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Xander77 posted:Which is one way to summarize HPMOR "morality" in one sentence. I mean, obviously, creating a slave race is evil, but what on earth is wrong with contiuing to base the wizarding world economy on their services? They've already been created to enjoy slavery, after all. That would depend entirely on the nature of the slave race and whether or not it was actually able to exist outside of servitude. House elves can be released and live their own lives, so that's the ethical choice here, so it's a dumb example to use. If releasing house elves caused constant pain or wasting disease until they were bound to a new master or perhaps termination of service killed them outright, the ethics would get kinda murky. If house elves were a naturally occurring symbiotic species (in a magical sense), would denying them their natural state of servitude be ethical?
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# ? May 8, 2017 17:01 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:34 |
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If I recall correctly (it's been years since I read the books) Dobby was very much an exception when it came to house elves wanting or adapting to freedom. The other elf that got freed (Winky?) flew into a depressive spiral and became an alcoholic, and all of the other house elves reacted to the thought of freedom negatively. At the same time, we can look historically back and see that there were slaves and other bottom-caste people who were perfectly fine with being the lowest of the low, because that's just the way things were. We can look from the outside and say that these people's lives would have been objectively better if they weren't slaves, but they'd been conditioned to think that this is how things should be and that other ideas are wrong. We actually don't explicitly know from the text itself if house elves are naturally servile, if they were enslaved so long ago that they can't remember freedom, or if they were engineered (or bred) for their purpose. These all have different ethical implications, and I'm sure some turbonerd has written an essay thoughtfully exploring the ethics of house elves, but HPMOR is not the kind of work where you get thoughtful explorations of interesting setting details. ...Despite, you know, ostensibly being entirely about exploring the HP setting rationally.
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# ? May 8, 2017 17:22 |
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blastron posted:If I recall correctly (it's been years since I read the books) Dobby was very much an exception when it came to house elves wanting or adapting to freedom. The other elf that got freed (Winky?) flew into a depressive spiral and became an alcoholic, and all of the other house elves reacted to the thought of freedom negatively. HPMOR failed at exploring the HP setting rationally before the project started by choosing to be based on purely secondary and tertiary sources when the primary source was readily available and already heavily analyzed. It's almost as if Yud set off as a petulant child might, claiming that he could do just as good a job as those other
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# ? May 8, 2017 18:19 |
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Chapter 43: Humanism, Pt 1 Harry is trying to cast a Patronus charm under Lupin's tutelage. quote:The early gestures of the spell were complex and precise; you twitched your wand once, twice, thrice, and four times with small tilts at exactly the right relative angles, you shifted your forefinger and thumb exactly the right distances... And... Harry fails. quote:What did Anthony Goldstein have inside him that Harry didn't, that made Anthony's wand shine with that bright light? quote:"It doesn't mean we're going to be Dark Wizards," said Harry. "Lots of people who can't cast the Patronus Charm aren't Dark Wizards. Godric Gryffindor wasn't a Dark Wizard..." quote:And Helga had promised him, weeping, that when she was Headmistress she would make sure of it. quote:Harry hadn't been able to cast the Patronus Charm no matter what happy thought he tried. People hadn't seemed surprised by that, which made it even worse. Hermione hadn't been able to do it either. People had been very surprised by that, and Harry had seen her starting to get the same sidelong looks as him. The other Ravenclaws who'd failed weren't getting those looks. But Hermione was the Sunshine General, and her fans were treating it like she'd failed them, somehow, like she'd betrayed a promise she'd never made. quote:"Okay," Harry whispered. "Happier thoughts. If you do go to a full corporeal Patronus, what do you think your animal will be?" quote:Seamus Finnigan was ashen and trembling as he rejoined the students milling about on the withered and snow-spotted grass. Seamus's Patronus Charm had been successful, but there was still that interval between when the Headmaster dispelled his own Patronus and when you were supposed to cast your own, when you faced the Dementor's fear unshielded. quote:(During his