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endlessmonotony posted:You have trouble getting a job that'll cover your unavoidable expenses if you're an extremely normal Finnish dude with a respected education right now, and the economy has been kinda lovely like that since the 90's. The refugees don't ever get work because prejudice and the lovely job situation combine toward any possible position having lighter-skinned applicants in the line before them. Keskusta and Kokoomus both like the trampling of workers' rights so they don't dare demand adequate pay, so that adds to the problem. Thank you
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May 8, 2017 20:47
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So they don't integrate well ?
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May 8, 2017 21:09
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:OTOH, pissflaps. Pissflaps is a completely different sort of troll.
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May 8, 2017 21:12
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Reminder: Tomorrow the first ESC semi final takes place in the Ukraine. Russia is this year boycotting the event because of the Crimea conflict.
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May 8, 2017 21:18
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I don't think Russia is boycotting, their entry is not allowed to enter Ukraine because she has performed for Russian troops in Crimea.
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May 8, 2017 21:29
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unpacked robinhood posted:So they don't integrate well ? This thread has been through this discussion a thousand times already and most people probably don't want it to start up again because a) it turns this thread into an unreadable shitshow for at least a week b) it attracts ultra creepy freaks like ligur and c) ultimately doesn't really matter since refugees are taken in for humanitarian reasons, not economic ones.
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May 8, 2017 21:35
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Randarkman posted:I don't think Russia is boycotting, their entry is not allowed to enter Ukraine because she has performed for Russian troops in Crimea. Which they probably did to taunt Ukraine knowing fully well it could lead to their entry being ousted. She's in wheelchair too. C'mon Russia, can you be even more obvious about this poo poo you pulled off here?
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May 8, 2017 21:36
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endlessmonotony posted:You have trouble getting a job that'll cover your unavoidable expenses if you're an extremely normal Finnish dude with a respected education right now, and the economy has been kinda lovely like that since the 90's. The refugees don't ever get work because prejudice and the lovely job situation combine toward any possible position having lighter-skinned applicants in the line before them. Keskusta and Kokoomus both like the trampling of workers' rights so they don't dare demand adequate pay, so that adds to the problem.
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May 8, 2017 21:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This doesn't really counter the claim that refugees aren't a boon to the economy, and thus taking them in not being a "10 year investment". Like Raspberry Jam says, the justification is (going to have to be) humanitarian, not economic, in an economy that has a hard enough time creating jobs for the people already living in a country. We don't have a hard time generating jobs, because the only reason the economy is like it is is because of AUSTERITY. There's a lot of work to be done, but the government is loving with the economy in order to suppress the cost of labor.
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May 8, 2017 21:45
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GaussianCopula posted:Reminder: Tomorrow the first ESC semi final takes place in the Ukraine. Russia got banned you loving moron
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May 8, 2017 21:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This doesn't really counter the claim that refugees aren't a boon to the economy, and thus taking them in not being a "10 year investment". Like Raspberry Jam says, the justification is (going to have to be) humanitarian, not economic, in an economy that has a hard enough time creating jobs for the people already living in a country. And to add to that - Finland's left was saying that with proper integration support the influx of immigrants would help with the labor shortage we have. They didn't receive proper integration support, they received a whole lot of racism. Meanwhile the Finnish government's actions are actually causing the labor shortage to be more or less unnoticeable through their extremely rear end-backwards handling of the economy, mostly by privatizing a whole lot of poo poo you shouldn't privatize, the most important component of which is apartments. As long as Finnish people aren't willing to work for the median wage in Romania, they won't be happy, and meanwhile the cost of living is through the roof because of Finland's location, resources and the fact that the rents are at roughly the max you can get from someone with an average wage, which means that the people in lower-earning jobs - the ones we have a labor shortage for, well that and programmers - literally cannot justify taking one of those jobs because the transportation and living costs would make it impossible to live on that wage. They're substantially subsidized by the government as it is through rent support, and it still doesn't work. The government would save massive amounts of money building and renting apartments at cost where the jobs are, and by taking an active part in food distribution as opposed to subsidizing farmers and having their produce rot because nobody's buying because the government food acquisition doesn't consider costs to other parts of the government. We'd have enough work for everyone here now, and hundreds of thousands of people beyond that. But no, PRIVATIZE IN THE NAME OF AUSTERITY CITIZEN. EDIT: And that's not even touching on the clusterfuck where the government apparently thinks they can offload infrastructure management to not-otherwise-funded private entities so they can fix the roads for... charity? I never really understood their argument. (Mostly because it isn't an economic one, it's "the private sector is more efficient" taken to magic.) endlessmonotony fucked around with this message at 22:24 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 22:20
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TheRat posted:Russia got banned you loving moron No. The Russian singer, who is banned from entering the Ukraine according to Ukraine law because she entered the Krim without crossing Ukraine territory was offered to perform in Moscow instead to participate in ESC. Russia decided that they would not accept this offer, for obvious propaganda reasons and are therefore boycotting the contest, which will not be televised in Russia this year.
