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GaussianCopula posted:In QM taunt is not picked nearly as much as it should. If they made him a tank in the matchmaking, people would whine because their Varian wanted to be a dope dualwielding assassin . I don't doubt it, but again that's true for all heroes. The only way to save people from losing games because their teammates pick garbage talent builds is to get rid of talents, and unfortunately that ship has almost certainly sailed.
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May 10, 2017 12:50
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Getting rid of talents would suck
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May 10, 2017 13:09
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Gustav posted:I don't doubt it, but again that's true for all heroes. The only way to save people from losing games because their teammates pick garbage talent builds is to get rid of talents, and unfortunately that ship has almost certainly sailed. So make the game garbage, then.
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May 10, 2017 13:14
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Heroes of the Storm: Now with Gold, creep denial, and separate XP pools for each player. Also one gigantic map.
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May 10, 2017 13:15
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No talents. Raynor only. Lost cavern.
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May 10, 2017 13:17
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I'm saying there's no way to get rid of the problem of losing games because your teammates pick lovely talents, it is inextricably linked to the talent system in general. It's not a problem that can be solved with tweaks, redesigns or changes to the matchmaking.
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May 10, 2017 13:18
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Gustav posted:I'm saying there's no way to get rid of the problem of losing games because your teammates pick lovely talents, it is inextricably linked to the talent system in general. It's not a problem that can be solved with tweaks, redesigns or changes to the matchmaking. They could highlight recommended build paths when you're below level 5 with a character.
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May 10, 2017 13:20
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You can equally lose because of any other mistakes your teammates make.
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May 10, 2017 13:20
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THE BAR posted:They could highlight recommended build paths when you're below level 5 with a character. They do this in the veteran tutorial so the framework is already there. Not sure how'd you determine the recomended build though as ideally talents should be situational.
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May 10, 2017 13:23
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Avalerion posted:They do this in the veteran tutorial so the framework is already there. Not sure how'd you determine the recomended build though as ideally talents should ideally be situational. Characters generally have three things Blizzard wants them to do. They could colour code each path on the talent tree. E: This doesn't prevent people from taking objectively bad talents, but at least they're keeping to the build this way.
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May 10, 2017 13:25
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Apparently my boy Tass is the worst character in the game again. Got MVP with him twice  we lost both matches.I don't know what to pick on him anymore. Psi storm feels underwhelming from what I remember
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May 10, 2017 13:26
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Gustav posted:I don't doubt it, but again that's true for all heroes/champions. The only way to save people from losing games because their teammates pick garbage Yeah, it's a low blow edit, but something needs to exist to customize your character as a game progresses. It's pretty much required in the genre. The system allows for flexibility and a touch of unpredictability in every match. Sometimes it doesn't work in your favor, true. But it more often does what it's designed to do, allowing for variety and helping to prevent heroes from being forced into exactly one niche and that niche only. Talents work well because they're able to interact directly with a hero's abilities in interesting ways. They can almost all be boiled down to "Do thing, but better," but doing it in different ways requiring different situations helps keep a hero from getting stale.
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May 10, 2017 13:29
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Gustav posted:I'm saying there's no way to get rid of the problem of losing games because your teammates pick lovely talents, it is inextricably linked to the talent system in general. It's not a problem that can be solved with tweaks, redesigns or changes to the matchmaking. I'm not saying players are stupid, but if you pick Ragnaros on Braxis Holdout you should not be allowed to pick Sulfuras Smash at 10. Also for gently caress's sake someone tell these idiots that the cooldown on his trait is short enough to use it between waves. AGHHGH
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May 10, 2017 13:37
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Huh. So in League, there's a hero named Singed who is impossible to kill, has good waveclear, and chasing him results in your death 90% of the time. He has a strategy called proxy farming where he stands between enemy fort and keep and engages enemies there. This means your minions hit enemy wall, and your opponent either must stay there to get exp or come deal with you. It's never really taken off in HotS, probably because A) there's no real Singed-like hero and B) the maps smaller than LoL. D.Va might fit the bill, though. I might try it in a QM next Cursed Hollow or Warhead Junction. One of those "send 2 people to deal with 1 so you win the other lanes" situations. e: I guess could also work with Li Li or Murky. Since we haven't seen it yet, I'm going to assume it doesn't work.
