|
Blind Pineapple posted:For LeBron to be the mainstream-accepted GOAT, he'll have to win 7 championships. 6 won't cut it, because people will resort to "But Jordan didn't lose in the finals." This one always makes me laugh. It's like somehow losing in the Finals is worse than not making the Finals to some people.
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 01:36 |
|
|
Zogo posted:LBJ can win fifteen rings and they can still say that line. Because those people are correct. Personally once lebron gets around nine rings or so then I'll be willing to debate whether or not he is better than MJ
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:03
|
|
|
Yes the obvious counter is the East was bad. Which is dumb itself but this argument is dumb so whatever.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:03
|
|
|
its too bad MJ won't have the chance to prove himself equal to robert horry
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:09
|
|
|
mdemone posted:Jordan was obviously a bit better in pure scoring, a jumpshooter and slasher where LeBron is a driver, if we have to put them in categories like that. Long-range shooting is about even (disclaimer: I did not look up the numbers before saying that and wouldn't be surprised to find out there's more difference than I think). Offensive output between the two is probably pretty similar if we fold in value assists as a measure of playmaking. LBJ has the advantage in overall scoring numbers and is also a superior 3P shooter. LBJ is a more versatile defender. mdemone posted:He's already the all-time leader in VoRP by a substantial margin... It's too bad VORP only goes back to 1974. If it went back all the way I believe Kareem/Wilt would still have LBJ dominated. Femur posted:Duncan is of Shaq's era, whom ascended after Jordan. Iverson was being groomed, but usurper, Kobe, progeny of Jordan, prevailed. Kobe was ended by the era of point guards that Iverson was meant to herald, but sterns white America was not ready then. It is to be seen if Lebron a start of something, or if he was just unique. Duncan won a title before Jordan was done playing and assists are slightly overvalued. Nemesis implies a major threat or something unconquerable and Curry only is because he's on the stacked team (highest ORtg in NBA/ABA history). LBJs nemesis is a ten foot tall Michael Jordan.* *nonexistent.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:19
|
|
|
Michael Jordan is the GOAT because he was on my favorite team when I was a child; weird that you guys would waste so much time arguing that indisputable fact
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:24
|
|
|
lebron's nemesis the game of basketball itself. he will be battling it, to dominate and master it, until his body can't
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:23
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:To me what defines "GOAT" is who if you could draft one single player again to be on a team, starting his career over from day one, who would give you the best odds of a ton of championships with only needing role players around him? Nobody wins titles surrounded only by role players. patonthebach posted:I am not sure if there is even an comparable in MLB because of pitching/hitting and how big of a team sport it is. Because a generational talent like Trout cant make the angels a good team. Maybe Ruth? or Ted Williams? Bonds would solve offense but still without a decent group of starting pitching its not championship bound. An extremely dominant pitcher has a bigger effect despite skipping whole games. Zogo fucked around with this message at 05:30 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:28
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:This one always makes me laugh. It's like somehow losing in the Finals is worse than not making the Finals to some people. The Anti-Tom Brady Defense.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:33
|
|
|
Zogo posted:Nobody wins titles surrounded only by role players. Wade only heat? Nowitizki lead Mavs? Brady lead teams that didnt have Moss? MJ's last ring when pippen wasnt that good anymore? LBJ almost did it alone when his guys were injured in 2015. And I am using a pretty loose defintion of role player. Someone that can be a good starter, but not neccesarily an all-star and not a top 25 player or so.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:37
|
|
|
Still would love to hear more repsonses to who you would draft for your team to give you the best chances to get to win a championship over his career. Do you think its LBJ,Shaq,Kareem,MJ, etc. Or wildcard and select Popovich
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:40
|
|
|
curried lamb of God posted:yes, but I don't know for sure that Jordan is the one behind the JNCO reboot but nothing else makes sense to me Papercut posted:The Eastern Conference was complete loving trash for at least 3 of those Finals appearances. It's not at all equivalent to Jordan's 2 3-peats. I mean there was always at least one decent team in the East besides whatever team LeBron was on (Pistons, Celtics, Magic, Pacers, etc.) until this year It's not like the 90s EC was the same as the modern WC, either. Top heavy but outside of, say, the last two years of Penny and Shaq (one of which Jordan wasn't around for), there were only one or two contending teams in the East each year the Bulls went to the finals (Pistons/Pacers/Magic/Knicks).