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May 8, 2017 22:23
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endlessmonotony posted:You have trouble getting a job that'll cover your unavoidable expenses if you're an extremely normal Finnish dude with a respected education right now, and the economy has been kinda lovely like that since the 90's. The refugees don't ever get work because prejudice and the lovely job situation combine toward any possible position having lighter-skinned applicants in the line before them. Keskusta and Kokoomus both like the trampling of workers' rights so they don't dare demand adequate pay, so that adds to the problem. - Sweden conducted a large study a few years which shows is that your job qualifications and skillset actually matter getting a job, not ethnicity, not religion, not country of birth, not gender. And they have some experience with this. - At the same time for example UK, Finland, Sweden and other countries have minorities whose employment numbers are close to or even better than natives. West-Africans seem to do well everywhere from what I've seen, Indians (Sikhs in UK) and groups like Bangladeshi, Kenyans, Indians and thus forth are just fine in Finland. This seems to contradict the myth that skin colour or ethnicity or surname is behind success in employment in North/West Europe, does it not? quote:Meanwhile their kids get pushed around in school to chants of "friend of the family" while, if they by some miracle can emotionally handle that enough to graduate, they face the same goddamn job situation. Really? It is well known education is key but there is really very little evidence (aside from statements from ETNO or some other less than scientific clubs) that migrant kids are "pushed around" in school in a special massive extent to the scale they cannot integrate in the future, while "hearing chants". (I come from Helsinki, and this was not the case here in the much less international 90s, and even less today.) Here is a recent thing from Somaliliitto (Somali Union, definitely not nazi racists) about youths failing to integrate and it doesn't even mention teasing in school or racism, and other artciles like that and even studies can be found by the dozen or the hundred. The problems are more related to culture esp. on the part of the above group, inability to speak or learn the local language and what habits you derive from parents. However it is the case for everyone that welfare dependency is often "inherited". It has little to do with ethnicity or being from a migrant background in on itself, it happens to everyone. You don't need to throw a fit about that. quote:Their failure to integrate isn't difficult to explain, yours is. Get the gently caress out of my country you loving nazi. Move to Siberia, it has plenty of space for you to be horrible without anyone hearing you. No it's not really difficult to explain inregration failures, but you are wrong about most of them. "Oh boy of these and these Africans are not doing well in Europe, it must be RACISM!" This doesn't quite cut it, as many extremely Non-European minorities, including African, are doing just fine. Kenyans and Nigerians kick rear end. You screaming HITTLARR gently caress FUCKS!!!1 also kinda shows a few things, like you don't know what you are talking about.
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May 8, 2017 22:32
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here is a happy poll to cheer everyone up! https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/861694249691230208
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May 8, 2017 22:36
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Ligur posted:No it's not really difficult to explain inregration failures, but you are wrong about most of them. "Oh boy of these and these Africans are not doing well in Europe, it must be RACISM!" This doesn't quite cut it, as many extremely Non-European minorities, including African, are doing just fine. Kenyans and Nigerians kick rear end. I know what I'm talking about, and I suppose it'd be more accurate to call your sad rear end a russophile. Culturally Finnish people know the Muslims are an useful canary even if they don't like them - when racism rears up its ugly head, Finns are on the receiving end sooner rather than later. And as such, anyone speaking against the Muslims in public is both an idiot and not someone who cares about Finnish traditions. Proper Finns used to have an answer to quisling authoritarians like you, and it was the firing squad. You should be glad we're not quite sticking to Finnish traditions. I'm usually angry about you being a stupid racist, but now I'm mostly angry about you claiming to stand up for anything when you can't even cover up your racism the way a Finn should.
