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Annual Prophet posted:has dsa made an effort to establish direct lines of communication and coordination to and with comparable parties abroad? because (french and other elections notwithstanding) it certainly seems as though the far right is on the move throughout europe as well. coordination of action and planning, sharing of resources, lessons learned and best practices etc. all seem very desirable in the age of trump, and more broadly in an era characterized by free movement of capital but high levels of constraints on workers i don't think there is much of anything a tiny dsa party can do abroad without first accumulating loads of money
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May 9, 2017 13:01
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also "going international" usually always involves chatting poo poo about the israel palestine thing, siding with palestine, yelling really loudly about how important palestine is, and then slowly sliding back into the obscurity of student politics as you fail to focus on anything but palestine, which is not really what i want to happen to dsa
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May 9, 2017 13:03
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You guys were right. I think I've been so upset about this on a personal level that I've been a shithead and unhelpful. The structure of the organization won't allow the kind of shenanigans I'm afraid of to happen. Sorry for wigging out. It was a dark time for me. The more I think about it, the more I slip into this awful mindset. I physically shake with rage sometimes, thinking about it. I'll show up and see what happens. It'll probably give me closure, and I think the worst probably already has happened, so there's that. Thanks. Martin Random has issued a correction as of 18:12 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 18:04
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Martin Random posted:You guys were right. I think I've been so upset about this on a personal level that I've been a shithead and unhelpful. The structure of the organization won't allow the kind of shenanigans I'm afraid of to happen. I'm glad you were able to get it off your chest.
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May 9, 2017 19:12
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:also "going international" usually always involves chatting poo poo about the israel palestine thing, siding with palestine, yelling really loudly about how important palestine is, and then slowly sliding back into the obscurity of student politics as you fail to focus on anything but palestine, which is not really what i want to happen to dsa If internationalism leads to single-issue obsessions we need to find a way around that, because socialism without internationalism is really dumb.
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May 9, 2017 20:01
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platzapS posted:Can you say more about your experiences with this? Otherwise it seems like a huge unjustified leap. just imagine if at the national convention, dsa adopted a platform with a huge many-pages-long critique of modern hyperglobalized finance, modern colonialism (on the part of the usa, russia, china, the eu core towards the periphery, etc) by means financial and military, calling for solidarity between all members of the global 99%, etc. basically nothing disagreeable to an international socialist perspective. then of course there would have to be a critique of israeli settlements and a pro-BDS statement. if any sort of outside media wanted to report on this, what would be the one part that they pick out of the rest of the platform and focus all their attention on? the line on israel/palestine is the most closely policed item in the mainstream discourse. it could be the part of the platform that gets put under a microscope whether we like it or not e: i dont have any first-hand experience with this myself but as an academic, i agree that I/P is such a harshly-policed discourse in academia that if you step out of line with any volume 9 times out of 10 it eventually defines you no matter what Shear Modulus has issued a correction as of 20:16 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 20:13
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Shear Modulus posted:if any sort of outside media wanted to report on this, what would be the one part that they pick out of the rest of the platform and focus all their attention on? the line on israel/palestine is the most closely policed item in the mainstream discourse. it could be the part of the platform that gets put under a microscope whether we like it or not In fact, if criticizing Israel is the most controversial thing we stand for that's an indictment of the vagueness or cowardice of our stated goals. platzapS has issued a correction as of 20:56 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 20:47
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The D in DSA seems to hint that the organization's top priority is local (or at least national) democratic organization and power. Statements of international solidarity and condemnation are good, but I think for most people big far-away problems like israeli apartheid triggers Oh Dearism and inaction.
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May 9, 2017 20:57
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platzapS posted:Hmm. That might be true, but what of it? Should we refuse to criticize our government for funding apartheid or colonialism? If "mainstream discourse" is our guide we should drop the word socialist from our name. critique all you want, but there are many hills to die on and many of them are not really worth it. dsa's main objective should be to gather voting and financial support and sometimes it's best to avoid controversies in favour of appearing more likeable also Doc Hawkins posted:The D in DSA seems to hint that the organization's top priority is local (or at least national) democratic organization and power.
