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Fojar38 posted:China has been economically stagnant since about 2013 and is fast-tracking its way to irrelevance in the global economy. Here's a good post about urban planning in china and how the government still practices Really Existing Socialist style policies to try to evenly distribute urban growth throughout the country and to keep a sizeable rural population https://andrewbatson.com/2017/05/11/friedrich-engels-is-still-shaping-chinese-cities-120-years-after-his-death/ From a world bank report quote:In an economic sense, these administrative barriers work like an expensive tax on migration; based on current productivity differences between agriculture and urban occupations in industry or services, every 1 percent more migration from rural to urban areas would yield 1.2 percent more GDP. At the current level of mechanization, agricultural surplus labor is estimated to be 105 million people, and this could increase as China’s agricultural modernization accelerates. If China’s migration rates had matched those of Korea’s in the past, China’s economy would be nearly 25 percent larger today.  R. Guyovich posted:imperialism being a specific stage of capitalism and not "a government doing things" goes all the way back to lenin and has plenty of theoretical backing. that definition clashing with a more broad use of the term doesn't make it an incorrect framework It goes to John Hobson, Lenin came later https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism_(Hobson) And anyways it fails as an empirical theory. European colonies did not make their home countries any money, and in the case of Britain they didn't even practice exclusivist trade policy, IE other Euro countries were granted the same tariff-free access to colonial markets that Britain was. Imperialism happened for other reasons, much like racism is not solely or even mostly a product of economic forces Here's a good blog post on this and other topics https://pseudoerasmus.com/2016/05/08/bm/ icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 19:06 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 18:55
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icantfindaname posted:Here's a good post about urban planning in china and how the government still practices Really Existing Socialist style policies to try to evenly distribute urban growth throughout the country and to keep a sizeable rural population Counterpoint: the urban/rural hukou split is actually pretty bad and basically has created a quasi caste system.
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May 13, 2017 19:06
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icantfindaname posted:Here's a good post about urban planning in china and how the government still practices Really Existing Socialist style policies to try to evenly distribute urban growth throughout the country and to keep a sizeable rural population Is this being portrayed as a good thing or a bad thing?
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May 13, 2017 19:07
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stone cold posted:Counterpoint: the urban/rural hukou split is actually pretty bad and basically has created a quasi caste system. That's exactly what that post is saying. The hukou exists in order to facilitate that kind of socialist planning. Just letting anyone who wants to move to Beijing or Shanghai do so is what the World Bank recommends instead. Chinese planners instead have Soviet-era ideas about the proper balance between large cities, small cities and the countryside Raenir Salazar posted:Is this being portrayed as a good thing or a bad thing? Bad, hence the observation that China would be 25% richer had it not done this
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May 13, 2017 19:07
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icantfindaname posted:That's exactly what that post is saying. The hukou exists in order to facilitate that kind of socialist planning. Just letting anyone who wants to move to Beijing or Shanghai do so is what the World Bank recommends instead. Chinese planners instead have Soviet-era ideas about the proper balance between large cities, small cities and the countryside Oic, I read the Batson and it didn't really seem all that condemning in terms of tone. 
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May 13, 2017 19:17
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Would it even really be feasible to have that magnitude of..I guess you could call it a 'people-rush' to urban areas? It's one thing to take theory that the GDP would be that much larger if things had been unrestrained, but how in the world could they manage that magnitude of migration...I mean the numbers would be staggering.
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May 13, 2017 19:17
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TyroneGoldstein posted:Would it even really be feasible to have that magnitude of..I guess you could call it a 'people-rush' to urban areas? It's one thing to take theory that the GDP would be that much larger if things had been unrestrained, but how in the world could they manage that magnitude of migration...I mean the numbers would be staggering. I have this same feeling, it feels like to me that "25% larger" GDP abstracts away and hides probably who knows how much additional resource consumption, environmental degradation, urban sprawl, and so on beneath the surface. GDP growth doesn't have to be the be all end all.
