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Earlier this season I posted a lot about how being in the top 4 in the east but never beating Lebron is not the worst. And I'm not one of those people who advocate for championship or bust. From a fan's perspective, someone who watches way too many games, it makes it worthwhile to have a team that wins most of them, even if you know they are never good enough. Watching wins are fun. That said, I think the window on this unit has closed. If it were two years ago I'd say go re-sign everyone and lock us in but the last few months have made me really nervous about Lowry and even Ibaka. They are great players but I cant see either getting better Lowry more so, as he has yet to have a playoff run where he isn't bothered by some injury, which will only get worse. I really hate rebuilds as I've seen this team do it so many times but I think moving on from the free agents, keeping Derozan and firing Casey is the best step.
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May 8, 2017 20:05
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Now is the time to strike with Magic in LA. See if you can get him to give up a ton of assets for DeMar. But otherwise yeah they are in a weird position where if they re-sign Lowry and Ibaka and Tucker they will likely be in the luxury tax and locked into that area for a while, barring any trades. But on the other hand it is hard to justify blowing up a 50 win, second round team. Also it's probably a bad look to trade a rotation guy and first round pick for half a season of someone, still get swept out the second round, and then let that guy walk. It'd make it a lot easier for Masai to do if Lowry actually does decide to walk though. Guess we'll see , since this is Lowry's last chance for a huge deal and he hasn't really made crazy money up to this point.
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May 8, 2017 20:21
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Hand Knit posted:Were you the person last offseason saying that "second-tier team that could sneak into the finals in an injury-lucky year" was a fine place to be? I think a couple of people were arguing that. I'm generally okay with that but I think it might be quite costly just to maintain that this offseason. Lowry, Patterson-role, and Ross-role aren't coming back at cost, so just treading water would probably require them to commit quite a bit of money. Yeah though not for injury timing. Basically look at the backlash that happened with Philly running their team down to the ground and think about the affect on the fanbase if that happened with Toronto. Those of us who are TWolves or Sacramento fans can tell you continually hanging around the lottery trying to build a contender (or else jettisoning and starting over) is not as successful or as fun as it sounds. I think keeping a 50 win team together makes sense because then you only need one really lucky thing to happen (2nd rounder becoming Draymond Green, being in the right place for a stupid trade/FA signing, etc) as opposed to most teams who need a couple of those to become a contender. Your point on money is a good one, but that is for ownership to decide on. If you crater your not getting any FAs either. Raptors were like the 5th most profitable team in 2016 so they have headroom there if they want it.
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May 8, 2017 20:22
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I think the Raptors' situation is different because of the way the team is constructed. Valanciunas is too lumbering to anchor a modern defense. DeRozan isn't gonna change. Lowry is the one piece of the team that does things that would translate to almost any team: good defender at a crucial position (if slipping lately), a decent passer, and can finish at the rim and shoot threes off the dribble. Even if you try to draft well and shuffle the margins, the team doesn't change at the core. Even hitting on a good late first just brings you more players that won't have the ball in their hands ever. That's why I think you either keep Lowry and trade DeMar or let everyone go; DeRozan is good enough to keep your team treading water for the next five years. If Lowry, Ibaka, etc walk, it's not gonna be like a Westbrook situation where your win total is at least in the 40s. The Raptors become a fringe playoff team with Solo DeRozan, like 32-38 wins every year. roundmidnight fucked around with this message at 20:42 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 20:40
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Kyle Lowry is 31 years old. If you try to start a rebuild you don't have 5 years. You probably have 2-3 before he starts slowing WAYYY down and not living up to his contract.
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May 8, 2017 20:52
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Lockback posted:Kyle Lowry is 31 years old. If you try to start a rebuild you don't have 5 years. You probably have 2-3 before he starts slowing WAYYY down and not living up to his contract. I wouldn't mind the Bulls throwing 20 million at Lowry.
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May 8, 2017 20:59
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Could be worse: at least basketball isn't solved. Probably.
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May 8, 2017 22:11
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The non Toronto max for Lowry is 4/152 . Last year is 40 mil. Holy moly.
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May 8, 2017 22:20
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Dexo posted:I wouldn't mind the Bulls throwing 20 million at Lowry. I am deeply skeptical that Lowry will sign for anything near as low as 20 million a year. Jota posted:Now is the time to strike with Magic in LA. See if you can get him to give up a ton of assets for DeMar. Yeah the thing with trades is there's always some version of "what if they got a really good return?" Like, if they could get out from under the Demarre Carroll contract in some beneficial way there might even be a way to take another couple of shots with this roster. If there's a great deal out there for Demar or JV, of course you do it. But trades like that require a willing fool, and I don't know that those types are so easy to come by. Maybe Vivek wants Demar to be the Klay to Buddy's Curry.
