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Triskelli posted:Big thing to know about Scythe is that for a game about giant robots there's very little fighting. Which is nicely thematic, the game is set in an alt-1920s where we invented mechs instead of tanks, and you're supposed to be a small group encroaching on a failing country rather than a whole nation refighting the Great War. That final point though, I think speaks to the weird thing with Scythe, where it sort of subverts the typical expectations of that kind of a game. Like you say, there's only really one attack per player per game, maybe two, its very much a farming game with a looming threat of violence, rather than a wargame, and the rulebook actually has tooltips to point this out, because at face value you're expecting lots of combat. Similarly, when we were playing one time, one of the players got really despondent, "Aw man, he can just come and attack me at any time and I can't win the combat, this team feels really bad". But I had to ask "So what?". And obviously he says "I can't do anything about it, it just feels really unfair" and normally that would be a totally legitimate gripe. But in this case, there would be essentially no benefit to the player attacking him, plus they would lose popularity, PLUS there would be incredibly minimal negative effect to him for losing the combat. So, while you're right, you do get a sudden explosive threat of combat, combat is usually a Pyrrhic victory at best or actively beneficial to the defender at worst. To be in a position where you DEFINITELY win a combat takes some setting up, and so really you've earned that star in as much a way as someone who set up the engine to buy all their upgrades / workers / etc. If its a normal combat (as in, you're both potentially within cards + power of beating each other) then being able to suddenly engage from a million miles away, might just mean you're suddenly able to gift someone else a star if you lose? The way that I see it, the game breaks down into three phases. The first phase is everyone setting up their initial engine, planning where workers should be to start enacting the plan they're going for, sending out their character for events and possibly the factory, and honestly mostly playing by themselves. This lasts until most players have a few mechs. Once a few people have mechs, it means they get enough benefits that they can start 'going for stars'. This can be through combat or putting buildings in places that will get them bonus victory condition scores etc etc, but there's a tonal shift from the start where everyone is only looking at their own stuff and their own home territory, to actively trying to get stars on the board and they start looking across the board, at where other players are, who's going for the same thing they are etc. This is most of the game, and during this phase, what I was saying about combat above applies. The final phase is the endgame, where a few players can potentially get their final star. At this point, the shift changes from long term plans to doing things like aggressively taking territories, forcing combats for additional stars, and trying to dick people over to stop them scoring. At this point, being able to strike anywhere is really crucial, because you can potentially disrupt stuff miles away from you right before the game ends. What I would say though, is that because this is so late on, by now everyone should have the same capabilities, and again, if someone has prepared for this situation by investing in combat cards and power, then they really deserve to be able to. It becomes difficult because people get defensive tech upgrades from their mechs, which they will have just incidentally picked up. /Edit: What I'm saying is, if combat was themed differently, like if instead of Mechs you had 'Bards' and they could make enemy bards nostalgic for their homeland at the cost of 'Musical Prowess', but the opponents Bard could outplay you and make YOU nostalgic for your homeland, being able to 'Suddenly BARD someone from right across the table' wouldn't feel oppressive or unfair, it would just feel like the mechanics of how 'BARDING' works. I think. !Klams fucked around with this message at 16:15 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 16:00
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Aston posted:I played Orleans for the first time yesterday and really enjoyed it, but we ran into some trouble in the last round - when each player's actions depend on what each other player is doing, how do you resolve it? The rulebook says that you can ask people higher in the player order to lock in actions but we couldn't tell whether that meant locking in one worker at a time, locking in one action at a time or locking in all actions. In the end we played it that each player had to complete an action in turn order but this made the end really drag out. Overall I think that the player first in turn order should have to lock in all their actions, then second then third, but as I was last in turn order for that round and would get the benefit I didn't want to push that too hard. Your gear question has been correctly answered already. Also remember there's only one of those allowed per action. If you want to get strict about turn order, it works like this. First, in turn order, people lock in their entire action selection. Then, in turn order, everyone performs one action at a time. If you have multiple characters on the town hall/powder tower, one action can transfer any number of them. It doesn't have to be all at once if you're worried about setting someone up to complete a deed.