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May 8, 2017 22:45
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endlessmonotony posted:And to add to that - Finland's left was saying that with proper integration support the influx of immigrants would help with the labor shortage we have. They didn't receive proper integration support, they received a whole lot of racism. HNNNNGG the labour shortage myth, part 300. (Which the left uses, for reasons I cannot undertand, to support their shibboleth of having mass migration and paying that from the public funds = good, which they can't admit isn't quite true). We don't have a labour shortage in anything but some very specialized professions (which often require fluent Finnish) which also shift from year to year. The labour shortage is just another of the recycled left myths in this instance. There i no labour shortage extremely poorly educated young men from the Middle-East or African can do in Finland most of the time, even if they learned some Finnish. You know we're on a 8+ year economic downturn and there are a heck of a lot fluent, educated Finnsh without jobs. Both youth and the middle aged. Mass migration through Sweden is not helping them but costing a lot of money for the society, which will require more cuts over time, rince and repeat. Again that "lot of racism" is rather suspect, because several migrant groups (including "brown people" like D&D users liked to repeat not long ago) are doing ok even in this lovely situation. And there is no lack of migrants who are pretty adamant they have never really even faced racism in Finland. What do you think that is about? quote:As long as Finnish people aren't willing to work for the median wage in Romania, they won't be happy, and meanwhile the cost of living is through the roof because of Finland's location, resources and the fact that the rents are at roughly the max you can get from someone with an average wage, which means that the people in lower-earning jobs - the ones we have a labor shortage for, well that and programmers - literally cannot justify taking one of those jobs because the transportation and living costs would make it impossible to live on that wage. They're substantially subsidized by the government as it is through rent support, and it still doesn't work. All of this I happily agree with. endlessmonotony posted:racism race race racism You seem to have a "bit" of an obsession about racism/race. Tell you what, even if you have it, most people from around where I live don't give a poo poo about race, can you believe that? Also "russophile" lol. Ligur fucked around with this message at 22:48 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 22:45
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Have you tried calling it racism on and on again ?
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May 8, 2017 22:52
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LemonDrizzle posted:here is a happy poll to cheer everyone up! That cheers me in the opposite direction of up. Down. That's 70% vote share to absolute fuckers.
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May 8, 2017 22:54
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Ligur you're probably wasting your time using actual facts, and academic studies, to back up your entirely logical arguments. Theres a very vocal minority in this thread who just resort to calling people NAZIS!!! GET OUT!!! when they don't like their dogmatic hard left political beliefs being questioned in any way. They'll try their best to shut down any debate they don't like by screaming abuse at you, rather like the fascists they claim to fight. I can completely respect those on the left who use the argument that migrants need to be let in for humanitarian reasons. But the ones who cling to the "labour shortage" or "its the local racists who keep the migrants from being successful" arguments even in the face of facts showing the complete opposite just succeed in completely undermining the whole pro-migrant position.
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May 8, 2017 22:56
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LemonDrizzle posted:here is a happy poll to cheer everyone up! That sure looks like a victory over fascism.
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May 8, 2017 23:02
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Blut posted:Ligur you're probably wasting your time using actual facts, and academic studies, to back up your entirely logical arguments. Theres a very vocal minority in this thread who just resort to calling people NAZIS!!! GET OUT!!! when they don't like their dogmatic hard left political beliefs being questioned in any way. They'll try their best to shut down any debate they don't like by screaming abuse at you, rather like the fascists they claim to fight. Yeah, because that hasn't been tried in this thread a billion times. The winner is the one who keeps posting the same thing over and over again. Get out you loving nazi.
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May 8, 2017 23:05
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Blut posted:Ligur you're probably wasting your time using actual facts, and academic studies, to back up your entirely logical arguments. Theres a very vocal minority in this thread who just resort to calling people NAZIS!!! GET OUT!!! when they don't like their dogmatic hard left political beliefs being questioned in any way. They'll try their best to shut down any debate they don't like by screaming abuse at you, rather like the fascists they claim to fight. And let me explain this in depth. The assumption you made, without which your entire point falls apart, is that your opinion - or Ligur's - is worth debunking. Because it isn't. It's just gonna come back with slight variation the next day, as insufferable as it ever was. Taking the time to address the points in the post and then pointing out the sources don't actually support the conclusions in the post is just a more wordy way of getting the same outcome as "get out you loving nazi". This isn't a debate, because a debate doesn't work without arguing in good faith, something the anti-immigrant crowd has extremely visibly abandoned a long time ago. Your facts are cherry-picked, your opinion is meaningless, nothing will ever change your mind. In short, get the gently caress out you nazi.
