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Klyith posted:The thing about game design is that incredible complexity is actually easier than elegant simplicity. Starcraft is far harder to balance than Eve. And a whole lot of Eve's best complexity is free -- the market economy is very complex, but the software that runs it is not. This is v. good commentary. I've been thinking more about technical debt lately and I want to sperg but more but I'm phone posting so  but I think the fact is that CCP is still releasing new content, qol features, new systems, and the occasional architectural upgrade. Their TD is bad, but, having worked on systems encumbered by enormous amounts of TD, I don't think it's as bad as the player base likes to claim. I think part of their prowess (lol) as a developer is that they've figured out great ways to work around their debt, compartmentalize bad systems and continue to develop and release new, cool features in spite of it.
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May 11, 2017 17:46
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DisgracelandUSA posted:This is v. good commentary. From what I've heard, so much of what makes Eve tick is still tied to POS code, and the fact they're working around it while working on ways to finally excise that massive tumor is impressive. Yeah, people are going to whine about bugs and poo poo, and "WHY ARE YOU MAKING SHIPS INSTEAD OF FIXING THIS  ", but chances are those people have no idea how development works as a whole.
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May 11, 2017 19:35
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Eve definitely runs on pos code 
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May 11, 2017 19:43
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What has worse code, Eve or these dead, gay forums?
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May 11, 2017 19:48
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Reminder that you can redeem a free capsule skin for the next days. Redeeming items was moved to the login-screen, there's a bar at the bottom if you can redeem something.
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May 11, 2017 20:17
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iospace posted:From what I've heard, so much of what makes Eve tick is still tied to POS code, and the fact they're working around it while working on ways to finally excise that massive tumor is impressive. Yeah, people are going to whine about bugs and poo poo, and "WHY ARE YOU MAKING SHIPS INSTEAD OF FIXING THIS Eh, I think this quote is misattributed. What really happened was that, on a lark, CCP decided to straight up delete all the code related to the operation of POS, on a test server build, just to see what would happen. This occurred without any particular finesse or purpose; it was just a "what if" to try and get a handle on the scope of the issue. What turned out to happen was that POS use the same code as rats do to target and attack players. Since the code was used by POS, it got removed by whatever process they used. As such, rats stopped being able to attack players. The takeaway here is that POS code can't just be roughly excised from the codebase in an afternoon. A nonzero amount of analysis will be required. Certainly, it's easier (more work, but easier) to design wholly new systems, remove the POS items from the game, and leave the code that governs them in place.
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May 11, 2017 20:18
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Eh, I think this quote is misattributed. What really happened was that, on a lark, CCP decided to straight up delete all the code related to the operation of POS, on a test server build, just to see what would happen. This occurred without any particular finesse or purpose; it was just a "what if" to try and get a handle on the scope of the issue. Yeah. I forget that storage space isn't so much of a premium anymore. The downfall of being pretty much an embedded programmer for a while is you start thinking about space. Oh well. But yeah, they're addressing problems so I have hope.
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May 11, 2017 20:35
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:Eve definitely runs on pos code oops we accidentally made 20% of jfs die trying to get to highsec
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May 11, 2017 21:30
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:oops we accidentally made 20% of jfs die trying to get to highsec are these not getting posted to zkb or something because otherwise wow jf traffic sure has dropped off
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May 11, 2017 21:42
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iospace posted:What has worse code, Eve or these dead, gay forums? D-named poster's DNA.
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May 11, 2017 21:43
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the hopefully-unintentional changes to how decelerating from warp works has really hosed JFs
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May 11, 2017 21:48
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Landsknecht posted:the hopefully-unintentional changes to how decelerating from warp works has really hosed JFs Havent played in a few days. What did they gently caress up with warp deceleration?
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May 11, 2017 21:58
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:are these not getting posted to zkb or something because otherwise wow jf traffic sure has dropped off well 20% of jfs are killable by being bumped off the highsec entrance gate*
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May 12, 2017 00:52
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:well 20% of jfs are killable by being bumped off the highsec entrance gate* rl nightmares of bumping on low sec gates. I once had a 30 man frigate fleet on me when it happened but any ship that attempted tackle was blapped by gate guns. So I managed to warp to a station before they had time to get tackle cruisers.
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May 12, 2017 11:19
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Zephyrine posted:rl nightmares of bumping on low sec gates. we're going back to 2003 where everyone is gonna have insta warps right in the middle of the gate
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May 12, 2017 18:11
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Reverand maynard posted:we're going back to 2003 where everyone is gonna have insta warps right in the middle of the gate No please no.
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May 12, 2017 20:04
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Reverand maynard posted:we're going back to 2003 where everyone is gonna have insta warps right in the middle of the gate actually that is a pretty good way to convince CCP to fix it -- remind them of the bookmark hell that was "no warp to zero"
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May 12, 2017 20:36
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What is the actual issue?
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May 12, 2017 21:08
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Ynglaur posted:What is the actual issue? some change in the way warp deceleration works means that a ship with a large mass parked right on top of you can bounce you off of activation range of a gate before your client has a chance to issue the command to take the gate this makes trying to plow a JF through a gate into highsec from lowsec not a guaranteed thing
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May 12, 2017 21:20
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Could it be that the problem has the rorqual too? Normaly it works fine to warp at 2k but last time It didn't work and mostly they warp in the rock and bump.