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:42
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Wade only heat? He had Shaq
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:49
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Wade only heat? Is this a loving joke lmfao.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:48
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Wade only heat? Alonzo Mourning, Shaq, Tyson Chandler, Pippen and Rodman aren't close to role players (even in a loose definition). Pippen was still dominant in the 1998 playoffs. patonthebach posted:Still would love to hear more repsonses to who you would draft for your team to give you the best chances to get to win a championship over his career. I would place Kareem into the 1947 NBA.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 05:55
|
|
|
big boi posted:He had Shaq and the refs.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 06:04
|
|
|
Lebron would be the most unstoppable since Wilt playing against 90's defenses. Hand checks would do nothing to him because he's stronger than you and he'd beat the slow rotations so badly that if you didn't double team him immediately it would almost always be a dunk. A few years with a short three point line would probably help him immensely too.patonthebach posted:Wade only heat? Duncan in 2003 is one of the best playoff runs ever. I'd draft Wilt, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Jordan in that order I think. Height is important. Bashez fucked around with this message at 06:12 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 06:09
|
|
|
big boi posted:He had Shaq He had "Shaq".
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 06:15
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Brady lead teams that didnt have Moss?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 06:19
|
|
|
It's amazing people still talk about the "hand-check era" as if it were a thing that mattered. Especially when that ignores the elephant in the room of removing illegal defense. In fact you can argue removing illegal defense was arguably the greatest fundamental change to NBA basketball of the past several decades and almost everything about the current modern NBA is a developed response to that one change. NBA superstars used to playing in today's defensive climate would go to the rim laughing maniacally if they were able to play in the illegal defense era.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
Conversations like this are really silly. The quality of competition in almost every sport has unquestionably improved over the years, but that does not mean that a great athlete of years past would be only mediocre today, because athletes are shaped by their competition. Even something like running which you might naively expect to be dominated by human biomechanical limits sees consistent progress. For tens of thousands of years (probably), no human had ever run a four-minute mile, and then someone did, and a few decades later it was something that basically every elite male runner could do. Michael Jordan was a superb athlete who was driven by deep personal fires to be the greatest basketball player of his era. If he were coming up today, he would almost certainly rise to the challenge and be one of the greatest basketball players of this era, too. LeBron James is unquestionably the greatest basketball player of this era, but in twenty years there will be someone else, and we will look back at games from this era and be like goddamn all those teams were sloppy, so many wasted possessions, and can you believe it was possible to be an NBA player and not even shoot 80% at the line?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 07:29
|
|
|
The Future of the NBA is going to be 7 footers who are dribbling like loving Kyrie. And it's gonna be amazing. He's coming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICnWrtaHZes Dexo fucked around with this message at 07:37 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 07:32
|
|
|
Dexo posted:The Future of the NBA is going to be 7 footers who are dribbling like loving Kyrie. With 45-year old Lebron dragging veteran ring chasers like Giannis, Davis, and KAT to the Finals against cyborg Durant, who is still looking for his first ring. Super Jay Mann fucked around with this message at 07:40 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 07:37
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:With 45-year old Lebron dragging veteran ring chasers like Giannis, Davis, and KAT to the Finals against cyborg Durant, still looking for his first ring. lol if you dont think KD is chilling on that LBJ bench
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 07:37
|
|
|
Lmao If Lebron plays until Vince Carter's age He's going to be playing basketball against his son.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 07:41
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:It's amazing people still talk about the "hand-check era" as if it were a thing that mattered. Especially when that ignores the elephant in the room of removing illegal defense. Illegal defense was rarely called more than once per team per game (so only a warning) and teams have literally always played zone.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 08:44