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May 8, 2017 23:18
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endlessmonotony posted:And let me explain this in depth. ok maybe you should go find some standard sources on immigrants (especially fleeing from war-torn shitholes) actually being economically good if you're going to say that because, and i'm letting you in on a big secret here, you don't actually debate ligur to change ligur's opinion, but to change the opinion of people who haven't already formed an opinion
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May 8, 2017 23:26
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:ok maybe you should go find some standard sources on immigrants (especially fleeing from war-torn shitholes) actually being economically good if you're going to say that The people reading this thread and who haven't formed an opinion yet (lol are there such people?) need to know an important fact first: Ligur is a nazi. A literal nazi.
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May 8, 2017 23:37
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blowfish posted:ok maybe you should go find some standard sources on immigrants (especially fleeing from war-torn shitholes) actually being economically good if you're going to say that Who? I cannot think of anyone fitting that opinion. The people telling me to dig up more sources tend to be fascism supporters. I can't imagine anyone reading this thread without having picked a side on the topic of immigration.
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May 8, 2017 23:38
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endlessmonotony posted:Who? Not every single europol reader shitposts in the thread everyday. It's also good practice in general.
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May 8, 2017 23:39
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In the United States Somali immigrants had an unemployment rate of about 21% in 2011-13, or about three times the rate for the general population. Considering most lack even the equivalent of a high school diploma the difference would be much small r if normalized for educational attainment. Could be better, but what the hell is Finland doing wrong that employment rates are so low?
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May 8, 2017 23:39
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blowfish posted:ok maybe you should go find some standard sources on immigrants (especially fleeing from war-torn shitholes) actually being economically good if you're going to say that Is it really necessary to show that refugees are good for the economy for the argument that we shouldn't let people who seek refuge in our countries die a horrible death to be valid?
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May 8, 2017 23:40
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lost in postation posted:Is it really necessary to show that refugees are good for the economy for the argument that we shouldn't let people who seek refuge in our countries die a horrible death to be valid? Of course not, and precisely for that reason I think it's a poo poo argument, so if you stoop to the level of actually making it you better back it up.
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May 8, 2017 23:41
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lost in postation posted:Is it really necessary to show that refugees are good for the economy for the argument that we shouldn't let people who seek refuge in our countries die a horrible death to be valid? I'm mostly angry about the economic impact being used as a way to convince people it isn't a good idea, when the economic impact is mostly caused by the government not even trying to support the immigrants or fixing the economy so they (and the poor among the Finns) could actually meaningfully participate.
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May 8, 2017 23:44
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Blut posted:Ligur you're probably wasting your time using actual facts, and academic studies, to back up your entirely logical arguments. Theres a very vocal minority in this thread who just resort to calling people NAZIS!!! GET OUT!!! when they don't like their dogmatic hard left political beliefs being questioned in any way. They'll try their best to shut down any debate they don't like by screaming abuse at you, rather like the fascists they claim to fight. Probably true when "debating" on the internet and at least here seems to always be the case. I just find it odd a certain group on the left is so marriend to the idea that European social democratic welfare states should just take in as many migrants (from completely different countries in every sense of the word) as want to come, to economic situations where they will often face insurmountable odds at finding work, and any opposition to this is met with great fury and after one or two posts shouting about nazis. It's not that center-right economically right groups are completely opposed, they ignore the subject at most offering EU positive platitudes to the tune of "we must share responsibility because Merkel said so" or "migrant wave is a goldmine... well, potentially... if they all get employed really fast... which has never happend - but let's ignore that for now!"" and possibly there is an evil businessman or enterpreneur somewhere rubbing his hands thinking off all the cheap labour. Sweden has actually a large and IIRC nobody knows how large sector of migrants who work for a few euros a day in uhhh "irregular jobs", living several men in a single small apartment while the landlord pulls exorbitant rents from each (this was the case with the recent driver maniac), so this all can benefit someone. What the leftists hellbent on this get out of it  quote:I can completely respect those on the left who use the argument that migrants need to be let in for humanitarian reasons. But the ones who cling to the "labour shortage" or "its the local racists who keep the migrants from being successful" arguments even in the face of facts showing the complete opposite just succeed in completely undermining the whole pro-migrant position. Oh yeah me too, if someone argues we just have to take in all comers because It Is The Right Thing To Do, and gently caress the consequences, and there will be consequences - ok then. What has grated me all these years is all the humbug and bs particularly the left pushes about fixing said labour shortage, or multiculturalism being good no matter what it brings (was 10 years ago and back), cultural enrichment, fixing the aging demographics (Sweden now has WORSE demographic distortions in certain age groups due to mass migration than China had due to the single child policy - this isn't a good thing), that migrants always come from a battlefield with grenades going off and they immediately die otherwise (they come from places like Turkey and Iran etc if you just bother to find out) , it's malicious racists that keep them from succeeding (all the while many migrants groups do just fine) and so on.
