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Zootopia can't and wasn't trying to be a perfect allegory, because the only perfect allegory is just nonfiction. It's obvious most people got the message.
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May 14, 2017 00:58
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K. Waste posted:See, the whole point of bringing up that Bunny Cop has 'biotruths' prejudice is to undermine it later on, where she learns off-handedly through exposition that 'prey' are also 'biologically predisposed' to savagery. The whole night-howler/A Scanner Darkly angle is actually one of the few really juicy parts of the movie, and it's a shame that it's merely chalked up to exposition. Rather than choosing the path of least resistance, in which the entire historical mythology of the film's opening is false, the filmmakers chose a slightly more resistant angle in which Bunny Cop's parents just conveniently failed to educate her in her culture's own 'savage' history (maybe involving poo poo like infant cannibalism, warren territoriality, whatever). I can buy this read. Honestly I wish it was explored more because there was clearly room for an interpretation that leaned into it and truly undercut the biotruths narrative rather than the resolution we got where it was just a case of discovering the culprit, but yeah, expecting depth in a kids movie allegory.
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May 14, 2017 01:07
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Pick posted:Zootopia can't and wasn't trying to be a perfect allegory, because the only perfect allegory is just nonfiction. It's obvious most people got the message. Nobody has written anything about perfection, except for Zootopia fans.
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May 14, 2017 01:27
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I just finished watching Over the Garden Wall. It was beautiful.I loved the Betty Boop-esque chapter in the creepy tavern. Can someone enlighten me in which other animations the series were referencing? I know the one with Auntie Whispers chapter had to totally do with Hayao Miyazaki's work.
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May 14, 2017 01:36
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K. Waste posted:Nobody has written anything about perfection, except for Zootopia fans. Haha. That's not entirely true. Non-zootopia fans have mentioned how it is an incomplete or otherwise imperfect allegory, in a slightly pejorative sense at times. That's usually the start of such discussions, at least.
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May 14, 2017 01:38
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Pick posted:Zootopia can't and wasn't trying to be a perfect allegory, because the only perfect allegory is just nonfiction. It's obvious most people got the message. Zootopia is nonfiction 
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May 14, 2017 02:05
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CRINDY posted:
You say that, but Zootopia was orignally going to be far more critical and darker in tone but Lasseter just nixed it entirely because he didn't want kids to hate the city itself. So nothing was allowed to portray the city as an institution in a negative light. There's a good liberalism joke in there somewhere, I'm sure. But that said, I'd trust individual story tellers to have a distinct story vision that might even be a bit interesting or at least daring as opposed to any story by committee. I mean those comics aren't good most likely but I really wouldn't trust disney to be able to tell a story with any teeth to it at all. Even if they could, the higher ups would just nix it because that's simply not their goal as a company. You want the empty platitudes that appease as many as possible without anything substantial that might push some people away. That said, for what it sets out to be its okay. But yeah it's definitely possible that a single creator could take the source material and make something more interesting with it. The bar has hardly been set very high. But having so many hands in the pot is definitely a detriment, especially when the people behind the project have to answer to someone like Lasseter in the end.
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May 14, 2017 02:09
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Drifter posted:Haha. That's not entirely true. Non-zootopia fans have mentioned how it is an incomplete or otherwise imperfect allegory, in a slightly pejorative sense at times. That's usually the start of such discussions, at least. This is incorrect. Oppositional readings of Zootopia are not concerned with the apparent 'perfection' of the allegory, but with taking the allegory at face value, and then actually interpreting its rhetorical function. The introduction that this is somehow about 'imperfection' is a misreading by Zootopia fans, and a misdirection from actually having to talk about the film. I have charged that Zootopia is mediocre, and in response (and not for the first time), Pick has misdirected from this charge by claiming that the message of the film is obvious. But this is not actually a contradiction of anything I have written. I agree that 'the message' of Zootopia is obvious.