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May 8, 2017 22:27
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BWV posted:Earlier this season I posted a lot about how being in the top 4 in the east but never beating Lebron is not the worst. And I'm not one of those people who advocate for championship or bust. From a fan's perspective, someone who watches way too many games, it makes it worthwhile to have a team that wins most of them, even if you know they are never good enough. Watching wins are fun. From a fan of a team who is only going to win a million championships off heart, grit, and grind, having a competitive team that represents the city well and is fun to watch is absolutely priceless. I wouldn't trade that game 3 win over the Spurs for hardly anything. Except a championship
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May 8, 2017 22:48
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Dexo posted:I wouldn't mind the Bulls throwing 20 million at Lowry. I wouldn't mind watching the Bulls do that either
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May 8, 2017 22:54
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Lessail posted:It is if you have championship aspirations Except it rarely works and the odds are it won't for Philly either. It's probably four years of sucking rear end to max out as the team you have now.
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May 8, 2017 22:59
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The Glumslinger posted:I wouldn't mind watching the Bulls do that either Honestly consistent PG play is probably the difference between the Bulls being the eighth seed and the Bulls having home court in the first round
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May 8, 2017 23:19
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DeimosRising posted:Except it rarely works and the odds are it won't for Philly either. It's probably four years of sucking rear end to max out as the team you have now. Idk that team is two healthy draftees plus a 3&d guy away from the sixth seed or higher That said I agree with you, 'rebuilding' is a terrible idea. Get rid of Carrol and maybe Casey
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May 8, 2017 23:39
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is lowry alpha enough for the bulls. he doesn't seem like it, but i dunno
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May 9, 2017 00:09
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At this point you just gotta hope that going to the Finals 1000 times in a row will actually eventually wear LeBron out sometime soon-ish, yeah? No point getting a year or two head start on your rebuild just because you're grumpy about the reality that 99% of NBA teams don't win a title Appreciate the beautiful Lowry-Derozan friendship while you can and stop defining basketball success by titles
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May 9, 2017 00:11
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xbilkis posted:stop defining basketball success by titles This
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May 9, 2017 00:15
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The Raps are Clippers East. Or the Clippers are Raps West. Well, in terms of recent performance anyway.
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May 9, 2017 00:27
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DeimosRising posted:Except it rarely works and the odds are it won't for Philly either. It's probably four years of sucking rear end to max out as the team you have now. Plus even if things work out perfectly for a Philly a lot of the model is hard to replicate because a lot of it is depending on having drafted a great player but he wasn't healthy for a long time so he couldn't gently caress the tank up but when the time's right he will definitely be healthy for good. Or the Cleveland variant, where you draft an all-time great and then he leaves for a while so you can draft Kyrie Irving and Tristan Thompson and then he comes back because he's from there.
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May 9, 2017 00:34
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Based on his latest article, I can't tell if this thread is the Hivemind for Zach Lowe, or if he secretly hangs out on this forum 
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May 9, 2017 01:02
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who's going to overpay Kyle Lowry seems like the sort of thing a knicks would do can the Spurs afford him? What's their cap like?
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May 9, 2017 03:44
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balancedbias posted:Based on his latest article, I can't tell if this thread is the Hivemind for Zach Lowe, or if he secretly hangs out on this forum I called his rear end out a little while ago so maybe this is him finally getting around to another self-google and responding I know you see this Zach Lowe. I know you see this
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May 9, 2017 03:48
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DeimosRising posted:Except it rarely works and the odds are it won't for Philly either. It's probably four years of sucking rear end to max out as the team you have now. Nah, a team doesn't matter if it doesn't have a superstar.
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May 9, 2017 04:02
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delly was available but you guys didnt pursue
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May 9, 2017 04:09
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EvanTH posted:who's going to overpay Kyle Lowry $92.6 million for next year, but I think that's with Gasol(16.3)/Dedmon(3.0)/Lee(1.6) picking up their player contracts. Dedmon will definitely opt out; I'd guess that Gasol will too and who knows with Lee. Broken Tony Parker would cost them $15.5 million next year.
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May 9, 2017 04:30
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Hi thread! The Warriors are really good! Probably would have wound up about the same anyway but I do kinda wish I could have seen what would have happened if this team had stayed healthy. At completely full strength I think they were as good as anyone except the Warriors. Hope they can bring Heyward and Hill back next year. It'll probably end up about the same way but it's way better than the alternative.
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May 9, 2017 04:32
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EvanTH posted:who's going to overpay Kyle Lowry The man who brought him to Toronto
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May 9, 2017 04:35
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much RESPECT to the utah Yazz
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May 9, 2017 04:35
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Yeah the Spurs are locked in unless Tony Parker retires and gets bought out and Manu also decides to retire but that brings with it other challenges It's also going to be a matter of if the Spurs want to roll with Patty Mills and Dejounte Murray as their PG rotation of the future (ugh) or actually try to replace Parker and Manu as creators, which might not be necessary with Kawhi being able to do a lot more off the bounce than anyone would have expected
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May 9, 2017 04:35
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These playoffs, as a whole, loving suck. They're leading to a bomb rear end finals but the rest is awful. Oh except Wizards/Celtics. Spurs/Rockets is good in the sense that the series is tied but the games themselves haven't been very good. I think Spurs/Grizzlies will be the best series other than the Finals.
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May 9, 2017 04:42
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Jazz are a good team and maybe that Aussie PG finally makes the leap next year.
