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May 7, 2017 22:51
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Kai Tave posted:So exactly that thing I suggested earlier and people told me it was more complicated than that. I mean, QM comps will still be poo poo after that too.
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May 7, 2017 22:52
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I mean it's just going to take Varian from being oppressive to the enemy team to oppressive to his own team because it will be assumed he's a tank when half the people in QM aren't going to play him that way. So it is more complex than that. But the people that are complaining after the change are a different set of complaints, so they can say they did something about the old problem and will work on a fix for new one. It's like tech support! Oh, your computer is on fire now? Well you called in about your printer not working, so when you get your computer to not be on fire, call back but for now I'm closing your ticket.
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May 7, 2017 22:56
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Gustav posted:I mean, QM comps will still be poo poo after that too. I never said they wouldn't be, just that it was silly to let someone capable of turning himself into a no-fooling tank through as Not A Tank for matchmaking purposes. Like how else did they figure that was going to play out?
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May 7, 2017 22:55
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Gustav posted:Highly recommend going Hinterlands Blast over Gust unless you and the rest of the team have a very specific idea of exactly how this comp will be capitalizing on Gust. If all I did with gust was blow the bad guys away from my idiot team it would already be extremely valuable.
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May 7, 2017 22:57
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Zaodai posted:I mean it's just going to take Varian from being oppressive to the enemy team to oppressive to his own team because it will be assumed he's a tank when half the people in QM aren't going to play him that way. I agree with you, but better a dumbass Varian screws his own team than gets easy mode over the enemy team.
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May 7, 2017 22:59
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Mind over Matter posted:I agree with you, but better a dumbass Varian screws his own team than gets easy mode over the enemy team. I would disagree, as I feel the point is largely that a champion should be an asset to their team, so they probably should have dealt with his matchmaking issues in other ways, but ultimately QM is QM and you're going to get clown fiestas from time to time in one direction or the other, so it doesn't really change much in that regard. If he's loving one team over, whether it is the friendly or enemy team, you're going to be on the team that gets hosed over about half the time. So now it just lets you be like "aw, it's a goddamn Varian!" when he's on your team instead of theirs. 
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May 7, 2017 23:03
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Fuzz posted:How do you build an effective monk nowadays, anyway? I tried the other day and just ended up sucking. Gonna make a bit of an effort post here since Kharazim is my favorite character. Level 1, you go Iron Fists. It's roughly a 36% damage increase to all of your attacks except SSS, and it gives movement speed. Since Khara has zero crowd control, movement speed is key if you wanna smack anybody. Transcendence healing is really weak, and Insight gives you some serious sustain but neither really touches Iron Fists. Level 4 is really comp dependent. In most cases, it's Earth Ally. If it's a mage heavy enemy comp and you're solo healing, spirit is decent. Only take Air if you need the de-stealth. At level 7, you ALWAYS take Blinding Speed. More dashes is your lifeblood as Kharazim. Heavenly Zeal isn't terrible, but always be dashing. Blazing fists is junk. Both ults at viable at 10. I usually take SSS. It makes you super dangerous 1v1, and even has defensive utility since you're invincible during the animation. It's even better if your team can displace enemy dudes like with a Diablo or Artanis so you can get easy isolated targets. It can be tough to get value out of it if the enemy team is Lost Vikings/Rexxar/Samuro since they'll just tank hits. If the enemy team has a lot of burst, or has those previously mentioned heroes, go palm. 13 is the most versatile level. Everything here is situationally decent. Take Spell Shield or Sixth Sense if the enemy team is packed with ability damage or lockdown respectively. Fists of fury is solid on maps where you're gonna be punching an objective, such as BoE, Spider, or Mines. Quicksilver allows for great chase and escape, but it does have anti-synergy with my favorite 16 talent. 16 grants Way of the Hundred Fists. At this point, you are now a loving terror to any enemy backliners. Keep in mind you can move while doing this attack, so you can just stay on top of them as you Hokuto no Ken their rear end. Cleansing touch is alright, but I'd only ever pick it if your comp already has damage for days and you took quicksilver at the previous level. Echo of Heaven significantly increases sustained healing, but is a negative against burst. Dash of Light is generally bleh. 20 has two really solid picks. I think both of the level 10 improvement talents are rather bad. Transgression does excellent damage, but it really takes an eternity to unload all those hits, at which point your target probably already escaped the radius. The divine palm improvement is trash. If you seriously whiff a palm, 5 seconds is still far too long to save that target. Storm Shield is the default pick. Epiphany is picked if you wanna just go all in with Way of the Hundred Fists, which isn't a bad plan. Kharazim can carry his own weight as a solo healer if you're leveraging his AoE heal well, but I like him best as a secondary support against drafts with a lot of squishes who want to hug the backline. Dive in with a buddy or two and watch people die.