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May 9, 2017 21:09
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it's true, tbh im pretty much gonna shrug at any international call for action since id rather focus on making the place I'm at nicer
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May 9, 2017 21:16
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Agean90 posted:it's true, tbh im pretty much gonna shrug at any international call for action since id rather focus on making the place I'm at nicer Yeah but then why have a national organization? Why not just be completely locally-focused? I'm not saying we're responsible to solve the world's problems by declarations, I'm saying it's probably in our interests to try to coordinate with people in other countries more. I might have got carried away. platzapS has issued a correction as of 21:37 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 21:33
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platzapS posted:Yeah but then why have a national organization? Why not just be completely locally-focused? I'm not saying we're responsible to solve the world's problems by declarations, I'm saying it's probably in our interests to try to coordinate with people in other countries more. I might have got carried away. This isn't meant as a gotcha - how would coordinating with people in other countries serve our interests? They don't vote in our elections, they don't have agency over our ruling class, they don't have the same understanding of our local and state and federal issues that we do. I genuinely don't understand how international coordination is going to serve our interests. It might be something we want to do for moral/ethical reasons, but from a pure self-interest perspective, I'm sincerely not following you.
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May 9, 2017 21:37
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platzapS posted:Yeah but then why have a national organization? Why not just be completely locally-focused? I'm not saying we're responsible to solve the world's problems by declarations, I'm saying it's probably in our interests to try to coordinate with people in other countries more. I might have gotten carried away. Because your locality is directly affected by the US National Government, and you need to build a power structure to interact with that, but foreign policy positions for a minority party are basically pointless grandstanding. The DSA has 0 power to change the US stance on Isreal, and it won't for a very long time so why waste all this breath.
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May 9, 2017 21:39
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platzapS posted:Yeah but then why have a national organization? Why not just be completely locally-focused? quote:I'm not saying we're responsible to solve the world's problems by declarations, I'm saying it's probably in our interests to try to coordinate with people in other countries more. I admit I was only thinking in terms of press releases. Can you tell me more of the forms you'd imagine coordination taking? (I think we're all on the same page of thinking that even press releases are a good thing that the organization should do.) quote:I might have got carried away. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice," as a previous generation's Bernie used to say.
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May 9, 2017 21:45
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:This isn't meant as a gotcha - how would coordinating with people in other countries serve our interests? They don't vote in our elections, they don't have agency over our ruling class, they don't have the same understanding of our local and state and federal issues that we do. I genuinely don't understand how international coordination is going to serve our interests. It might be something we want to do for moral/ethical reasons, but from a pure self-interest perspective, I'm sincerely not following you. When Socialist Alternative ran Kshama Sawant in Seattle we had comrades from around the world come and volunteer on that campaign. Similarly, now when a bunch of our comrades are facing prison sentences in Ireland for protesting austerity, we have raised funds and sent material support. The working class is international and being part of an international helps us work in solidarity across national borders, and it helps us to stay abreast of what's happening around the world. I feel like as socialists we want the liberation of working people everywhere, not just the few miles around our house. To do that, we need to work in a local capacity where we can have effect, but we can't neglect the national or international picture and the needs and struggles of workers around the world.
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May 9, 2017 21:48
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platzapS posted:Yeah but then why have a national organization? Why not just be completely locally-focused? I'm not saying we're responsible to solve the world's problems by declarations, I'm saying it's probably in our interests to try to coordinate with people in other countries more. I might have got carried away. because state and national policy has a large affect on local conditions. furthermore there's a big difference between "phonebanking for a guy a few states over" and saying isreal bad in terms of effectiveness.
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May 9, 2017 21:50
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Socialism is an international movement to liberate the entire species. The US of all places is not going to be socialized (that is, fully democratized) without a lot of the rest of the world going with it. That suggests to me we should start building international ties today. It could be small things right now. Maybe a Tanzanian org could tell us about a trade bill that would devastate African farmers and we could lobby against it. Maybe an Indonesian union could alert Seattle and LA to a container ship full of scab goods. Climate change would be perfect for collaboration, as would migrant issues. I may be fighting phantoms here. If this is already being done let me know how to get involved.
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May 9, 2017 22:05
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I mean, it's happening but at the individual person-to-person level. The national organization isn't coherent enough to coordinate anything like that (yet).
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May 9, 2017 22:22
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platzapS posted:Socialism is an international movement to liberate the entire species. The US of all places is not going to be socialized (that is, fully democratized) without a lot of the rest of the world going with it. That suggests to me we should start building international ties today. It could be small things right now. Maybe a Tanzanian org could tell us about a trade bill that would devastate African farmers and we could lobby against it. Maybe an Indonesian union could alert Seattle and LA to a container ship full of scab goods. Climate change would be perfect for collaboration, as would migrant issues. im actually liberating the entire species while my backyard is a republican stronghold AMA
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May 9, 2017 22:34
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Shear Modulus posted:I mean, it's happening but at the individual person-to-person level. The national organization isn't coherent enough to coordinate anything like that (yet).