reading, Harry had discovered with considerable horror that some books claimed the Dementor's Kiss would eat your soul and that this was the reason for the permanent mindless coma into which it put the victims. And that wizards who believed this had deliberately used the Dementor's Kiss to execute criminals. It was a certainty that some called criminals were innocent, and even if they weren't, destroying their souls? If Harry had believed in souls, he would have... drawn a blank, he just couldn't think of an appropriate response to that.) quote:"What did you see?" Harry asked Seamus in a low voice. quote:"As you say," Dumbledore said reluctantly. "I admit I was not expecting to lose that wager, Quirinus, but you have proven your wisdom." quote:Even after Harry had shoved the chocolate into Hermione's mouth and she'd chewed and swallowed, she was still breathing in great gasps and crying, her eyes still seemed unfocused. quote:"Professor Quirrell?" Harry said in a low voice, having come as close to the Defense Professor as he dared. "What do you see when you -" quote:Headmaster?" Harry said. "What do you see?" quote:Why am I still here? quote:There was an instant when the two forces clashed head-on, when the peaceful starlit memory held its own against the fear, even as Harry's fingers began the wand motions, practiced until they had become automatic. They weren't warm and happy, those blazing points of light in perfect blackness; but it was an image the Dementor could not easily pierce. For the silent burning stars were vast and unafraid, and to shine in the cold and darkness was their natural state. quote:"Get him chocolate!" demanded the voice of Professor Quirrell, pointlessly, because Professor Flitwick's tiny form was already cannonballing toward where the Headmaster was racing toward the students. quote:There was no time for deciding, Harry was dying. I don't have much to say about this chapter because (for goddamned once) we're actually dealing core concepts that will be somewhat explored and revisited in the future.
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# ? May 11, 2017 11:49 |
The Dementor's Kiss is not dissimilar to full frontal lobotomies which were carried out by western countries more commonly that should make us comfortable for two decades. It is incredibly messed up, but not too outside what we really did. This chapter is fine, but I am still annoyed that Harry is never bitten by his own foolishness.
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# ? May 11, 2017 12:10 |
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Xander77 posted:Chapter 43: Humanism, Pt 1 Might be that by this point all the extra characters are named for people who do fan art. Don't know how early that started. (My name's in a later chapter)
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# ? May 11, 2017 12:24 |
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Cavelcade posted:The Dementor's Kiss is not dissimilar to full frontal lobotomies which were carried out by western countries more commonly that should make us comfortable for two decades. It is incredibly messed up, but not too outside what we really did.
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# ? May 11, 2017 13:57 |
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Xander77 posted:Despite what popular culture might tell you, lobotomies were not intended to transform the patient into a drooling vegetable. (Not endorsing them) In several cases they were done intending to make vegetables out of people. quote:Dully says that when Lou Dully realized the operation didn't turn him "into a vegetable, she got me out of the house. I was made a ward of the state." Or just to make patients less troublesome.
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# ? May 11, 2017 15:34 |
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Tunicate posted:Or just to make patients less troublesome. I don't see Nurse Ratched's name there.
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# ? May 12, 2017 01:50 |
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Do dementors look different to each person in the original books, or is that a Yudkowsky change?
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# ? May 12, 2017 04:09 |
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Tiggum posted:Do dementors look different to each person in the original books, or is that a Yudkowsky change? I think that's made up, dementors look like wraith-y floating cloaks over decaying corpses, and nobody knows much more than that because if you're close enough to see details you've probably had your soul eaten. So I guess it could technically be true but the only people who know for sure are dead-ish.
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# ? May 12, 2017 04:36 |
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Seems like he's kind of combined dementors and boggarts. Also am I the only one who doesn't know what's going on half the time in this? It might just be the way Xander's cutting it up but it feels like Yud's using an intentionally obtuse writing style, and not a good one.