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May 7, 2017 23:04
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Zaodai posted:I would disagree, as I feel the point is largely that a champion should be an asset to their team, so they probably should have dealt with his matchmaking issues in other ways, but ultimately QM is QM and you're going to get clown fiestas from time to time in one direction or the other, so it doesn't really change much in that regard. Straight up, I think the multiclass thing was a bad idea, as far as QM matchmaking goes at the very least. A cool concept that has a whole host of problems attached to it. You're absolutely correct that someone should be an asset to their team and not a detriment. I think as the Blizzard poster said, "the other team cannot opt out." At least Varian's teammates have ten levels to convince him to go tank. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't. But I can never, ever make a Lunara go tank no matter what I say or do. Zero times out of one hundred. You're completely right that they should have solved it in other ways. Probably before they ever launched Varian. This is not the ideal fix but 50 games out of 100 where Varian goes tank to meet a tank on the other team is better than the 100 games out of 100 where the other team has tank Varian and we have Lunara, etc.
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May 7, 2017 23:19
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Zaodai posted:Can you explain how you figure every League hero has the same kit? Because that isn't remotely true, even at a cursory glance. Look at DotA then. When I played LoL,when it had closer to 80-90 heroes, the pick variety in high level games was exceedingly narrow because there was 20~ heroes who were the best at what they did, so a few got banned and the rest got picked with a minor adjustment for personal preferences.
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May 7, 2017 23:24
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^^^^^^^ Tiers of strength are going to exist in any MOBA. It had nothing to do with the heroes having "the same kit", it's that some champions are stronger or weaker. There will always be optimal picks and counterpicks in a team based strategy game. Even HOTS has preferred heroes for certain maps. If you look at Solo queue, even high level Solo Queue, you get far more hero diversity than specific 5 man professional games. Mind over Matter posted:Straight up, I think the multiclass thing was a bad idea, as far as QM matchmaking goes at the very least. A cool concept that has a whole host of problems attached to it. You're absolutely correct that someone should be an asset to their team and not a detriment. I think as the Blizzard poster said, "the other team cannot opt out." At least Varian's teammates have ten levels to convince him to go tank. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't. But I can never, ever make a Lunara go tank no matter what I say or do. Zero times out of one hundred. Yeah, the core issue was definitely that they didn't plan well to start with. I'm not arguing against the change, I think it ends up being a wash either way. I just don't think it's really going to "fix" the issue, people will just be mad in the opposite direction. If they're really that worried about it, and you're not balancing for QM (because QM is the "you get what you get, gently caress balance" mode anyway), they could just disable him in QM altogether, but then they'd have to admit they made a mistake. I don't know that their really is a good fix, because the ideal solution would be to decide whether he is damage or tank before queueing, but then nothing would stop people from queueing as DPS and going tank and being right back where we were pre-change. Zaodai fucked around with this message at 23:28 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 23:26
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Basically forcing Varian to go tank is kind of a lovely fix as well. Best solution might be to nerf tank Varian.
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May 7, 2017 23:47
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Best solution is probably similar to what Zaodai said and forcing a lock in of their level 10 choice when they queue (for QM only) then matchmaking based off that. Not going to happen, but would be nice.
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May 7, 2017 23:59
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Simplest solution to me seemed like it would be to just have the player check warrior or assassin when they queue as Zaodai said and your level 10/20 talents are locked accordingly, but for all I know that would have been a loving mess to implement.
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May 7, 2017 23:59
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Tyrande is a bigger issue imo. She has a pretty good solo heal build that is wildly unfair to play against when you have no healer. Her QM win rate is 5-8% higher than in Hero League (depends on build but all are higher). And she still does reasonable damage!!
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May 8, 2017 00:05
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HelixFox posted:Tyrande is a bigger issue imo. She has a pretty good solo heal build that is wildly unfair to play against when you have no healer. Her QM win rate is 5-8% higher than in Hero League (depends on build but all are higher). And she still does reasonable damage!! Isn't she in the "lite healer" category now where she will almost always be matched against someone similar like Tassadar, Abathur, or Zarya? Not that that doesn't create issues in and of itself but I think they are trying there too at least.
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May 8, 2017 00:09
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Hanamura. Hana is D.Va's real name.quote:Mura (斑) is a Japanese word meaning "unevenness; irregularity; lack of uniformity; nonuniformity; inequality", and is a key concept in the Toyota Production System (TPS) as one of the three types of waste (muda, mura, muri). Waste reduction is an effective way to increase profitability. D.Va and Hanamura map both confirmed uneven.
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May 8, 2017 00:11
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BrianBoitano posted:Hanamura. Hana is D.Va's real name. When she says "Nerf this" it is not a taunt, but a desperate cry for help, a deep longing to be fair and equal in power to her opponents.
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May 8, 2017 00:16
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