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teach groovy instead of java. much more forgiving and easy to dive into and you can always let java things creep in later and let it compile and run all the same.
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May 8, 2017 20:45
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St Evan Echoes posted:just use c# interactive for your first few lessons and then progress to writing c# classes and use c# until you die does anybody use c# interactive? f# folks have been running scripts and encouraging people to make heavy use of the repl since the dawn of time, but when c# got scripts and a repl of its own i got the distinct impression that the millions of c# users collectively failed to give a single poo poo is it just a case of "b-b-b-ut how do you expect me to properly do Single Responsibility Test-Driven Allman-Braced Agile Injection of Control in a script?!" NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 20:51 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 20:48
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repls aren't useful for real development.
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May 8, 2017 20:49
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NihilCredo posted:does anybody use c# interactive? f# folks have been running scripts and encouraging people to make heavy use of the repl since the dawn of time, but when c# got scripts and a repl of its own i got the distinct impression that the millions of c# users collectively failed to give a single poo poo i know one person who uses the c# repl and i dont know why
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May 8, 2017 20:50
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Shaggar posted:repls aren't useful for real development. they're not. they're very useful for everything that comes before and after.
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May 8, 2017 20:56
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My GS runs out of memory trying to run the C compiler, linker, and editor at once apparently I need one of those 4MB RAM expansion cards now Or I could just write assembly forever
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May 8, 2017 21:01
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my first "actually taught in a programming course" language was logo, and im not gonna fight about it or anything but for kids you could do a lot worse
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May 8, 2017 21:03
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"first language" doesnt matter imvho. my "first" language was either clisp, logo, qbasic, lego mindstorms graphical programming blocks thing, starcraft custom maps scripting language, or java. starcraft customs map scripting language was probably the most successful in terms interest garnered and desire to learn more generated but each language played its own significant role in turning me into a computer toucher
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May 8, 2017 21:07
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JawnV6 posted:*hand-on-chest staggering backwards* j..just giving them pre-doped silicon??
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May 8, 2017 21:17
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JawnV6 posted:*hand-on-chest staggering backwards* j..just giving them pre-doped silicon?? i keep reading this as "shaggaring backwards"
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May 8, 2017 21:29
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Bloody posted:i keep reading this as "shaggaring backwards" 
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May 8, 2017 21:33
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Shaggar posted:repls aren't useful for real development. idk. they don't seem to be useful for actual development in the way repl evangelists claim but I occasionally use jython or beanshell to figure out how to use some poorly documented java library by trial and error, and it's useful enough that I'm looking forward to getting a real java repl in jdk9
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May 8, 2017 22:05
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friends don't let friends use dynamic languages logo was my first language and i still wouldn't recommend it over java. basic almost made me never program again also, am i crazy, or is there no good reason to allow cycles in a dependency system. a bunch of what i'm assuming are node.jsers are saying java 9's jigsaw needs cyclic dependencies or else library A, which library B depends on, can't depend on library B for one function and that'd be a travesty
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May 8, 2017 22:38
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poemdexter posted:teach groovy instead of java. much more forgiving and easy to dive into and you can always let java things creep in later and let it compile and run all the same. code:
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May 8, 2017 22:49
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Condiv posted:also, am i crazy, or is there no good reason to allow cycles in a dependency system. a bunch of what i'm assuming are node.jsers are saying java 9's jigsaw needs cyclic dependencies or else library A, which library B depends on, can't depend on library B for one function and that'd be a travesty you are not crazy. if module a and module b appear to depend on each other then either:
there is no third option
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May 8, 2017 22:49
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Doom Mathematic posted:
optional parens are an abomination in the eyes of god.
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May 8, 2017 22:58
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Soricidus posted:you are not crazy. if module a and module b appear to depend on each other then either: I agree entirely, but now manage this constraint in an environment where anybody can create a module depending on any other module.
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May 8, 2017 23:12
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I found a snackoverflow page asking about writing a 68K operating system for learning about OS theory and someone suggested making a homemade Amiga boot ROM since all the hardware is documented and WinUAE exists
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May 8, 2017 23:16
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I use the python repl as a desktop calculator I feel like i should be using dc instead but ehhh
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May 8, 2017 23:22
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this node service which is extremely tightly coupled with mongodb and heavily reliant on mongoose is having performance problems again gently caress mEeEeE
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May 8, 2017 23:28
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Sapozhnik posted:I use the python repl as a desktop calculator same but matlab
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May 8, 2017 23:29
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JawnV6 posted:my first college programming assignment was w/ Karel the Robot, a C framework that spun up a little GUI with a robot that walked around and put down tiles on a grid Sup buddy, Karel was awesome. carry on then posted:surprise surprise, most practicing programmers look back fondly on their first language and will die on any hill to defend it as the one true choice of teaching languages My first languages (not counting Karel) were Java and C in parallel... I think neither should be used to start teaching people. Python on the other hand is p. okay  (full disclosure, I recently worked with Python on non-trivial projects for half a year and wanted to kill myself by the end)In general I think that introduction to programming shouldn't teach people job skill (which seems to be the reason my university teaches Java in intro to programming class  ) but to make people think programatically and be able to, at least roughly, split their problem into subproblems, that are easier to solve in separation. This means that the most valuable property of language is unobtrusive and intuitive syntax.