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May 14, 2017 02:28
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Life, too, is mediocre
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May 14, 2017 02:30
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CRINDY posted:As for the Zootopia fan comics, Zootopia itself barely managed to stick the landing for what it was trying to say, and that was the work of dozens of career writers and animators working together with one purpose. I don't want to see what some furries with little storytelling experience and blatantly obvious wishes to gently caress the fox came up with working with those same guidelines. Nick is great but it's all about dem sexy tigers at the end. I call 'em glitter tiggers. There are some artists who have legit awful writing when it comes to telling a story, but they usually get buried by the really good ones. Zistopia and MisterMead's work are truly excellent in particular. TGWeaver has a more mature take on the matter with much more adult humor and has even started up a really great story series based on this comic he/she drew about a somewhat privileged sheep who finds himself living as the only prey mammal in a ghetto neighborhood filled with predators. Seriously, there are real gems out there if you care to look. Here are some shorter ones:    Here's one based on the Zistopia story arc.   This artist's done a whole series of comics like this (just pages 1-3 here):    I'll admit it. I'm still nuts for Zootopia.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2017 02:31
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Also, slightly hidden Bucky & Pronk chillaxing at the Mystic Springs oasis:
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May 14, 2017 02:35
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Ruh roh
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May 14, 2017 03:07
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ShadowCatboy posted:I'll admit it. I'm still nuts for Zootopia. Like, I really like Zootopia. I happily added into one of my lesson plans last year as a way to introduce Intersectionality and discuss things like privilege and race in a soft and simple way for highschoolers. Both my observing teacher and classroom instruction teacher loved it. I got a great score on the lesson plan. Its great and lord knows I've watched it enough times since then. That said, do we really need sexy time Zootopia or dark, gritty dead character Zootopia? Its so bafflingly to me that everyone just wants to take the material into "adult" areas that feels so out of place. It was a fun city with really fun characters that grow in smart ways with a good message while still admittedly the entire concept its tackling is complex. I love the gay couple neighbors don't get me wrong, but jesus, lets keep it PG. Its better for the story or any story worth telling with its inevitable sequel. edit: lol probation but ya know. Crazy Ferret fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 03:13
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On the one hand, I think it's silly to say that only the creators are allowed to make a sequel to a story. On the other hand, I'd rather look for it myself than have it shoved in my face. And honestly the only fan fiction I've ever seen that could be considered as good as the source material is that one Avatar fan comic I read ages ago... and that was made by one of the show's creator's, anyway.
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May 14, 2017 03:26
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Hedrigall posted:Life, too, is mediocre It's a fair cop.
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May 14, 2017 03:32
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Crazy Ferret posted:edit: lol probation but ya know. Some people just don't know how to show restraint 
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May 14, 2017 03:40
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Hedrigall posted:Some people just don't know how to show restraint If only they had a kind of shock collar... Perhaps there is a story there... SatansBestBuddy posted:On the one hand, I think it's silly to say that only the creators are allowed to make a sequel to a story. Yeah, I don't mean to suggest that. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people that could tell a good story in the Zootopia universe. I just push against this trend, especially from the furry fandom per say, to take everything in either a grim or "sexy" direction for no other reason than to make it adult for adult's sake. It strikes me as just short sighted.
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May 14, 2017 03:50
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The problem with pushing these allegories to dark places is kids movies inherently need a bit of naïveté about their concept. Lion King, Finding Nemo, etc, all of them fall down if you look at them without a naive ideal of the way these worlds work their story can't function. So when you drop 'mature' themes in them the naïveté just becomes a whole lot more thread bare and, at least in my opinion, less mature than the story they started from. Allegories aren't necessarily strengthened by more detail, they may in fact be undermined because it leaves less room for interpretation and discussion.
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May 14, 2017 04:30
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To be somewhat fair to the Dark and GrittyTM dystopia comic, it comes from less of a place of "Let's take this kid's movie and make it dark and gritty," and more "What kind of story could you actually make around the original shock collar concept," which itself was incredibly dark (Which is why they ended up going with something else  ).(I will say that I read it since I had some time to kill, and by my low webcomic standards, it was alright. Not great, certainly cringey in places, but it could have certainly been worse.)
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May 14, 2017 05:12
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Hedrigall posted:I want an animated movie about the artistic journey you went on to write this post Aww thank you!!!  There is a lot more ground to cover but it'll have to wait until tomorrow because I am tired. Also, Zootopia chat. LeJackal fucked around with this message at 06:00 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 05:14
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It's why poo poo like Pokemon Uranium, or 'Thomas the Tank Engine is a Fascist Hellhole' fan theories infuriate them. There's nothing wrong with exploring the possibly darker edge of base concepts (Everyone in the world is carrying physical gods that enjoy fighting - so what keeps one psycho from going nuts with it?, Sapient machines relying on the mercy of their creators), but they're never done with nuance or thought, it's always with a veneer of 'see, this really isn't childish, it's mature and deep and I'm a perfectly grown up adult person and not a manchild for liking this'
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May 14, 2017 05:45
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Maluco Marinero posted:I dunno if you could even say stick the landing if you really look at the allegory. Like, if you're gonna make something about unfounded bigotry, why put literal bio truths in the text of your allegory. Like I'm willing to be debated out of this position cause a lot of people like it, but I really can't get past the fact that predators are cast into the role they are in an allegory about bigotry. Well firstly the 'biotruths' in the film is more of an allegory for history than anything else. Secondly the film is making the bolder point: the reason why racism is bad is not that people of different ethnic origins are inherently equal, but because we want to build a society where that is the case. That *even if* this stuff is true, discrimination is wrong. I think this is actually an important point to make. Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:09 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 11:02
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Every time people start posting in here about Zootopia/Zootropolis, I think of that drat meme.