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May 9, 2017 04:50
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https://twitter.com/KevinHFY/status/861789247837052928
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May 9, 2017 04:59
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Lockback posted:Jazz are a good team and maybe that Aussie PG finally makes the leap next year. It would be a pretty dramatic leap. Hill is on the wrong side of 30 and couldn't stay on the court this year but they're gonna be hosed if they can't bring him back
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May 9, 2017 05:00
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Lessail posted:Nah, a team doesn't matter if it doesn't have a superstar. Yeah but there are maybe 10 guys in the league at any time on that level. If you tank fucken hard and get 5 top five picks in a row, the odds aren't you don't draft a single guy on that level. You probably get two busts, Ibaka, Lowry, and Derozen. Look at the Wizards, the Blazers, the Magic, the Wolves like 4 or 5 times, even the Thunder, who got closer than most. It usually doesn't work. You're just as likely to make the leap the way the Lakers did (insanely lucky mid rounder and a dickhead free agent who wants to play in your city) or the Cavs (blow your picks and luck into more, and a dickhead free agent wants to come home) or the way the Warriors did (late lottery gambles and second rounders that all worked by sheer luck, plus TWO dickhead free agents playing mercenary) or the Celtics (multiple teams had a fire sale when they had a pile ornate mediocre assets and a lonely superstar) or the Heat (dickhead free agents plus lonely superstars. Actually building from a full tank describes no title team in the last 20 years except maybe the Pistons and the 2006 Heat. SamuraiFoochs posted:These playoffs, as a whole, loving suck. They're leading to a bomb rear end finals but the rest is awful. Oh except Wizards/Celtics. Spurs/Rockets is good in the sense that the series is tied but the games themselves haven't been very good. I think Spurs/Grizzlies will be the best series other than the Finals. First round was great, every series but Warriors/Blazers was good. Even Cavs/Pacers had close games and great players going wild.
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May 9, 2017 05:01
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Lessail posted:Nah, a team doesn't matter if it doesn't have a superstar. If you think your 50 win team is broken beyond redemption why do you think tank-for-a-superstar wouldn't end up looking like the Boogie Cousins Kings or something
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May 9, 2017 05:07
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Jota posted:The man who brought him to Toronto I recall some factoid where Lowry hates Colangelo and liked Hinkie Nor do I want to pay him the max
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May 9, 2017 05:16
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DeimosRising posted:Yeah but there are maybe 10 guys in the league at any time on that level. If you tank fucken hard and get 5 top five picks in a row, the odds aren't you don't draft a single guy on that level. You probably get two busts, Ibaka, Lowry, and Derozen. Look at the Wizards, the Blazers, the Magic, the Wolves like 4 or 5 times, even the Thunder, who got closer than most. It usually doesn't work. You're just as likely to make the leap the way the Lakers did (insanely lucky mid rounder and a dickhead free agent who wants to play in your city) or the Cavs (blow your picks and luck into more, and a dickhead free agent wants to come home) or the way the Warriors did (late lottery gambles and second rounders that all worked by sheer luck, plus TWO dickhead free agents playing mercenary) or the Celtics (multiple teams had a fire sale when they had a pile ornate mediocre assets and a lonely superstar) or the Heat (dickhead free agents plus lonely superstars. Actually building from a full tank describes no title team in the last 20 years except maybe the Pistons and the 2006 Heat. While I think you're ultimately probably right, I think the Thunder almost certainly would've been a title team if they had held onto Harden and Ibaka. If they had stayed together long enough eventually they wouldn't have had such bad injury luck and would've taken one. I think if you're a franchise following the Thunder model makes sense. Because presumably you're planning to not trade one of the three future MVP candidates (you can argue hindsight, but even at the time it was obvious Harden was very good) you drafted high up for some vastly inferior wings and a guy with a cool accent. Or even by using cap space more wisely then the Gullenist that can't play defense.
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May 9, 2017 05:21
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This is a pro-click.
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May 9, 2017 05:21
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I just found out Kyle Lowry is 31 and my mind is loving BLOWN. Also, I feel like Toronto sunk just enough assets into acquiring Ibaka to make the sunk cost thing an inevitable problem with his FA. I also think Serge will take a discount if his other options are similar to the Magic. He seemed to be really sad in Orlando. He just wants to make the playoffs and shoot his 16 footers--let the boy have his midrangers for 16 mil a year and call it good.
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May 9, 2017 05:23
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SCARYJEINFELD posted:While I think you're ultimately probably right, I think the Thunder almost certainly would've been a title team if they had held onto Harden and Ibaka. If they had stayed together long enough eventually they wouldn't have had such bad injury luck and would've taken one. I think if you're a franchise following the Thunder model makes sense. Because presumably you're planning to not trade one of the three future MVP candidates (you can argue hindsight, but even at the time it was obvious Harden was very good) you drafted high up for some vastly inferior wings and a guy with a cool accent. Or even by using cap space more wisely then the Gullenist that can't play defense. Teams have tried to follow the Thunder model. None of them have even made it to the playoffs, yet.
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May 9, 2017 05:26
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