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May 10, 2017 13:46
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Talent choices are probably way overemphasized ahead of the many other reasons why teams lose, which mainly comes down to dying before an objective, dying unnecessarily during a retreat, dying while on defense. Basically, dying.
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May 10, 2017 13:48
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exquisite tea posted:Talent choices are probably way overemphasized ahead of the many other reasons why teams lose, which mainly comes down to dying before an objective, dying unnecessarily during a retreat, dying while on defense. Basically, dying. *2 people die dicking around near an enemy keep by themselves 20 minutes into the game while the entire enemy team is up* *objective spawns* *both people ping DEFEND HERE repeatedly at the objective*
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May 10, 2017 13:52
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Proxy farming works because you become worth less the more you die. It's just feeding in a spot where they have to waste too much time to deal with you. Singed can't kill people or become really tanking until after laning
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May 10, 2017 13:57
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BrianBoitano posted:Huh. So in League, there's a hero named Singed who is impossible to kill, has good waveclear, and chasing him results in your death 90% of the time. The reason Singed can do this is because he able to leave a poison trail that DoTs enemies as they pass through it. Singed can lead enemy minions through it and then has solid tankiness to run out when he is in trouble, along with a slow and a displacement ability to outpace his enemy. In addition to this, you are completely missing why this works in league and won't in hots. You aren't proxying as singed to deal damage to enemy structures, you are doing it specifically so that your minions die to the enemy structure before your opponent has the opportunity to last hit them for the gold. In HotS, they are still going to get the XP for their deaths, making it far less useful as a risk/reward proposition
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May 10, 2017 14:03
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signalnoise posted:I'm not saying players are stupid, but if you pick Ragnaros on Braxis Holdout you should not be allowed to pick Sulfuras Smash at 10. lol
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May 10, 2017 14:19
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BrianBoitano posted:e: I guess could also work with Li Li or Murky. Since we haven't seen it yet, I'm going to assume it doesn't work. Li Li's a surprisingly good lane bully. She can keep herself topped off and can kite melee people while hitting them with high damage blinds. She has poor pushing power, though, so her winning the lane isn't a big deal, and she'll have to run off as soon as the objectives happen. Murky's a weird one. His lane strength is that he's essentially ungankable so you can't remove him from a lane, but before 13 he's one of the weakest 1v1 heroes in the game. So all you need is one hero with a reasonably strong auto attack and you shut down Murky completely (most heroes kill the fish in 2-3 autos and then you just bully Murky away from the minions). Murky's only recourse is to repeatedly kamikaze you to try and wear you down enough to have to hearthstone, but anyone with sustain counters this completely. Don't ever make Murky solo on Braxis. He can soak the lane fine, but he can't capture the beacon. Re: Ragnaros on Braxis, Lava Wave doesn't do that much damage to the zerg and the beacons themselves aren't in the lanes so...
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May 10, 2017 14:26
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Are pushers like Xul and Sylvanas good in ranked if I just want to spend the whole game being an rear end in a top hat that focuses on pushing lanes where everyone isn't? Or is that mainly a QM thing that's been working for me because I'm with a coordinated goon team?
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May 10, 2017 14:30
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In bronze probably. Less so as you go up in ranks. Actually there's a guy named Splitpusher and that's literally all he would do. This was before the 2nd ranked revamp when they changed hero league to solo queue only. I think he got to plat only split pushing. My buddy and I lost 100% of the games we played with him.
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May 10, 2017 14:34
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IcePhoenix posted:Are pushers like Xul and Sylvanas good in ranked if I just want to spend the whole game being an rear end in a top hat that focuses on pushing lanes where everyone isn't? Or is that mainly a QM thing that's been working for me because I'm with a coordinated goon team? Against anyone with map awareness they will spot you doing that and their team will just rotate to gank you constantly.
