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Artum posted:Banshees being the hard counter to their own supposed hard counters isn't a mastery issue its bad balance. At the 4 minute mark you get 4 squads of banshees research quick strike and run them in stealth with striking scorpions, whenever you see something you run up to them then mass charge and instagib the unit, then either kill literally every other unit there or if you start taking too much fire you retreat with zero losses because of battle focus. Either you win through wiping out the other side or you win through attrition. Heavy weapon teams don't stop them because they can just kill those with the opening move, flamers and other abilities don't stop them because the banshee scream is always doctrined for silence so its immediately canceled, gabriel can almost work with retribution but thats 8 minutes in and if they're not a complete idiot they just angle their charge to also hit him and take off 60% of his health in one shot. Banshees can be countered fairly easily by detection, high ground, and stuns, though I agree Striking Scorpions are overperforming right now. If you get to quick strike people with four squads as a surprise, then yes you're going to win the fight - but if your opponent hits you with ASM Assault Leaps the reverse is true. Detection, visibility not blobbing, etc. are very important in this game - I really enjoy killing Scorpions as they make a futile attempt to stealth away, having brought a detector to the fight and hidden it in the smoke. Now, Scorpions can themselves use their Hunt ability to spot the location of enemy units, but not actually detect them - at which point it becomes more of a game of cat and mouse and less "blob vs. blob, who gets off their AoEs first".
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May 7, 2017 18:23
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In 2-3 weeks, while better than the 2-3 months it used to be due to GFWL verification bullshit its still a while. God knows tactical marines are just going to be too powerful once buffed anyway. Relics always taken an extremely long time to get anything approaching a decent balance in their games.
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May 7, 2017 18:24
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Fetterkey posted:Now, Scorpions can themselves use their Hunt ability to spot the location of enemy units, but not actually detect them - at which point it becomes more of a game of cat and mouse and less "blob vs. blob, who gets off their AoEs first". Detection is 90% knowing they're there in the first place, once you're looking for it the shimmer is easy enough to see.
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May 7, 2017 18:28
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Artum posted:Banshees being the hard counter to their own supposed hard counters isn't a mastery issue its bad balance. At the 4 minute mark you get 4 squads of banshees research quick strike and run them in stealth with striking scorpions, whenever you see something you run up to them then mass charge and instagib the unit, then either kill literally every other unit there or if you start taking too much fire you retreat with zero losses because of battle focus. Either you win through wiping out the other side or you win through attrition. Heavy weapon teams don't stop them because they can just kill those with the opening move, flamers and other abilities don't stop them because the banshee scream is always doctrined for silence so its immediately canceled, gabriel can almost work with retribution but thats 8 minutes in and if they're not a complete idiot they just angle their charge to also hit him and take off 60% of his health in one shot. *crosses out "meta is lovely" and writes "banshees are OP" underneath*
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May 7, 2017 18:29
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Comrayn posted:*crosses out "meta is lovely" and writes "banshees are OP" underneath* Two of the three races' go-to strategy is "spam the t1 melee unit because it beats literally everything" thats a poor state to be in. Yes they can be countered with an enormous amount of effort but you aren't meant to require an enormous amount of effort to deal with someone attack moving while they spam one unit.
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May 7, 2017 19:04
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I bought DOW 3 as a birthday present to myself. Tried a few campaign missions and the tutorial. Firts impression is good, great soundtrack, flashy graphics and the gameplay remind me a bit of cnc generals. However, there is a few things I didnt quite get; First, i had a dreadnaught in the spacemarine mission, but that thing did not attack units when i ordered it too. It auto attacked a bit here and there, but only if the enemy was within melee range. Is this a bug? (I doubt they simulated dreadnaughts getting senile i this game ) Second; is there unit experience in this game? (aside from elites and heroes) I saw some arrows beside certain units health bars, but i couldn't find any indicator of unit xp.