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May 8, 2017 23:46
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Squalid posted:In the United States Somali immigrants had an unemployment rate of about 21% in 2011-13, or about three times the rate for the general population. Considering most lack even the equivalent of a high school diploma the difference would be much small r if normalized for educational attainment. Could be better, but what the hell is Finland doing wrong that employment rates are so low? Right-wing government run by inept right-wing chucklefucks.
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May 9, 2017 00:11
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Ligur, I'm sure someone would listen to you if your arguments corresponded to reality. Sweden and Germany received the brunt of refugees in-between 2011 and 2015. You spent the brunt of this period complaining highly in Scandipol about the disaster this would bring and when met with any opposition you would rapidly escape into the finpol thread to complain loudly. Well today it's 2017 and as it turns out both Sweden and Germany are among the top-performing economies in the western hemisphere. If receiving immigrants is an economic malaise on the scale that you would suggest then it sure hasn't shown.
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May 9, 2017 00:30
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I am completely in support of welcoming refugees and proud that my country is doing so, but I am also somehow in doubt that it's economical beneficial to do so, at least within the first one or two generations, and believe that claiming those economic benefits hurts more than it helps this cause.
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May 9, 2017 01:13
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BabyFur Denny posted:I am completely in support of welcoming refugees and proud that my country is doing so, but I am also somehow in doubt that it's economical beneficial to do so, at least within the first one or two generations, and believe that claiming those economic benefits hurts more than it helps this cause. Does it really matter though? If there is no significant economic impact then any argument goes out the window regardless because the humanitarian reasons for accepting refugees remain absolute. Reminder here that Ligur, like most on the of the new right in Europe, doesn't believe in either and will use the first to excuse themselves from the second.
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May 9, 2017 01:20
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Kassad posted:https://twitter.com/cestrosi/status/861639137027399680 Hell yeah! Now Macron just needs to offer Valls and Bayrou a position and I'm going to win a bet. I saw this coming a mile away, they met during the campaign for a reason and it wasn't because he wanted to see what he could do for Nice loving swine, every single one of them. Judging from the protests less than 24h after the results, poo poo's gonna go down in the coming months though. Can't wait. x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx fucked around with this message at 01:31 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 01:20
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BabyFur Denny posted:I am completely in support of welcoming refugees and proud that my country is doing so, but I am also somehow in doubt that it's economical beneficial to do so, at least within the first one or two generations, and believe that claiming those economic benefits hurts more than it helps this cause. If the country they're fleeing to has substantially aged a workforce, refugees can be an economic benefit... not as big an economic benefit as giving those jobs to people who aren't fleeing from war-torn hellholes and thus don't need as much integration support, but still a net benefit. They act both as producers and as consumers and can both farm and recycle to reduce dependency on foreign resources and food, and thus end up producing more value locally than they cost internationally. This however requires the government to commit to integrating them to the workforce instead of waffling on about the free market. Also the left being honest that the jobs the refugees are suited for are building roads, farming low-quality land and digging through trash.
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May 9, 2017 01:21
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MiddleOne posted:Does it really matter though? If there is no significant economic impact then any argument goes out the window regardless because the humanitarian reasons for accepting refugees remain absolute. Reminder here that Ligur, like most on the of the new right in Europe, doesn't believe in either and will use the first to excuse themselves from the second. It doesn't matter. Which is my point. Instead of trying to convince somebody of some vague economic benefits and getting lost in arguments (point in case: the recent discussion itt) we should focus on the fact that it's the right thing to do and we don't get to be assholes just because we were lucky enough to be born in a rich country.
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May 9, 2017 01:26
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BabyFur Denny posted:It doesn't matter. Which is my point. Instead of trying to convince somebody of some vague economic benefits and getting lost in arguments (point in case: the recent discussion itt) we should focus on the fact that it's the right thing to do and we don't get to be assholes just because we were lucky enough to be born in a rich country. You're going to struggle to convince nazis to do the right thing.
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May 9, 2017 01:35
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x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:Judging from the protests less than 24h after the results, poo poo's gonna go down in the coming months though. Can't wait. I mean, that's why we have cops with emergency powers dumping teargas by the caseload on anything remotely critical of the State.
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May 9, 2017 01:36
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