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May 13, 2017 19:22
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TyroneGoldstein posted:Would it even really be feasible to have that magnitude of..I guess you could call it a 'people-rush' to urban areas? It's one thing to take theory that the GDP would be that much larger if things had been unrestrained, but how in the world could they manage that magnitude of migration...I mean the numbers would be staggering. There's already a ton of rural hukou people living in the cities illegally. Like at least 200 million as of 2010. Also, it's real bad. quote:Life for a city dweller with a rural hukou is difficult. Their hukou denies them urban welfare and access to public housing. It also excludes them from publicly funded health-insurance schemes. Since fewer than 3 percent can afford health insurance, most avoid medical care altogether. City judges often impose harsher sentences on rural migrants, and employers frequently withhold wages, knowing undocumented workers cannot complain to police without risking exposure.
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May 13, 2017 19:23
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stone cold posted:Oic, I read the Batson and it didn't really seem all that condemning in terms of tone. Well it is a historical study into the origins of the policy I do get a sort of smug neoliberal-elite "obviously socialism can never work, i know this but the chinese don't"
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May 13, 2017 19:24
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stone cold posted:ok so are we pretending that xinjiang and tibet aren't exercises in imperialism Obviously not, or rather he was asserting that 'imperialism' per se can be defined in a specific technical sense as outlined by Lenin which would not include events like the Qing occupation and conquest of Tibet, even if they conform with the conventional or popular understanding of the word imperialism. Personally I think the late 19th early 20th century attempts to discretize these sorts of political phenomena were kind of pointless and didn't usually add much to our understanding of events, but putting that aside, trying to convey that sort of nuance in a public forum is an utterly hopeless effort as people read the words "theoretical" or"framework" and instantly shut off their brains and default to the worst possible assumptions regardless of how ridiculous it is to assume Guyovitch is trying to say imperialism is actually really good.
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May 13, 2017 19:28
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Squalid posted:Obviously not, or rather he was asserting that 'imperialism' per se can be defined in a specific technical sense as outlined by Lenin which would not include events like the Qing occupation and conquest of Tibet, even if they conform with the conventional or popular understanding of the word imperialism. The current occupation of Xinjiang is one absolutely motivated by economic exploitation though given the oil and natural gas reserves.... Like, really? e: It just seems like it's a pretty clear cut case of core exploiting the periphery e2: oh wait you're the "let's dissect historical pedophilia" guy lmao stone cold fucked around with this message at 20:04 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 20:01
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stone cold posted:Oic, I read the Batson and it didn't really seem all that condemning in terms of tone. Your tone deafness appears to be a reoccurring theme
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May 13, 2017 20:12
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Ardennes posted:Also, China is far from irreverent to the world economy and it doesn't take a Han nationalist to see that. China obviously reached the end of its burst phase of industrial development, right now it is probably most comparable to the Soviet Union sometime in late 1960s/early 1970s. Admittedly, an advantage the Chinese have it their not tied to a single commodity like the Soviets were (oil). It's not irrelevant yet but its irrelevance has been increasing as more and more barriers are erected by the CCP. Case in point: The stock market crashed again last week but nobody outside of China cared
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May 13, 2017 20:24
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Fojar38 posted:It's not irrelevant yet but its irrelevance has been increasing as more and more barriers are erected by the CCP. Case in point: The stock market crashed again last week but nobody outside of China cared I take more as Chinese stock markets not being creditable (and not being well connected to international finance) than the Chinese economy itself being irrelevant.
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May 14, 2017 11:36
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Smart Chinese would be putting their money in a 2nd apartment to avoid depreciation.