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May 7, 2017 19:36
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GyverMac posted:I bought DOW 3 as a birthday present to myself. Tried a few campaign missions and the tutorial. Firts impression is good, great soundtrack, flashy graphics and the gameplay remind me a bit of cnc generals. However, there is a few things I didnt quite get; First, i had a dreadnaught in the spacemarine mission, but that thing did not attack units when i ordered it too. It auto attacked a bit here and there, but only if the enemy was within melee range. Is this a bug? (I doubt they simulated dreadnaughts getting senile i this game ) Theres no in game experience or veterancy for units, the icons above a unit are generally buffs/debuffs and if you move order something rather than attack moving the unit wont attack things on the way, and in a dreadnoughts case if it hasnt reached its ordered position for one reason or another its not going to be hitting things on the way.
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May 7, 2017 21:07
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Also it just seems like units sometimes are fuckin stupid and stand there with 3 squads of not-snipers unloading on them and need some encouragement to shoot back.
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May 7, 2017 21:13
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Just a reminder, tomorrow isn't a balance patch.quote:On Monday, we’ll get the ball rolling with our first patch. This will address some of the bugs and issues you’ve flagged with us (so long, invisible Bonesinger!) but will also include the addition of a Surrender option in Multiplayer
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May 7, 2017 21:18
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Wonder if they've figured out how some people were double spawning elites.
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May 7, 2017 21:26
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Zaodai posted:It probably wouldn't do much for making Tacs not be poo poo, though? Bringing tacs up to ASM levels is just compouding the problem. It's much better to bring the outliers that are too strong down than to buff everything up until it's also absurd. Not that tacs don't need a buff, but they need a buff less than ASMs need a nerf. In an ideal world both happen. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 21:27 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 21:25
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DatonKallandor posted:Bringing tacs up to ASM levels is just compouding the problem. It's much better to bring the outliers that are too strong down than to buff everything up until it's also absurd. Okay, but the problem isn't Tacs are too weak compared to ASM, but that Tacs are too weak compared to the other factions equivalent units. So if you think ASM should be nerfed on their own, that's fine, but nerfing the good unit of one faction to try and get them to use the bad unit is just going to make the faction itself garbage.
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May 7, 2017 21:27
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DatonKallandor posted:Bringing tacs up to ASM levels is just compouding the problem. It's much better to bring the outliers that are too strong down than to buff everything up until it's also absurd. Not that tacs don't need a buff, but they need a buff less than ASMs need a nerf. In an ideal world both happen. I agree, let's make space Marines unplayable by not having any good T1 units.
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May 7, 2017 21:30
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DatonKallandor posted:Bringing tacs up to ASM levels is just compouding the problem. It's much better to bring the outliers that are too strong down than to buff everything up until it's also absurd. Not that tacs don't need a buff, but they need a buff less than ASMs need a nerf. In an ideal world both happen. It'd be nice if they gave tacs their old gimmick of beating every other ranged unit in melee back.
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May 7, 2017 21:34
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If they gave that, the fire on the move doctrine might actually have some use.
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May 7, 2017 21:39
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Okay, let's not make any sweeping statements like Tacs are worse than their other race equivalents. They're not worse than shootas. They lose out to Dire Avengers because everything does (thanks to boring Eldar doctrines like "have better avengers" and "have better avenger grenade"). And even if you took away the ASMs power sword upgrade entirely, they'd still be a good unit. They'd still be the only jump line infantry, with extremely solid doctrine options. They'd just be worse than Banshees because again, Banshees just have far too many straightforward extremely good doctrines and a very abusable elite synergy. And yes, the "our ranged unit beats your ranged unit in melee" was a good gimmick that they should bring back.
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May 7, 2017 21:38
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Artum posted:Theres no in game experience or veterancy for units, the icons above a unit are generally buffs/debuffs and if you move order something rather than attack moving the unit wont attack things on the way, and in a dreadnoughts case if it hasnt reached its ordered position for one reason or another its not going to be hitting things on the way. Yeah, problem was that the dreadnaught didnt respond to attack orders at all. Only move orders. Hm. It was in the campaign so maybe a bug.
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May 7, 2017 21:43
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Who was even making a sweeping statement like that?