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# ? May 12, 2017 04:57 |
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^^^ e:fb but I have linksYggiDee posted:I think that's made up, dementors look like wraith-y floating cloaks over decaying corpses, and nobody knows much more than that because if you're close enough to see details you've probably had your soul eaten. So I guess it could technically be true but the only people who know for sure are dead-ish. The Harry Potter wikia shows its usefulness here. Yep, Dementors in the actual books are mostly what you described, with no "form of your worst fear" thing. Rather, the "form of your worst fear" thing is actually the exact description of the lowly boggart. Naturally Hariezer's deduces that his worst fear (death) just so happens to be the Actual True Essence of HPMOR's dementors, which also shapeshift to cause greater fear because Death The Abstract Concept as manifested in HPMOR's dementors also want to terrorize all of their victims for some reason. This just goes to show that most people are simply too stupid to realize that death is way scarier than you all have been brainwashed into believing, and only our beloved trueseeing hypergenius prontagonists of Hariezer and Voldkowsky grasp the real truth about death/Death.
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# ? May 12, 2017 05:19 |
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Stanfield posted:Also am I the only one who doesn't know what's going on half the time in this? It might just be the way Xander's cutting it up but it feels like Yud's using an intentionally obtuse writing style, and not a good one.
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# ? May 12, 2017 05:21 |
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I love that the main character actually failing at something is a complete anticlimax here, because Yud can't even write a scared kid believably.
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# ? May 12, 2017 07:40 |
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Xander77 posted:I'd really like you to check the link, and see if the full chapter makes anything more clear. If so, tell me which parts you thought should have been kept in for things to make sense. Cutting up a large chunk of text without omitting anything vital to understanding it is always a challenge. You usually cut scene transitions, which is fine, but when you do you really should cue them yourself. E.g.: "Next: Harry and Hermione are in the library, studying the history of the Patronus Charm in search of clues." "At Quirrell's urging, Dumbledore teleports Harry away." I've read the story before and i still found myself wondering if you'd skipped half a whole scene or something. Also, that "etc." definitely shouldn't have been there. Thinking about it, it might be less work for you just to copy paste the whole thing and keep the amount of comments you're writing the same?
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# ? May 12, 2017 08:31 |
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Xander77 posted:I'd really like you to check the link, and see if the full chapter makes anything more clear. If so, tell me which parts you thought should have been kept in for things to make sense. Cutting up a large chunk of text without omitting anything vital to understanding it is always a challenge. The only thing that really would've helped would be leaving this line in, I guess: quote:She couldn't remember it, she couldn't remember the nightmare clearly, she couldn't remember why she had thought it was possible, why she had been afraid - But honestly I think it's just Yud's writing. It's just dense enough and just bland enough that I don't really absorb all of it.
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# ? May 12, 2017 09:09 |
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NihilCredo posted:You usually cut scene transitions, which is fine, but when you do you really should cue them yourself.
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# ? May 12, 2017 09:35 |
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I like the idea that azkaban is actually a prison for the dementors, letting them feed on prisoners is something wizards do to keep them there.
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# ? May 12, 2017 11:17 |
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quote:An open question. Harry wouldn't let his mind see something false, and so he didn't see anything, like the part of his visual cortex getting that signal was just ceasing to exist. There was a blind spot under the cloak. Harry couldn't know what was under there. In a rare moment of self realization Yud discovers that he litterally cannot see things that contradict his world-view.