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May 12, 2017 21:34
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You can now bump things with session change invulnerability from warp. station undocking invulnerability is still unbumpable. I haven't tested any other session changes invulnerabilities. tick 0 jf lands tick 1 jf asks to jump tick 2 ccp confirms and jumps jf So you can bump a jf on tick 1 and if you push them further than 2500 away before tick 2 from the gate they can't jump, so if the jf lands within 500 of the gate it's really unlikely but landing further than 2,000 meters has a good shot of getting the jf killed. A good 500mn navy omen bump can move a jf like 1200 m/s if timed properly which is more than enough to bump a jf 500 meters or so away from the gate in a single tick. Lots of people do the 'sit big ship on warpin point' but it's hard to account for multiple stations or jfs cynoing from citadels, it's super easy to just practice a couple dozen times on sisi and just count the ticks a jf comes to a gate and bump it perfectly with a nomen, much harder than anything other than a triaged fax can bump it. i highly recommend everyone to do it and to kill as many jfs as possible, just to give ccp more workload of having to reimburse all the crybaby petitions.
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May 13, 2017 00:34
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To be fair, "Warp to 0 and automatically jump in an uninterruptible way" is dumb. Disclaimer: Ice never flown a jump freighter.
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May 13, 2017 01:20
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Ynglaur posted:To be fair, "Warp to 0 and automatically jump in an uninterruptible way" is dumb. Disclaimer: Ice never flown a jump freighter. almost as dumb as having the option to warp to 0 if that's how you want to put it. For most gates you can make a bookmark inside the gate or off to the side such that you land at 0 and have to be bumped 5km+ just to get to 1m from the gate. You could set up such a book mark, warp to it, and mid-warp activate autopilot, and you would get similar results to what you're saying is dumb except with far more clicks and was basically the justification for even making warp to 0 instead of making everyone have bookmarks behind every gate for every possible warp path.
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May 13, 2017 01:28
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remove warping from eve online, problems solved
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May 13, 2017 01:50
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:remove eve online, problems solved
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May 13, 2017 01:51
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gwrtheyrn posted:almost as dumb as having the option to warp to 0 if that's how you want to put it. For most gates you can make a bookmark inside the gate or off to the side such that you land at 0 and have to be bumped 5km+ just to get to 1m from the gate. You could set up such a book mark, warp to it, and mid-warp activate autopilot, and you would get similar results to what you're saying is dumb except with far more clicks and was basically the justification for even making warp to 0 instead of making everyone have bookmarks behind every gate for every possible warp path. I'm not saying "make bookmark hell", but good point on how my thought logically leads to that conclusion. Perhaps something like, "You can't cyno/jump/re-warp for n seconds after completing a warp."
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May 13, 2017 02:15
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Ynglaur posted:I'm not saying "make bookmark hell", but good point on how my thought logically leads to that conclusion. Perhaps something like, "You can't cyno/jump/re-warp for n seconds after completing a warp." Just what this game needs -- more timers.
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May 13, 2017 02:26
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Just what this game needs -- more timers.  we need to add another re-enforcement stage for citadels
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May 13, 2017 02:28
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Just what this game needs -- more timers. Fair point.
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May 13, 2017 03:05
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The only people bitching about how hard it is to kill jfs are people who's entire in game purpose is to kill jfs. It's not really a big deal.
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May 13, 2017 03:23
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an eve without JFs would be pretty funny we'd all be flying T1 ships and wars would be decided by who had the best local industry the best local industry, of course, being decided by how many titans you have for bridging freighters around
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May 13, 2017 03:31
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CainFortea posted:The only people bitching about how hard it is to kill jfs are people who's entire in game purpose is to kill jfs. It's not really a big deal. the only way to kill jfs is to rely on a bug ccp just put into the game, or by ganking them in highsec and requiring them to NOT have an outcyno, NOT to go through .5s/.6s and to NOT be tanked. there are far too many ways to not get killed, and there is no way to either kill jfs or stop them from doing their job, which is really bad gameplay (doing any activity with impunity with a huge/important impact without being able to be stopped is pretty bad)
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May 13, 2017 03:37
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You forgot the classic "cyno a nyx onto them in lowsec"
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May 13, 2017 03:40
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gwrtheyrn posted:You forgot the classic "cyno a nyx onto them in lowsec" this requires them to be not tanked, stupid, AND afk.
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May 13, 2017 03:41
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grr jf hat jf
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May 13, 2017 04:01
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level 5 missions, though, those are fine
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May 13, 2017 04:01
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:an eve without JFs would be pretty funny I realy like this Idea.
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May 13, 2017 04:04
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:the only way to kill jfs is to rely on a bug ccp just put into the game, or by ganking them in highsec and requiring them to NOT have an outcyno, NOT to go through .5s/.6s and to NOT be tanked. Even in a 0.5/0.6 if they are paying attention unless you are ready to go its still incredibly difficult, I legit have no idea how people could get caught if not for stupidity. Speaking of which, recently found out that things being shot by facpo for standings, not sec don't get pointed (at least not in 0.5) which was poo poo to discover, thought I was going to get a free JF kill
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May 13, 2017 04:10
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:level 5 missions, though, those are fine it's not even on a comparable level, you can stop people from running level 5 missions easily (it's not that jfs are unkillable, they can 100% do their job while remaining unkillable) also it's 2017 level 5s blow for income working mom posted:Even in a 0.5/0.6 if they are paying attention unless you are ready to go its still incredibly difficult, I legit have no idea how people could get caught if not for stupidity. Speaking of which, recently found out that things being shot by facpo for standings, not sec don't get pointed (at least not in 0.5) which was poo poo to discover, thought I was going to get a free JF kill yeah you just keep them bumped and the popo will kill em
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May 13, 2017 05:21
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:yeah you just keep them bumped and the popo will kill em Thats the thing though, he was positive sec so it must've been standings that were why he was getting shot, but they only webbed and shot him as he managed to jump out sadly, had I known I'd have just ganked him 
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May 13, 2017 05:24
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