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May 14, 2017 16:09
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Hi all, sorry to crash the thread. I must wondered what everyone thinks about the Chinese colonizing America's next door neighbours, i.e. the Caribbean. Phone posting, but Google the Bahamar debacle in the Bahamas and the Pearl of the Caribbean fight currently going on in Saint Lucia (my country) for an idea of what the Chinese are up to. Why are they here? Is it just to give their state construction company more stuff to build? Is it to keep a closer eye on the US? I'm trying to fight the project at home but need to understand the motivation behind this.
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May 14, 2017 17:34
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wyldhoney posted:Hi all, sorry to crash the thread. Americans are largely oblivious to whatever China is doing abroad, however I would guess your project is part of the "One belt, one road" plan to increase China's influence around the world. The NYtimes had an article about it the other day. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/business/china-railway-one-belt-one-road-1-trillion-plan.html Basically they want to increase influence, give more work to Chinese companies, and increase economic access to foreign markets by improving transportation infrastructure. It's really more of an extension of long term campaign of building stuff in foreign countries, six years ago they built a stadium in Costa Rica and there was lots of speculation regarding what the quid pro quo behind that project was, I heard it was for fishing rights but that might have been bs
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May 14, 2017 17:48
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wyldhoney posted:Why are they here? Is it just to give their state construction company more stuff to build? Yes. The CCP is scared to death of unemployment and are highly active in seeking out even marginal investment opportunities. They're also chasing growth, all of which leads them to be highly tolerant of high-risk high growth types of investments, which definitely includes infrastructure in the Caribbean. They're also hugely into Africa for the same reason. To the guy who said it's part of OBOR, that's a specifically Asian project with the strategic purpose of reducing their dependence on maritime shipping. It doesn't apply to the Caribbean, since it's focused on building land transport links.
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May 14, 2017 18:05
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TyroneGoldstein posted:Would it even really be feasible to have that magnitude of..I guess you could call it a 'people-rush' to urban areas? It's one thing to take theory that the GDP would be that much larger if things had been unrestrained, but how in the world could they manage that magnitude of migration...I mean the numbers would be staggering. It's what happens in India, which has good and bad effects. It's great for the affluent since more labour competition = cheaper wages, but it also puts a massive strain on city infrastructure and government services. The effective result is that the urban poor get debt bondage instead of bureaucratic control over where they can go.
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May 14, 2017 18:40
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China has already monopolized light consumer products production and export. The next obvious step up is infrastructure building export to non western countries (and UK.) China will bribe their ways into every infrastructure project they can put their hands on to use the over supplied production capacity.
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May 14, 2017 20:36
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Squalid posted:Americans are largely oblivious to whatever China is doing abroad, however I would guess your project is part of the "One belt, one road" plan to increase China's influence around the world. The NYtimes had an article about it the other day. OBOR isn't supposed to extend to the Americas so it wouldn't really be part of that. More likely it's a combination of Chinese firms and individuals trying to acquire non-Chinese assets because the Chinese economy is bad and the general strategy of "Export useless infrastructure projects to keep the state owned industrial giants running."
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May 14, 2017 21:10
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Chinese firms are building these two projects, both of which are pretty badass. I left right before the first section of rail opened, would have been cool to take. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagos%E2%80%93Kano_Standard_Gauge_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagos_Rail_Mass_Transit
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May 15, 2017 05:51
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wyldhoney posted:Hi all, sorry to crash the thread. They're trying to decrease their current crippling dependency on the US and the EU so that they can transition into being the independent superpower that they already view themselves as. In Asia this is a rugged battle as everyone knows they're in a tug-of-war between China, India, Japan and the US but with Central America, South Africa and Africa there is less local resistance. Everyone already hates the US thanks to supranational institutions and there's huge need for capital.