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May 7, 2017 21:45
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DatonKallandor posted:Okay, let's not make any sweeping statements like Tacs are worse than their other race equivalents. They're not worse than shootas. They lose out to Dire Avengers because everything does (thanks to boring Eldar doctrines like "have better avengers" and "have better avenger grenade"). And even if you took away the ASMs power sword upgrade entirely, they'd still be a good unit. They'd still be the only jump line infantry, with extremely solid doctrine options. They'd just be worse than Banshees because again, Banshees just have far too many straightforward extremely good doctrines and a very abusable elite synergy. Shootas actually murk tacs pretty handily in a shootout while cheaper, tacs only win if you're pulling a flamer on them.
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May 7, 2017 21:55
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Third World Reggin posted:Just a reminder, tomorrow isn't a balance patch. To be fair, if they fix the bug with a 10 second cooldown or whatever on the Webway Portal t1 teleport doctrine, it basically will be a balance patch.
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May 7, 2017 23:02
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Yes, the point being that tacs can scale in ways shootas can't. You trade a weaker starting point for a much better end point. The reinforce cost increase makes it a drain if you go hard on it, which sucks, but plasma or flamer tacs are still miles above where shootas with loot end up.GyverMac posted:Yeah, problem was that the dreadnaught didnt respond to attack orders at all. Only move orders. Hm. It was in the campaign so maybe a bug. There's a hold fire toggle, did you hit that accidentally? On that note, how many in here are playing with default keybinds? DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 23:02 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 23:00
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Third World Reggin posted:So went through the codex and found something a little off. DatonKallandor posted:Okay, let's not make any sweeping statements like Tacs are worse than their other race equivalents. They're not worse than shootas. They lose out to Dire Avengers because everything does (thanks to boring Eldar doctrines like "have better avengers" and "have better avenger grenade"). And even if you took away the ASMs power sword upgrade entirely, they'd still be a good unit. They'd still be the only jump line infantry, with extremely solid doctrine options. They'd just be worse than Banshees because again, Banshees just have far too many straightforward extremely good doctrines and a very abusable elite synergy. Ignoring damage falloff as members die, and just comparing raw damage vs health pool numbers, shootas vs tacs are about equal in ttk when shooting each other but in melee the tacs kill twice as fast; looks like the gimmick is already in. 1400 tac health at 44 ranged shoota dps = 32s death 840 shoota health at 28 ranged tac dps = 30s death 1400 tac health at 16 melee dps = 87s 840 shoota health at 18 melee dps = 46s Guardian vs tac ranged ttk vs melee ttk shakes out about the same with similar shooting but tacs being twice as good for melee. (That's all ignoring doctrines and grenades and poo poo obv)
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May 7, 2017 23:16
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Yeah no friendly fire massively skews any slow-ttk melee into the grenade-havers favor.
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May 7, 2017 23:18
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So if a tac squad runs up to a guardian squad the guardian squad will lose raw numbers vs numbers unless the Eldar player took the better shields doctrine then the guardians win unless the tacs run in to melee where they'll win unless the guardians get a good nade off then they'll win unless the Marine player took the grenade doctrine and throw their own then they'll win unless the Eldar player jukes the nade but then what if the Marine player also juked the Eldar nade. Or something
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May 7, 2017 23:29
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lol that image was to show you that the prices are listed at a per unit model but I forgot to show you how nothing else in the codex is. The dps numbers are full squads. It is weird that everything is done as a whole unit except that one number. But hell I talked about that after the image. It is weird to do a 1v1 comparison of units instead of what you could bring in the first and second fight, like 3-8 minutes. Also as you lose guys in a unit, you lose dps.
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May 7, 2017 23:37
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Artum posted:Wonder if they've figured out how some people were double spawning elites. Wait, this is a thing? I lost a game against what felt like 6 enemy knights with identical paint schemes the other day but I forgot to check the enemy elite loadouts so I assumed they just went super lategame on us.
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May 8, 2017 11:54
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Kanos posted:Wait, this is a thing? I lost a game against what felt like 6 enemy knights with identical paint schemes the other day but I forgot to check the enemy elite loadouts so I assumed they just went super lategame on us. I've not run into anything so extreme but I've seen one player with two Gabriels and heard of people seeing the same.