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May 8, 2017 23:40
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I use Python as a desk calculator and unit converter
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May 8, 2017 23:42
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Doom Mathematic posted:I agree entirely, but now manage this constraint in an environment where anybody can create a module depending on any other module. that isn't the environment we're talking about though. jigsaw doesn't let anyone create a module depending on any other module - it rejects modules whose dependency graphs contain a cycle.
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May 8, 2017 23:46
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Arcsech posted:this node service which is extremely tightly coupled with mongodb and heavily reliant on mongoose is having performance problems i got 99 problems and loving mongoose is all of them
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May 8, 2017 23:49
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matlab is probably the best choice for an intro to programming course at the high school or college level. its broadly applicable to domains other than just computer science, they're likely to encounter it later, its quick to do interesting results-oriented things with, the syntax is pretty lightweight
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May 8, 2017 23:49
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Jigsaw is probably going to take two years or so to be fully assimilated by the java community but once maven works great in tandem with it it's gonna own
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May 8, 2017 23:49
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My point was that throwing people to the wild in programming is bad regardless of the langauge. Try explaining __exec__ in python in a high school class
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May 8, 2017 23:52
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tbf its simplest in embedded. you put your first instruction at 0x0200 because the reset value of the program counter is 0x0200 why is it 0x0200? well, it had to be something, so it's that
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May 8, 2017 23:56
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Soricidus posted:that isn't the environment we're talking about though. jigsaw doesn't let anyone create a module depending on any other module - it rejects modules whose dependency graphs contain a cycle. If your module A needs to use B, but for some reason B depends on C depends on D depends on E depends on A already, how do you use B? Assume that the maintainers of B, C, D and E are uncooperative.
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May 9, 2017 00:25
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Bloody posted:i suppose i could also just do it in haskell but feh but you've already done the Haskell by the way here's a 6502 in Haskell that generates hardware with Clash
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May 9, 2017 00:36
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eschaton posted:but you've already done the Haskell quote:rather something to wet the appetite of the roughly 12 people or so interested in both functional languages and FPGA's. it me
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May 9, 2017 00:37
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Shaggar posted:repls aren't useful for real development. this but the opposite either you're going to use a real REPL or you're going to use your debugger as a limited REPL obligatory video showing the best REPL ever created
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May 9, 2017 00:46
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Luigi Thirty posted:My GS runs out of memory trying to run the C compiler, linker, and editor at once they make 8M cards get one of those
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May 9, 2017 00:47
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Doom Mathematic posted:If your module A needs to use B, but for some reason B depends on C depends on D depends on E depends on A already, how do you use B? Assume that the maintainers of B, C, D and E are uncooperative. if your module is that deep in people's dependency graph for valid reasons you shouldn't be adding new nontrivial dependencies Or, the new functionality that depends on B should be a new module separate from A Illusive Fuck Man fucked around with this message at 00:50 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 00:47
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Bloody posted:it me this was the biggest endorsement to me: quote:The one thing that never failed to work, was that when Clash generated hardware, it always behaved the same as the Haskell implementation. Initially I would generate and verify on the FPGA all the time, but since it always just worked I'd do it less and less frequently, relying on testing on the Haskell implementation. if it could generate, what generated would both synthesize and act the same
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May 9, 2017 00:51
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eschaton posted:they make 8M cards get one of those I'm on a budget here those are 100 dollars I ordered a 4M one for 50 dollars
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May 9, 2017 00:59
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tdd and repls have a lot of overlap in their usefulness imo, both as reminders not to write big globs of code code that's testable or usable in a repl is always better quality than code that isn't
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May 9, 2017 01:08
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NihilCredo posted:does anybody use c# interactive? i do all the time, but i seem to be in the minority. it's super useful for all the stuff repls have always been good at (quickly validating assumptions, exploring apis, whatever). also i think go would be a good teaching language for all the same reasons it's kind of annoying in real life. it's simple to a fault.
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May 9, 2017 01:28
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Bloody posted:matlab is probably the best choice for an intro to programming course at the high school or college level. its broadly applicable to domains other than just computer science, they're likely to encounter it later, its quick to do interesting results-oriented things with, the syntax is pretty lightweight i'm reporting you to the hague
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