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May 15, 2017 16:02
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I like Scythe. I like the art especially, but the core of the game being an engine building game really appeals to me. I've only played up to 4 players and it felt tense and claustrophobic. It makes me want to get a 7 player game going and see what the cramped space does to players. Also as an experiment to see how long that would take, considering my last 3 player game took about 2 hours. I'm still trying to wrap my head around combat, when to do it and when to threaten it, and how to defend against it. My last game I was terrified of the Saxony player because he, at almost any time, could waltz over and beat me up, and he could do this as much as he wanted for stars. I felt like I was powerless against that, but that's probably my inexperience talking. Still an awesome game.
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May 15, 2017 16:30
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!Klams posted:That final point though, I think speaks to the weird thing with Scythe, where it sort of subverts the typical expectations of that kind of a game. Like you say, there's only really one attack per player per game, maybe two, its very much a farming game with a looming threat of violence, rather than a wargame, and the rulebook actually has tooltips to point this out, because at face value you're expecting lots of combat. To add on to that, Scythe also has the classic opportunism seen in games like Kemet. If the attacker spends too many resources winning the battle, everyone else starts gunning for them, because it's an easy, guaranteed star/VP. Simply making the opponent think they will have to spend considerable power and combat cards when someone else is nearby is often a considerable deterrent.
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May 15, 2017 16:41
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!Klams posted:...a farming game with a looming threat of violence... Brilliant description. I've only played Scythe once but I think the combat is great on a thematic level. It's just a mild disapointment to look at the awesome miniatures and realize that they're souped-up tractors as much as anything. Not a major disappointment, just a little frown, but it's still a mental shift required to start digging into the game.
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May 15, 2017 16:46
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I've found that the Scythe solo system surprisingly leads to more combat than a multiplayer game, particularly if you don't choose factions diametrically opposite one another.
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May 15, 2017 16:51
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CaptainRightful posted:I've found that the Scythe solo system surprisingly leads to more combat than a multiplayer game, particularly if you don't choose factions diametrically opposite one another. Combat is also more reasonable. A human player new to the game will use all possible power and play their best cards 100% of the time, making even considering combat foolish. The automa though, will sometimes use just 1 power and 1 card even though it has 12 power and 6 cards stocked.
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May 15, 2017 17:01
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Mage knight just arrived, time to dig in. Dark souls still hasn't, which is pretty sad but to be expected. I hope gloomhaven performs better in the shipping department.
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May 15, 2017 18:06
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!Klams posted:Similarly, when we were playing one time, one of the players got really despondent, "Aw man, he can just come and attack me at any time and I can't win the combat, this team feels really bad". But I had to ask "So what?". And obviously he says "I can't do anything about it, it just feels really unfair" and normally that would be a totally legitimate gripe. But in this case, there would be essentially no benefit to the player attacking him, plus they would lose popularity, PLUS there would be incredibly minimal negative effect to him for losing the combat. So, while you're right, you do get a sudden explosive threat of combat, combat is usually a Pyrrhic victory at best or actively beneficial to the defender at worst. As someone alive in the 80's, I did not find the looming threat of war and nuclear annihilation by the hands random superpowers very fun, so I empathize.
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May 15, 2017 18:33
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I'm gonna be learning both Millennium Blades and Arkwright tomorrow, are there any good how-to-play videos or guides for either? I like having a decent foundation going in.
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May 15, 2017 20:56
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I don't know of a good arkwright video, but stick to spinning jenny for your first playthough in arkwright and get the rules for demand down cold before you teach it. Millenium blades is much easier to teach but print out errata and FAQs before you play.
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May 15, 2017 21:15
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I'm not actually teaching either game, my friend just got them in and I'm going to his place to learn/play. But alright, sounds good.
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May 15, 2017 21:16
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Impermanent posted:I don't know of a good arkwright video, but stick to spinning jenny for your first playthough in arkwright and get the rules for demand down cold before you teach it. Millenium blades is much easier to teach but print out errata and FAQs before you play. Which errata/FAQs are you talking about? I want to have this stuff before I sit down and figure it out myself if possible.
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May 15, 2017 21:19
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!Klams posted:That final point though, I think speaks to the weird thing with Scythe, where it sort of subverts the typical expectations of that kind of a game. Like you say, there's only really one attack per player per game, maybe two, its very much a farming game with a looming threat of violence, rather than a wargame, and the rulebook actually has tooltips to point this out, because at face value you're expecting lots of combat. I actually love the theme and minis and wish more games did the same. I've said in the past that Caverna would be so much cooler if it was rethemed to be about gundams and expanding your commander's colony. We would get so many more cool themes out of games if those themes were allowed to be in things other than wargames and we didn't get the 500th worker placement farming simulator. One day, we might get Jojo's BA-knockoff worker placement eurogames. 