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May 15, 2017 10:56
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MiddleOne posted:They're trying to decrease their current crippling dependency on the US and the EU so that they can transition into being the independent superpower that they already view themselves as. In Asia this is a rugged battle as everyone knows they're in a tug-of-war between China, India, Japan and the US but with Central America, South Africa and Africa there is less local resistance. Everyone already hates the US thanks to supranational institutions and there's huge need for capital. Propaganda and naive western editorials treat China as an independent superpower or whatever but all it is is a colossal export economy. Reducing their dependency on the US and the EU would require that China basically become a completely different country with a completely different economy and building white elephants in South America isn't going to change that. The CCP is terrified of losing access to the US or EU's markets because at that point it's game over and they know it.
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May 15, 2017 20:10
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Fojar38 posted:The CCP is terrified of losing access to the US or EU's markets because at that point it's game over and they know it. That's why I voted for Trump
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May 15, 2017 20:12
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OXBALLS DOT COM posted:That's why I voted for Trump I don't think it was necessary to vote for Trump for this. The West has already absorbed all the Chinese exports that it can and the willingness and capability to continue to do so is waning even without Trump. That said I'll admit that it was fun to watch the CCP's barely contained panic in the wake of Trump's election.
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May 15, 2017 20:16
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I think they've calmed down since realising Trump's an idiot who really doesn't understand how global economics works. Now they just need to worry about how to describe trade deals that greatly benefit China in terms that sound positive for the US (such as equal taxation for imports for finished consumer products or similar) and convince Trump that trade deals with other multilateral trade deals are a bad idea and the US is totally getting used by all these other Asian nations that pretend to be their allies and should just get out of the whole hemisphere.
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May 15, 2017 20:25
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OXBALLS DOT COM posted:That's why I voted for Trump lmao gj idiot you done hosed up you irredeemable racist
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May 15, 2017 23:37
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Chinese markets went buttfuck when they found out Trump won. They knew he was the only candidate who would actually slash the TPP.
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May 16, 2017 04:08
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The Kingfish posted:Chinese markets went buttfuck when they found out Trump won. They knew he was the only candidate who would actually slash the TPP.
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May 16, 2017 04:29
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The Kingfish posted:Chinese markets went buttfuck when they found out Trump won. They knew he was the only candidate who would actually slash the TPP. Slashing the TPP was good for China though?
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May 16, 2017 14:19
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Yeah are we living in opposite world here?
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May 16, 2017 15:03
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Buttfuck excited. Chinese markets were ecstatic.
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May 16, 2017 18:03
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The Kingfish posted:Chinese markets went buttfuck when they found out Trump won. They knew he was the only candidate who would actually slash the TPP. Can you name the three most populous TPP signatories without a google search? Just curious
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May 16, 2017 18:08
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Canada, CANADA, CANADA
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May 16, 2017 18:46
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Thanks for the update folks. So I guess hoping that this project just implodes due to the usual banana republic incompetence of my local politicians is futile. I'll have to lace up my protest boots. Ugh. I'm no fan of the US but Chinese neo-colonialism seems like it might be worse.
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May 16, 2017 18:51
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wyldhoney posted:Thanks for the update folks. the united states has destabilized the caribbean, overthrown governments there and stunted development for decades but the chinese might send tourists. may god have mercy on us all
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May 16, 2017 20:16
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R. Guyovich posted:the united states has destabilized the caribbean, overthrown governments there and stunted development for decades but the chinese might send tourists. may god have mercy on us all Comedy set aside, Africa is a good indication that China is no less predatory then any other neo-colonialist power. It's the same game of weapons/investments in exchange for national resources that it has always been.
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May 16, 2017 20:20
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To be fair, at this point it doesn't seem like China is exercising the same influence on domestic politics that the US used to. That may change in the future but at the moment they're basically just running jobs programs for chinese construction workers in third world countries, not having the Chinese-CIA fund death squads to murder anyone who ever said a bad thing about the 5000 year reich
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May 16, 2017 20:24
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MiddleOne posted:Comedy set aside, Africa is a good indication that China is no less predatory then any other neo-colonialist power. It's the same game of weapons/investments in exchange for national resources that it has always been. is it.
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May 16, 2017 20:28
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