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May 8, 2017 12:02
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I unlocked the army doctrine for Wraithlord Webway Gates, and setting it as your army doctrine puts the warp time at 5 seconds, and cooldown for next warp at 50 seconds, as opposed to the standard 10 on warp and 90 on cooldown. So yeah, definitely bugs out under the Wraithlord's command. With him as an Elite, it's a 1 second warp time and 10 second cooldown.
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May 8, 2017 13:27
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DatonKallandor posted:Yes, the point being that tacs can scale in ways shootas can't. You trade a weaker starting point for a much better end point. The reinforce cost increase makes it a drain if you go hard on it, which sucks, but plasma or flamer tacs are still miles above where shootas with loot end up. Are there ways to play without default keybinds? It doesn't look like there's a menu option to change them.
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May 8, 2017 13:48
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You can use Autohotkey to do it. It doesn't change the in-game keys on the buttons, but everythings is better than their default arrow-key camera.
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May 8, 2017 14:13
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DatonKallandor posted:You can use Autohotkey to do it. It doesn't change the in-game keys on the buttons, but everythings is better than their default arrow-key camera. If you hold alt, it makes WASD your camera arrows. That, combined with middle mouse button to move the camera, hasn't really left me desiring an alternate control scheme.
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May 8, 2017 15:19
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a harpy posted:If you hold alt, it makes WASD your camera arrows. That, combined with middle mouse button to move the camera, hasn't really left me desiring an alternate control scheme. gently caress THATS why the controls kept not working when I tabbed in and out.
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May 8, 2017 15:22
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This game looks kinda neat, though I'm certainly not jumping in until/unless balance and bugs get addressed. My question is whether or not I could stand to play DoW3 considering that I quit Starcraft 2 because I couldn't muster enough multitasking APM to play reasonably. This looks like an awful lot of multitasking micro when I had trouble with even DoW2 1v1s.
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May 8, 2017 19:03
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Corbeau posted:This game looks kinda neat, though I'm certainly not jumping in until/unless balance and bugs get addressed. My question is whether or not I could stand to play DoW3 considering that I quit Starcraft 2 because I couldn't muster enough multitasking APM to play reasonably. This looks like an awful lot of multitasking micro when I had trouble with even DoW2 1v1s. That's kind of the nature of the beast with rts. There is a lot of micro with your army but not so much splitting your attention managing an economy pumping out workers and expanding. If the economy/macro of Starcraft is what put you off it might be okay.
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May 8, 2017 19:11
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Splitting attention is the real killer for me. I grew up on real time tactical games, but they were tactical games where you kept your army together rather than spread out over a whole map (specifically the Myth series).
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May 8, 2017 19:19
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I'll point out I absolutely hate all the economy and base macro in Starcraft because all I want to do is control my army effectively. And in DoW3 I'm pretty much just exclusively microing armies instead of messing with how I'm going to be making enough money and dudes for the next wave. There are a few things wish you could automate though like reinforcing squads and possibly the ability to just leave a production building to constantly build 1 thing if I have enough money (Like how you could 'overwatch' a unit in the first game and it would auto build them if you had the money).
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May 8, 2017 19:31
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DarkAvenger211 posted:There are a few things wish you could automate though like reinforcing squads and possibly the ability to just leave a production building to constantly build 1 thing if I have enough money (Like how you could 'overwatch' a unit in the first game and it would auto build them if you had the money). DoW2 had that feature too, and I genuinely don't know why they removed it.
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May 8, 2017 19:33
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They've had that since DoW 1 and improved upon it in every game since (excpept maybe CoH 2 I didn't play that) - it's baffling how it's not in DoW 3.
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May 8, 2017 19:37
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Is this a good game? Loved DOW1, was my favorite RTS of all time. DOW2 was okay but it never grabbed me the same way.
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May 8, 2017 19:44
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Azuren posted:Is this a good game? Loved DOW1, was my favorite RTS of all time. DOW2 was okay but it never grabbed me the same way. That is a very subjective question. Some people really enjoy it, some people think it is somehow the worst game ever made and an insult to everything that lives. I loved DoW1, didn't enjoy DoW2 as much, and am really enjoying 3. It definitely has flaws, but I still enjoy it.
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May 8, 2017 20:11
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