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# ? May 15, 2017 02:34 |
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Chapter 44: Humanism, Pt 2 Dumbledore finally manages to teleport Harry away. quote:It was only a moment, it seemed, between when Flitwick's raven had flown to elsewhere, and when Albus Dumbledore reappeared in another crack of red and golden fire with Harry in his arms; but somehow in that time Hermione had already managed to fill her hands with chocolate. quote:"He doesn't mean it, does he?" Seamus said it like he was begging. For some reason, Dumbeldore and Hermione can now communicate "by will". A form of telepathy I'm pretty sure isn't present in the HP universe, handy though it would be. quote:It is better that you not know, sent the Headmaster. Hermione has a better one: quote:There was a compulsion to chew and swallow chocolate. The response to compulsion was killing. 1. This chapter last 1134 words. Extraordinarily short, by HP standards. That's the duration to which the Harriezer being hurt or vulnerable is limited. 2. As people who already consider Harriezer to be an rear end in a top hat, we might naturally assume that his "dark side" would be a further extension of the negative aspects of his personality. Or perhaps those aspects of his personality that Yudkowsky considers to be negative, because what's even the point of exploring your heroes "dark side" otherwise? Nope. It's literally a foreign presence, a machine of sorts. Unfriendly AI (but not really)
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# ? May 18, 2017 12:44 |
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Literally more interesting than the entirety of battle school: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3809527&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 Also; more reasonable sudden betrayal.
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# ? May 21, 2017 06:37 |
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Xander77 posted:Literally more interesting than the entirety of battle school: I read that as 'battle tendencies' at first and just imagine how different this thread would be if Big Yud were doing a Jojo thing.
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# ? May 22, 2017 14:46 |
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fritz posted:I read that as 'battle tendencies' at first and just imagine how different this thread would be if Big Yud were doing a Jojo thing. He'd fall prey to Dio instantly.
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# ? May 23, 2017 21:02 |
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Look, Sheer Heart Attack has no weaknesses. There's no way in logic to defeat it.
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# ? May 29, 2017 18:23 |
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Chapter 45: Humanism, Pt 3quote:Fawkes's song gently trailed off into nothing. quote:"I don't really know how to say thank you graciously," Harry said quietly, "any more than I know how to apologize. All I can say that if you're wondering whether it was the right thing to do, it was." Place your bets. quote:Harry's eyes went back to the tall tattered cloak, almost absentmindedly, and without really being aware of what he was speaking, Harry said, "It shouldn't ought to exist." quote:Fawkes cawed a final time, mantled his wings around Harry's head, and then launched himself from Harry. Launched himself straight toward the Dementor, screaming a great piercing cry of defiance that echoed around the field. And before anyone could react to that, there was a flash of fire, and Fawkes was gone. quote:"It is good to know you are fully recovered, Mr. Potter," Professor Quirrell said firmly, as though to deny any other possibility. "Now, I believe Miss Ransom was up next?" quote:All right, Harry thought to himself, if the Dementor is a riddle, what is the answer? quote:"Headmaster," Harry said, "suppose the Ravenclaw door asked you this riddle: What lies at the center of a Dementor? What would you say?" quote:They had come very close to the Dementor's cage guarded by four Patronuses, when there came sharp intakes of breath from the three Aurors and Professor Quirrell. Everyone's faces turned to look at the Dementor, seeming to listen; there was horror on Auror Goryanof's face. quote:His wand rose into the starting position for the Patronus Charm. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 1, 2017 |
# ? Jun 1, 2017 20:39 |
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I won't comment on the stupidity since it's quite literally been beaten to death. The stupid italicised narration always got on my tits as well, constantly breaking sentences apart onto fifteen thousand lines for whatever reason. However, I wanted to draw attention to this: quote:"Hm," Harry said. "Suppose you threw it into the Sun? Would it be destroyed?" Which, unlike the majority of the jokes in the text, I actually found funny. It's your run-of-the-mill misunderstanding "would it be destroyed? nah the sun's too large. no I meant the dementor" humour, but I think it works well and the rest of the text doesn't bring attention to it unnecessarily like other times to show off "hey this is a joke you need to laugh now". Also, Fawkes doesn't die, it teleports away like the phoenix does constantly in this text. e: Also also, I don't remember if this chapter showed the shape of the patronus or not, but if it does then leaving it out is a major mistake. It's without a doubt the stupidest bit of this entire fanfic.