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May 9, 2017 23:51
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:im actually liberating the entire species while my backyard is a republican stronghold AMA
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May 9, 2017 23:59
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logikv9 posted:
 I've always wanted a gangtag!
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May 10, 2017 00:30
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Hello DSA thread. 
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People talking about local chapters cooperating has had me thinking about NH and how we launched a state wide chapter. With that off the ground and running maybe it's time for me to focus on organizing a local DSA chapter in my own town. Surely I can get 4 other people on this town of 20,000+. A chapter in every town right?
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May 10, 2017 14:09
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Anyone have any experience with the Northside Chicago DSA? I've been meaning to go to a meeting, and now that my class is over I should have the time to start participating.
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May 10, 2017 16:36
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In case you missed it, we are still reading Capital over in this thread.
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May 10, 2017 17:10
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Thermite posted:Anyone have any experience with the Northside Chicago DSA? I've been meaning to go to a meeting, and now that my class is over I should have the time to start participating. I've only been able to meet up with them for their "Introduction to Democratic Socialism" workshop plus the Women's Day event at CTU's headquarters (also bc of classes), but they're pretty nice and chill. I'm thinking of going to the labor group meeting on Saturday, but I'll probably chicken out lol.
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May 10, 2017 19:45
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:This isn't meant as a gotcha - how would coordinating with people in other countries serve our interests? They don't vote in our elections, they don't have agency over our ruling class, they don't have the same understanding of our local and state and federal issues that we do. I genuinely don't understand how international coordination is going to serve our interests. It might be something we want to do for moral/ethical reasons, but from a pure self-interest perspective, I'm sincerely not following you. Example out of a hat - brutal police techniques refined in Israel are used in Ferguson, MO -- and vice-versa. US foreign policy plays a direct role not just in creating the refugee and immigration crises we have all around the world, but the US security state is just as active doing all the awful things "out there" it does here. The ruling class does not hesitate to collaborate, why shouldn't those who oppose them? gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:Because your locality is directly affected by the US National Government, and you need to build a power structure to interact with that, but foreign policy positions for a minority party are basically pointless grandstanding. The DSA has 0 power to change the US stance on Isreal, and it won't for a very long time so why waste all this breath. This is absolutely not true - an organization the size and scale of DSA can actually have an extremely important impact on a cause like the Israeli occupation. That's why so many anti-BDS bills have been introduced in otherwise "blue" states like Maryland and New York; the state has to use very blunt tools to deal with this emerging movement because it really does represent a threat to the status quo if the movement to sanction Israel becomes more widespread. What's more, it shows a dedicated and consistent anti-racist framework and stands in solidarity with racially oppressed people. Even if it's not a winning campaign yet (and, like I just said - judging from the response the BDS movement garners in the USA, I think it's defeatist to say it's a losing battle). Even from a purely selfish standpoint, taking a principled stand on US foreign policy is going to win the respect of working immigrant communities, especially those most at threat (Middle-Eastern, Latin American) from a Trump administration. Also, deciding only to fight "winning battles" is a fast track to triangulation and bullshit. It's ruling class ideology.
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May 10, 2017 22:09
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Its not that you shouldn't take the position, send all the letters and whatever you want. Its more that its wrong, imo, to focus a lot of energy or resources there. there are so many more pressing local issues- like most of OUR country lives in de facto segregation, and we have equally abusive practices in the police and criminal punitive system. Its the same as engaging in war tourism to the middle east when you have plenty of need outside your front door in the nearest slum
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May 10, 2017 22:28
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people mostly are too cowardly to fight an equally evil enemy face-to-face, so they pursue a combat that is across the globe and tell themselves this is all they can do from here, and they are doing their best. that is NOT doing the best. e: I guess to sum up my feelings- I think it's a way for people to avert their eyes from much scarier work of worth, like volunteering in prisons to reform them or canvas their city, or confront the local police when they are there for a stranger, etc fuck. marry. t-rex has issued a correction as of 23:04 on May 10, 2017 |
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May 10, 2017 22:30
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:Its not that you shouldn't take the position, send all the letters and whatever you want. Its more that its wrong, imo, to focus a lot of energy or resources there. there are so many more pressing local issues- like most of OUR country lives in de facto segregation, and we have equally abusive practices in the police and criminal punitive system. Yeah I agree with this guy. Its important to have stances on foreign issues but especially with where DSA is right now in most areas (ie. 5-25 dorks fumbling in politics for the first time), it seems a little premature to try and fight against Israel and reform the Socialist International. Local wins bring in new members, coalesce power, and, most importantly, score wins. There's a million activism groups that deal with foreign issues that know this poo poo way better than us. If we build up our support and start winning elections while standing in solidarity with said groups, we can group up and adopt their ideas at a point when we can meaningfully change things.