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May 15, 2017 21:21
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Chill la Chill posted:I actually love the theme and minis and wish more games did the same. I've said in the past that Caverna would be so much cooler if it was rethemed to be about gundams and expanding your commander's colony. We would get so many more cool themes out of games if those themes were allowed to be in things other than wargames and we didn't get the 500th worker placement farming simulator. I'd kill for a good JJBA game.
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May 15, 2017 21:23
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Mage Knight trip report: We had to stop 2 hours in, so at least we managed to finish the first three turns.
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May 15, 2017 21:23
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Kashuno posted:I'd kill for a good JJBA game. Caylus but you're in JJBA Diamond is Unbreakable's suburbs.
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May 15, 2017 21:26
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Chill la Chill posted:Caylus but you're in JJBA Diamond is Unbreakable's suburbs. As long as there's angry Kira/Killer Queen on the cover, this sounds good.
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May 15, 2017 21:29
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taser rates posted:As long as there's angry Kira/Killer Queen on the cover, this sounds good. 
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May 15, 2017 21:37
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instant pledge
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May 15, 2017 21:42
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We should get on the blower to Level 99 and suggest the next season of Exceed be JoJos
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May 15, 2017 21:43
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please knock Mom! posted:instant pledge 
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May 15, 2017 21:49
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Zark the Damned posted:We should get on the blower to Level 99 and suggest the next season of Exceed be JoJos The JoJo's license is almost certainly fire right now, I doubt they could afford it. If we're going to get a JoJo's anything it'll probably be for Panini's new cross-franchise card game since they already have connections to Funimation.
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May 15, 2017 22:02
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Countblanc posted:I'm gonna be learning both Millennium Blades and Arkwright tomorrow, are there any good how-to-play videos or guides for either? I like having a decent foundation going in. Here's one. The presenter makes one minor error in the video: At the start of each deckbuilding phase, you reveal the ELEMENT meta. After the first timer finishes, you reveal the TYPE meta. The presenter gets these backwards. Also, he goes a bit fast over when you receive new cards. To clarify:
You get an additional PRIZE SUPPORT promo card, and optionally a PRO PLAYER card, after the Round 1 and Round 2 tournaments. (Not the Prerelease Tournament.) gutterdaughter fucked around with this message at 22:52 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 22:49
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Doublepost because I care. Millennium Blades is a L99 game, so there's definitely some formatting wonkiness and some easily-missed rules. Here's some of the most common ones.
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May 16, 2017 00:14
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Thanks for the effort, I appreciate it. Will report back tomorrow. Also I'm apparently playing Great Western Trail rather than Arkwright.
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May 16, 2017 00:32
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Speaking of millennium blades, how essential is Set Rotation?
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May 16, 2017 00:59
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I was bored so I listened to this vid from dice tower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=240MEXkCoJM Obviously I'm not asking you all to watch it, but at the end, Tom's number 1 pick was that publishers need to stop putting out bad games and that the publishers know they're making bad games and when they go to publish them, they should look at it and see if it is bad or not and if it is bad, fix it or don't bother publishing it, and then he goes into how they should be comparing their games as they come out so that if your next game isn't as good as your last one, you shouldn't bother releasing it and you should only release games that are absolutely without a doubt "good" and it's hilarious imo just how little he seems to know about the process of designing a board game. I don't know jack about designing a board game and I think I know more than he does if he thinks it's anywhere near as simple as a publisher just looking at a game and going "is this fun? no? well gently caress this poo poo, I'm out" lol
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May 16, 2017 01:26
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FirstAidKite posted:I was bored so I listened to this vid from dice tower I think the most telling thing about Tom Vassel was the stories about Mechs vs Minions. He was bought in as a consultant on the game, endorsed it as amazing and rolled off. Riot is confident they can go to press, but they'd already booked tickets for Quinns from SU&SD to fly out so bought him out. He pointed out the game was garbage and Riot delayed the release by months to address the issues and come up with the current product.
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May 16, 2017 01:35
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I think the most telling thing about Tom Vassel was the stories about Mechs vs Minions. He was bought in as a consultant on the game, endorsed it as amazing and rolled off. Riot is confident they can go to press, but they'd already booked tickets for Quinns from SU&SD to fly out so bought him out. He pointed out the game was garbage and Riot delayed the release by months to address the issues and come up with the current product. How much would you be willing to bet the game Vasel consulted on had die rolls for every single action that would possibly destroy a minion and he loved it.