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# ? Jun 1, 2017 20:55 |
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Xander77 posted:JFC. It's the ghost thing all over again, only somehow even stupider. This "rationalist" ""scientist"" """investigating""" the magical world just tosses the experience of centuries or millennia of experiments aside, and decides that his stupid rear end theory is correct. And the narrative conspires to vindicate him. Actually reminds me of an ep of Farscape I just watched. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97YTQB4suso&t=28s quote:Sikozu: (stridently) You have been reduced in size! You're hardly bigger than a filima bug now! Except... except this can't be happening.
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# ? Jun 1, 2017 21:36 |
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Red Mike posted:
Good point regarding the Patronus though. Edited.
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# ? Jun 1, 2017 22:31 |
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Now that that's changed, let me just say again. His patronus being a human, that's the dumbest thing ever, tied with the two big future uses of this 'imagine the stars' bullshit combined with dementors.
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# ? Jun 1, 2017 22:46 |
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I find the Magical Anti-Death Humanism kinda endearing, but it's so utterly at odds with Yud's supposedly rational, scientific mindset that it really doesn't work. Compare and contrast with Interstellar bending the rules of science a fair bit due to the Power of Love, but how the film is literally all about how love is the most powerful thing in the universe so you can absolutely buy it.
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# ? Jun 2, 2017 00:50 |
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So how come Harry fantasising about immortality is enough to explode the dementor, but Voldemort actually taking some practical steps in that direction isn't? I guess it's a fundamental law of the hpmor setting that reading the right science fiction books gives you superpowers. The same kind of thing happened earlier, when he could do partial transfiguration because the universe decided to reward him for having a popular-science level understanding of quantum mechanics.
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# ? Jun 2, 2017 06:47 |
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Voldemort runs from death, acknowledging its inevitability. Harriezer is convinced that death is just another problem humans haven't solved yet. This isn't a superpower born of reading the right sci-fi books, it's born of being an absurdly optimistic transhumanist who believes in a gleaming, gleaming space-future that is coming ANY DAY NOW please let it be tomorrow I can feel my brain losing its elasticity as I leave my teenage years
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# ? Jun 3, 2017 17:48 |
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Chapter 46: Humanism, Pt 4quote:Harry felt... well, normal again. Sane-ish. The spell hadn't undone the day and its damage, hadn't made the injuries as if they had never been, but his hurts had been... bandaged, meliorated? It was hard to describe. I'm not sure Yud is subtle enough to make Quirrell and Dumbledore acting as one in gaslighting those poor aurors an indication of Dumby's shadier personality in HPMOR. quote:Professor Quirrell inclined his head, and then looked at Harry. "I will omit a good deal of useless incredulity," said Professor Quirrell, "remarks to the effect that Merlin himself failed to do that, et cetera. Let us go straight to asking the important question. What the sweet slithering snakes was that? " quote:Harry opened his mouth, and then, as realization hit him, rapidly snapped his mouth shut again. Godric hadn't told anyone, nor had Rowena if she'd known; there might have been any number of wizards who'd figured it out and kept their mouths shut. You couldn't forget if you knew that was what you were trying to do; once you realized how it worked, the animal form of the Patronus Charm would never work for you again - and most wizards didn't have the right upbringing to turn on Dementors and destroy them - ... Some time latter: quote:"You are exceptionally good at killing things, my student," said Professor Quirrell. quote:"But why would he?" Harry said. (Note - this is actually good writing, by HPMOR standards at least) quote:If another Dementor ever threatens you, or for that matter, slightly annoys you, just let me know and I'll introduce it to Mister Glowy Person. I don't like it when Dementors slightly annoy my friends." .... Later: quote:"Now remember," said Daphne, "don't just blurt out about the kiss as soon as we walk in, okay? It works better if we tell the whole story in order." quote:Hermione stared at the wax-sealed paper, on the surface of which was inscribed simply the number 42. Next, Minerva: quote:The boy in her office took