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May 10, 2017 14:41
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HelixFox posted:Re: Ragnaros on Braxis, Lava Wave doesn't do that much damage to the zerg and the beacons themselves aren't in the lanes so... Against a full zerg wave the amount of damage it puts out just due to how many targets there are is enormous. Sure it's not going to clear the wave by itself, but it's significant and worth doing especially because whatever lane the zerg's in is likely to also be the lane most of the enemy team is in. IcePhoenix posted:Are pushers like Xul and Sylvanas good in ranked if I just want to spend the whole game being an rear end in a top hat that focuses on pushing lanes where everyone isn't? Or is that mainly a QM thing that's been working for me because I'm with a coordinated goon team? One of my friends plays Sylvanas almost exclusively and he just runs around taking 10+ merc camps per game. We win more often than not due to minion waves that the enemy team is forced to deal with. Pushing lanes is cool but she does much better enabling another team member than pushing it over all by herself in my opinion. signalnoise fucked around with this message at 14:47 on May 10, 2017 |
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May 10, 2017 14:45
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Gustav posted:I'm saying there's no way to get rid of the problem of losing games because your teammates pick lovely talents, it is inextricably linked to the talent system in general. It's not a problem that can be solved with tweaks, redesigns or changes to the matchmaking. Or it's because they have lovely map awareness and overextend/feed/aggressively retreat/waste time/any number of other things instead of being useful to your team. Talents matter, but they won't immediately break your team in QM. Un/ranked are a different story, ostensibly.
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May 10, 2017 14:48
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Merc camps are grossly underestimated in general.
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May 10, 2017 14:49
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Gustav posted:Merc camps are grossly underestimated in general. Depends, on Tower of Doom I have seen people throw games for a single bottom siege camp that does nothing anyway.
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May 10, 2017 14:50
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Sylv is pretty good at moving lanes but there are other heroes that do a better job of it solo. She's more like a group amplifier who can go do stuff on her own then swoop in and contribute to team fights.
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May 10, 2017 14:50
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IcePhoenix posted:spend the whole game being an rear end in a top hat that focuses on pushing lanes where everyone isn't You should not do this, and turn up to objectives/teamfights instead. Sylv is better at pushing with teammates than split pushing, because of her trait.
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May 10, 2017 14:51
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signalnoise posted:Against a full zerg wave the amount of damage it puts out just due to how many targets there are is enormous. Sure it's not going to clear the wave by itself, but it's significant and worth doing especially because whatever lane the zerg's in is likely to also be the lane most of the enemy team is in. You could just take Smash and win fights at the beacons though? Not trying to be lovely, I'm legit curious.
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May 10, 2017 14:52
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Honestly she's nuts in a teamfight anyway. I like her a lot. She is good.Rygar201 posted:You could just take Smash and win fights at the beacons though? Not trying to be lovely, I'm legit curious. If this were the case, I wouldn't have a complaint. These are the same idiots who will wait to use Molten Core until the first wave even though the gates are like inches apart. gently caress that. Use that poo poo the moment creeps show up to the lane IMO, it'll be back up before the first wave comes. I'm pretty sure he can harass the objective from the fort also because the range on his molten core abilities is ridiculous. signalnoise fucked around with this message at 14:54 on May 10, 2017 |
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May 10, 2017 14:52
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Rygar201 posted:You could just take Smash and win fights at the beacons though? Not trying to be lovely, I'm legit curious. Yeah I always take smash on braxis and just use it to win the objective so we never have to deal with the zerg wave in the first place.
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May 10, 2017 14:54
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I suppose I need to put some time into Sylv now that my free Xul time is over.Lemon-Lime posted:You should not do this, and turn up to objectives/teamfights instead. I did do this too. But, especially early game, and depending on the map, sometimes I would push an objective with Xul because he can clear a wave in about a second and rack up a ton of XP that the enemy team isn't getting.
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May 10, 2017 14:56
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signalnoise posted:Against a full zerg wave the amount of damage it puts out just due to how many targets there are is enormous. Sure it's not going to clear the wave by itself, but it's significant and worth doing especially because whatever lane the zerg's in is likely to also be the lane most of the enemy team is in. Oh yeah it's not a bad choice for sure - some reliable value with every cast. It's way more useful than on most other maps. I'm just saying there's a case for Sulfuras Smash, especially if you have stuns/roots/taunt to combo it with. Don't need the wave clear if you always win the beacons.