|
|
|
Lebron took that 2007 cavs team to the finals basically by himself which makes him the best ever by default even though they got stomped by the spurs.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 10:31
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:and the refs. Udonis Haslem and Alonzo Mourning and james posey were a really strong defense, and Udonis made literally every single short midrange jumper, and so did wade. Udonis had 7 win shares that year. But they never would have gotten to the finals had the NBA not gotten tired of the Pistons and fixed a game, like they did with Lebron. Wade could draw a foul on a stationary defensive player by barreling into him. But the team was pretty well constructed. They had a few bigs who shot jumpers, they had Shaq for spurts of offense, they had old Gary Payton. But their entrance to the finals was illegitimate. The Lebron team that made the finals had much worse players by an order of magnitude Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 10:45 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 10:43
|
|
|
Rick posted:Illegal defense was rarely called more than once per team per game (so only a warning) and teams have literally always played zone. Illegal defense was rarely called because teams generally avoided zones. What happens in modern defense is less zones and more shading that makes it a lot harder for iso players to be effective. If you watch an 80s or 90s game vs a modern game, the defense is night and day. Dejan Bimble posted:Udonis Haslem and Alonzo Mourning and james posey were a really strong defense, and Udonis made literally every single short midrange jumper, and so did wade. Udonis had 7 win shares that year. They had some other relatively productive players like Jason Williams and Antoine Walker. The 2006 heat was a pretty good team all around.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 10:50
|
|
|
If you gave Jordan modern nutriotion, training, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches instead of having him smoke cigars and gamble all night past his bedtime he would've won 10 championships
|
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 11:01
|
|
|
Also if the Monstars didn't try to steal his energy in 1996
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 11:29
|
|
|
Rick posted:Illegal defense was rarely called more than once per team per game (so only a warning) and teams have literally always played zone. Not in any reasonable sense of the term "zone". This was the reality of pre 2002 basketball, everybody on the weak side, no two-nining, no digging, no shading towards the post. Look at Malone: he has to guard Rodman at the perimeter. No zone in the least. #3 was allowed to come off his man, but he had to stay on the weak side and above the FT line.  And what happens if a defender shaded towards the basket, like the guy in the middle here just under the FT line? The whistle got blown, as it did just after this screen shot. 
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 12:10
|
|
man
|
Dennis rodman would have to play center in todays league. And pippen would probably play a lot of 4.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 12:12
|
|
|
Is there a lot of Wilt footage out there? Maybe I am extrapolating a lot but I cant imagine him being fast enough for todays NBA
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 12:54
|
|
|
Edit: Forget it.
RCarr fucked around with this message at 13:20 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 13:17
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Is there a lot of Wilt footage out there? Maybe I am extrapolating a lot but I cant imagine him being fast enough for todays NBA Dead wrong
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 13:23
|
|
|
Wilt Chamberlain stories are basically American Tall Tales, except they're all true. Edit: he basically can't get included in statistical discussions because he would skew everything by an order of magnitude. Almost every record in the NBA has a Wilt-Shaped asterisk on it. EvanTH fucked around with this message at 13:32 on May 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 13:26
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Is there a lot of Wilt footage out there? Maybe I am extrapolating a lot but I cant imagine him being fast enough for todays NBA http://www.youtube.com/user/dantheman9758/videos
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 13:40
|
|
|
patonthebach posted:Is there a lot of Wilt footage out there? Maybe I am extrapolating a lot but I cant imagine him being fast enough for todays NBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY Wilt was like Bill Brasky, but real.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 13:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 01:36 |
|
|
Dexo posted:The Future of the NBA is going to be 7 footers who are dribbling like loving Kyrie. I hope, with every fiber of my being, that he has his dad's 3 point shooting form.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2017 13:58
|
|