this in without changing expression. "I would prefer not to disturb the Headmaster over this matter," Harry Potter said calmly. "I insist on not disturbing him, in fact, and you did promise that our conversation would be kept private. So let me put it this way. I know that there was, in fact, a prophecy. I know that you are the one who originally heard it from Professor Trelawney. I know that the prophecy identified the child of James and Lily as someone dangerous to the Dark Lord. And I know who I am, indeed everyone now knows who I am, so you are revealing nothing new or dangerous, if you tell me only this: What was the exact wording which identified me, the child of James and Lily?" quote:So suppose that someone whom Lord Voldemort considered a lesser ally or servant, useful but not indispensable, had begged the Dark Lord to spare Lily's life. Lily's, but not James's. quote:But if Severus had been the first to hear the prophecy, and disposed to tell it to the Dark Lord, then why would he also have told Dumbledore or Professor McGonagall? Also, the logic chain is even more tenuous than last time. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 5, 2017 |
# ? Jun 5, 2017 10:26 |
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Yudkowsky posted:The boy looked at her with strange, sorrowful eyes. "Can you not sneeze without the Headmaster's permission, Professor McGonagall? For I do promise to you that I have good reason to ask, and good reason to keep the question private."
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# ? Jun 5, 2017 13:28 |
It only seems tenuous until you realise Yudkowski's world is tiny. It feels so much smaller than Rowling's ever did, despite all his references to other parts of the world. It's very peculiar.
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# ? Jun 5, 2017 17:15 |
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I think I missed something, but Yud's writing doesn't deserve me looking at it twice so I'll just ask, and maybe someone who remembers can tell me. Why can't Harry explain what he did? What about this information is so special that he can't explain to some of the greatest wizards alive (of which Dumbledore is one) what happened?
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# ? Jun 5, 2017 23:17 |
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Prism posted:I think I missed something, but Yud's writing doesn't deserve me looking at it twice so I'll just ask, and maybe someone who remembers can tell me. quote:Godric hadn't told anyone, nor had Rowena if she'd known; there might have been any number of wizards who'd figured it out and kept their mouths shut. You couldn't forget if you knew that was what you were trying to do; once you realized how it worked, the animal form of the Patronus Charm would never work for you again - and most wizards didn't have the right upbringing to turn on Dementors and destroy them - A very rare moment of not-recklessness and maybe-those-ancient-wizards-knew-a-thing-or-two. Sure, it's totally for the sake of plot convenience ("... and then everybody destroyed all the Dementors, ~fin~"), but well, we'll take what we get.
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# ? Jun 6, 2017 00:18 |
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Yeah, I think it was because Rowena Ravenclaw and Godric Griffendor weren't able to cast a patronus, so it must be that they had discovered Harry's method but never told anyone because it made them unable to cast an animal Patronus, and if they couldn't make Harry's method work, but knew the concepts, it made it so you could no longer protect yourself from Dementors.
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# ? Jun 6, 2017 01:54 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:34 |
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Victorkm posted:Yeah, I think it was because Rowena Ravenclaw and Godric Griffendor weren't able to cast a patronus, so it must be that they had discovered Harry's method but never told anyone because it made them unable to cast an animal Patronus, and if they couldn't make Harry's method work, but knew the concepts, it made it so you could no longer protect yourself from Dementors. Or maybe that they just couldn't do it. I guess him telling Dumbledore even that much - something like 'If I tell you what this is, you might lose the ability to cast a corporeal Patronus; do you still want to know? Is that how magic even works?' - was what Quirrell stopped him from saying. Either way, even if you knew how Harry's method works but couldn't do it yourself, thus losing your animal Patronus, you'd still presumably have the ability to cast an incorporeal Patronus. You can do both, after all, since Lupin switched to using an incorporeal one to hide who he was (though if Yud didn't read the books he might not have known or remembered that). Not quite as good, but still better defenses against Dementors than most wizards get.
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# ? Jun 6, 2017 02:32 |