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May 10, 2017 23:09
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This is not to deny that most of our immediate work will be local or national because that's what we best understand and can most affect right now.
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May 10, 2017 23:23
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:The ruling class does not hesitate to collaborate, why shouldn't those who oppose them? I'm inclined toward opposition due to perceived resource constraints. My feeling is that, in the US, there's a dire need for locally-focused groups everywhere and especially any kind of pro-labor group, locally or nationally. There is an immediate, burning need to fill that space. The DSA will never be large enough to fill it and be left with surplus resources. Therefore, I'm biased against the DSA going international except insofar as they can push national/international cooperation which will be of benefit to local groups. e.g. Boston develops a high capacity for a particular kind of work, gets into the business of inviting people from all over to spread the knowledge and experience around. Or a piece of legislation's trying to wind it's way through congress, have the pre-existing relationships through national to coordinate a national full-court press. And this is not to say DSA chapters should avoid marches or other low-cost shows of solidarity and internationalism. If it doesn't run afoul of resource constraints, go for it.
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May 10, 2017 23:51
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It all comes back to capitalism, and the only way socialism has a chance on this planet is if the US gov is reformed, over thrown, or becomes severely weakened. Until then the US state department, intelligence agencies, and military will do whatever the capitalist class seems necessary to stop socialism from spreading internationally. Look at Venezuela and Cuba.
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May 10, 2017 23:57
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tl;dr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZerhwHtW1M
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May 11, 2017 00:14
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May 11, 2017 00:18
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May 11, 2017 00:18
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Agreed with the comments above, with the caveat that DSA organizations that have the good fortune to already be strong and exist in locations with active BDS groups have nothing to lose and everything to gain by working alongside those opposing colonialist apartheid worldwide. Our fight isn't just building up ourselves - its demonstrating to the activists who have been doing the work for years and years that we're not a bunch of johnny-come-latelys. Who in your group knows how to have an organizing conversation? Who knows how to canvas? Who knows how to run an electoral campaign? The other left orgs in your area have someone like that, and showing up to a BDS march shows them that you're committed to helping all who suffer under capitalism, not a bunch of vaguely left democrats whose idea of a perfect society is iceland.
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May 11, 2017 00:34
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I feel strongly about liberating the Palestinian people, but I think these following ideas are inaccurate: 1) areas having strong DSA orgs are casually linked to BDS constructions, rather than coincidentally 2) that DSA orgs have to prove anything to those groups when the struggle has always been getting "normies" involved, not radical leftists I realize this echoes basically the sentiment of liberals w/r/t socialism but still, I think there are much more powerful avenues of structure, such as within predominately latinx, black, etc working & immigrant communities. But I guess that is more a reflection of my specific local- other areas with high populations of middle-easterners would I guess value Palestine/Isreal much higher... I guess this sort of gets back to the root idea, focus on building local groups and do things that benefit your local community directly fuck. marry. t-rex has issued a correction as of 01:06 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 01:04
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:I guess this sort of gets back to the root idea, focus on building local groups and do things that benefit your local community directly All I'm saying is, affiliate with the causes and groups that are popular in your area. You're right that we'll never win by exclusively gathing leftists from other groups into the DSA. However, many chapters are new and have a lot to gain by making inroads with groups whose demographics may not be well-represented in the branch, who also have a lot of people who have been doing the work for a long time. I think we agree a lot here that fundamentally this comes down to a chapters context. A chapter in an area that deals a lot with white supremacy's effects on black communities has immediate concerns with fighting that battle. We definitely want to have a broad reach. We should be canvassing, aggressively recruiting, and organizing communities wherever we are! But part of that involves working alongside and with some orgs whose goals may seem unreachable for the moment. I'm not really arguing so much against your point specifically as I am with some of the conservativism of older guard members, who do not, in some cases want to be associated with "lefter" causes like BDS.
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May 11, 2017 02:26
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Where can I get these?
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May 11, 2017 02:28
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