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May 14, 2017 12:06
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My concern is the exact opposite: children have a much greater capacity for understanding unpleasant truths, and especially injustice, than we give them credit for.
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May 14, 2017 12:30
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Who the gently caress mentioned there's an art book for over the garden wall, I'll kill you, you just cost me 50 quid
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May 14, 2017 14:03
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Robindaybird posted:It's why poo poo like Pokemon Uranium, or 'Thomas the Tank Engine is a Fascist Hellhole' fan theories infuriate them. There's nothing wrong with exploring the possibly darker edge of base concepts (Everyone in the world is carrying physical gods that enjoy fighting - so what keeps one psycho from going nuts with it?, Sapient machines relying on the mercy of their creators), but they're never done with nuance or thought, it's always with a veneer of 'see, this really isn't childish, it's mature and deep and I'm a perfectly grown up adult person and not a manchild for liking this' Might I recommend The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing?
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May 14, 2017 15:12
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Okay, Animal Crossing is terrible though.
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May 14, 2017 18:31
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Robindaybird posted:It's why poo poo like Pokemon Uranium, or 'Thomas the Tank Engine is a Fascist Hellhole' fan theories infuriate them. There's nothing wrong with exploring the possibly darker edge of base concepts (Everyone in the world is carrying physical gods that enjoy fighting - so what keeps one psycho from going nuts with it?, Sapient machines relying on the mercy of their creators), but they're never done with nuance or thought, it's always with a veneer of 'see, this really isn't childish, it's mature and deep and I'm a perfectly grown up adult person and not a manchild for liking this' Personally, I always attributed this to inexperience on the authors part more than anything. These kind of stories can be done, and done well, I've seen it happen, but only ever from authors with years worth of mediocre to bad stories filling out their portfolio. Nobody just starts typing their perfect story out of the gate, it takes a long time and many failures to get to that point, and we get the joy of reading those failures in the form of "hey, like, what if Zootopia actually did have shock collars, wouldn't that be kinda hosed up?"
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May 14, 2017 18:42
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May 14, 2017 21:08
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What the gently caress just happened to this thread? Here, have some animation ya jerks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRDeBnHJcwA
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May 14, 2017 22:09
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Never do shrooms on Small World After All
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May 14, 2017 22:17
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Bimmi posted:What the gently caress just happened to this thread? Is anybody, like, actually excited for this addition to Animal Kingdom?
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May 14, 2017 23:36
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I appreciate Zootopia a lot less after CERTAIN EVENTS in the last year and change since it came out. but it's interesting because of what it dances around and refuses to touch, more interesting at least than the films that don't touch it at all. Like, a lot of PIXAR films assiduously avoid anything really dangerous. Zootopia pokes its head in the direction of something really incendiary, then backs out of it.
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May 14, 2017 23:48
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Waffleman_ posted:Is anybody, like, actually excited for this addition to Animal Kingdom? I'm one of the weirdos who doesn't care about the pretty derivative plot and just really loves Avatar, sorry. I could watch that movie every weekend for years 
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May 14, 2017 23:57
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I also think the "nobody liked Avatar and it was the worst movie ever and who even wants these sequels???" meme is one of the most overblown on the internet Like any time anything is mentioned about Avatar sequels or theme parks these days it leads to a whole bunch of looking around going "But that movie was terrible, ri--right guys?" and looking each other in the eyes to confirm that yes, it is still chic to diss on Avatar Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 23:59
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Anxious nerds constantly checking and rechecking what their opinion is meant to be this week so that the popular zeitgeist doesn't move on without them
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May 15, 2017 00:05
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avatar is a bad movie with groundbreaking visual effects i'm sorry this gives you ulcers
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May 15, 2017 00:10
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Hedrigall posted:I also think the "nobody liked Avatar and it was the worst movie ever and who even wants these sequels???" meme is one of the most overblown on the internet I have never seen it.
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May 15, 2017 00:14
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I had never previously realised that Disney owns Avatar.
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May 15, 2017 00:15
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LeJackal posted:I have never seen it. Not many dogges but plenty of catte people, you might like it if you give it a shot 
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May 15, 2017 00:15
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