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May 10, 2017 14:56
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GaussianCopula posted:Depends, on Tower of Doom I have seen people throw games for a single bottom siege camp that does nothing anyway. Bot siege camps on Tower of Doom do an insane amount of work and you should cap them pretty much whenever they are on cooldown. It's the whole reason why bot fort is considered so much more valuable.
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May 10, 2017 14:59
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Gustav posted:I'm saying there's no way to get rid of the problem of losing games because your teammates pick lovely talents, it is inextricably linked to the talent system in general. It's not a problem that can be solved with tweaks, redesigns or changes to the matchmaking. Weird.
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May 10, 2017 14:59
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This all honestly just leads back to my primary complaint with any player I lose with. These are people who don't press their advantages, don't autoattack, don't harass, etc.. Just be active during the whole game without putting yourself in a position to get ganked and you will lead your team and yourself out of low rank placement. That's all it takes, really. Just be active. Don't be a Nova who never autoattacks even though the entire enemy team is in a different lane. Also don't be a Nova who never autoattacks during a teamfight because you are waiting to go back into stealth even though you've already hit people in that fight. On pressing the advantage, I was playing last night with some low rank goons and we cleared 4 of the enemy team on sky temple, and the only enemy still up was Lili. I just told them straight up, even though the objectives were about 10 seconds away, gently caress that poo poo we're all right here, right outside their bottom gate. PUSH. We won 2 minutes later because the resulting levels gained from clearing two forts and the resulting creep wave was too much for them to deal with. I don't have a problem with Rag taking Sulfuras Smash if they use it well and we never have to deal with Lava Wave. 9 times out of 10 in my experience that isn't what ends up happening. With that character I can generally tell how the match is going to go just by how conservative they're being when they don't need to be conservative.
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May 10, 2017 15:01
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It's been awhile since I've played Zagara but I think she's still pretty neat. People always seem to underestimate her damage, so you get Genjis who eat 6 banelings to the face trying to run up on you. I forgot how Nydus functioned before the rework but now I think it's better than Devouring Maw.
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May 10, 2017 15:09
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Remember that being a splitpusher you need to make sure you actually show up to team fights when its 5v5. The time to go split push is when your team is down bodies and can't contest an objective anyway, when your team goes up a body and the other team can't contest the objective, after a team fight when your team is down bodies and the other team is doing boss/bruiser. And you can never die, stare at your minimap and know when trouble is heading your way. By the time the other team gets to and clears your lane you can be doing damage elsewhere. Situational awareness and taking advantage of body advantages in both directions are the name of split pushing.
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May 10, 2017 15:11
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Apparently my boy Tass is the worst character in the game again. Got MVP with him twice I only just started using him, but this has been working well... hinges entirely on if they're using stealth: 1: Templar's Will. 4: Depends. Usually Light, but heal can be good with lots of AA heroes. Celerity is situational for teammates like Dehaka or Muradin. 7: Resonation, Acuity if they have stealthers. 10: Wall. 13: Nullification, Wisdom if you're actually using Oracle. 16: Phase Disruption or Focused Beam if you're on the Oracle build. 20: Prismatic Link or Shield Battery depending on how squishy your team is. Basically you try to tap people in your storms or harry/wall them in in team fights so they can't escape your bros. Nullification you save for high alpha or heavy hitters like Thrall or Li-Ming, or even Valeera or Samuro though with them you're probably better off going Oracle. Your goal is to get the nice AA and trap or catch people with the edges of your storms to slow and debuff the poo poo out of them while getting back your mana and burning away their health. The level 16 one is basically dependent on your game... if your team has damage out the rear end, take the armor debuff, if they're warrior/specialist heavy take the beam upgrade. Prismatic Link is nice because the split beams inherit all the bonuses, so you can deceptively drain down an enemy team while they're focusing on your shielded DPS/Warrior and you're hiding in the back beingan rear end in a top hat. Tass is a lot of fun.
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May 10, 2017 15:15
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