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May 16, 2017 02:07
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I think the most telling thing about Tom Vassel was the stories about Mechs vs Minions. He was bought in as a consultant on the game, endorsed it as amazing and rolled off. Riot is confident they can go to press, but they'd already booked tickets for Quinns from SU&SD to fly out so bought him out. He pointed out the game was garbage and Riot delayed the release by months to address the issues and come up with the current product. IIRC, Quinns described it as something like "It's great but I'll never play it again" which I think lead it to becoming a campaign game.
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May 16, 2017 02:14
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Magnetic North posted:IIRC, Quinns described it as something like "It's great but I'll never play it again" which I think lead it to becoming a campaign game. Yeah, there Riot Games designer is here: https://www.redbull.com/au-en/mechs-vs-minions-lol-board-game-interview But Quinns suggested the campaign and the modular board which is.. a huge component of the game? You can see how substantial the changes were as they did extensive re-work afterwards. Just shows how crap Vassel is to fail to detect the problem of 'this is a big box $75 USD game that has zero replayability'
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May 16, 2017 02:17
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There is a reason Rutibex's avatar is Tom Vassel.
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May 16, 2017 02:23
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FirstAidKite posted:I was bored so I listened to this vid from dice tower As an employee of a small publisher, thanks for sharing this, I hadn't seen it, I'll be sure to share it with others for reference sake. But yeah, so much of this seems incredibly short sighted, subjective, or just plain naive. Like, "compare your new game to your last game"? What? It can be complete apples to oranges, and usually is. Also, echoing so much of the random bickering that happens in this thread, not every game is made for your tastes, and that doesn't make it bad. The % of people in the industry who think and game like the regulars in this thread is, ultimately, a very, very small number of the overall consumer base for modern games. "Stop making bad games" is literally the most useless and empty feedback anyone could submit to a publisher. AND, literally nobody designs or signs a game thinking that it's bad or that it won't sell. C'mon guys, act like you're grown ups who understand how the world works for just a minute. Unsurprisingly between the 3 of them, Zee's list is pretty reasonable actually, and arguably has the least number of purely subjective items. Gutter Owl posted:Millenium Blades chat Merauder fucked around with this message at 02:27 on May 16, 2017 |
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May 16, 2017 02:24
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Merauder posted:AND, literally nobody designs or signs a game thinking that it's bad Really? nobody? 
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May 16, 2017 02:28
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Rutibex posted:Really? nobody? I'm sure even these guys have a customer base in mind. I don't want to know who those customers are, but all the same, I'm sure they know their customers.
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May 16, 2017 02:33
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!Klams posted:I think what it is, is that, you have a player board with a whole bunch of little pieces on, and doing stuff makes you move those pieces either around on the player board or onto the game board, but in doing so reveals bonuses where the bits were sitting, or covers up costs. This process is really gratifying. You could have an entirely different game (like a deck builder) with the player board attached, and it would be great too. Ooo like Eclipse. There is something viscerally satisfying about lifting cubes and revealing numbers that are higher than previous numbers. Speaking of Scythe, anyone want to take a stab at comparing it to City of Remnants? Seeing as how CoR is also an economic game with combat that generally turns into a cold war until the very end when people are eking out extra points.
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May 16, 2017 03:21
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Merauder posted:
Zee needs his own channel because he usually has interesting, substantive things to say about why or why not a game is mechanically fun to him, instead of Vasel's "you roll the dice and it's fun because you get lots of points and the monsters look scary!" reviews.
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May 16, 2017 03:23
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Rutibex posted:Really? nobody? The full quote had "or won't sell" after that. I'll bet my life on it that any niche variation of monopoly has had enough souvenir shop sales to break even or make a small profit. It's not like they need to do playtesting, only print the cards and the board.
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May 16, 2017 03:25
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dropkickpikachu posted:Zee needs his own channel because he usually has interesting, substantive things to say about why or why not a game is mechanically fun to him, instead of Vasel's "you roll the dice and it's fun because you get lots of points and the monsters look scary!" reviews. Unless its Dark Souls, then he didnt like rolling the dice and the monster had a little head, "is that what its like in the computer game?"
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May 16, 2017 03:36
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