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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Yeah, but the official line from Marvel is that they're not Nazis, omigawd you guys. Haha I read a little article about the Captain America/Hydra thing and it seems like they're in full on reverse wheel spinning mode w/r/t that storyline
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May 15, 2017 23:37
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bring back old gbs posted:lmao quoting Agent Coulson/Agents of Shield: This is the same stupid show that retconned Hydra into being an ancient organization founded to return an ancient Inhuman named Hive to Earth from its exile on an alien planet. There's an age of exploration flashback to Hydra and everything. Red Skull didn't found poo poo and both Gemma and Daisy should know this.
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May 15, 2017 23:49
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counterfeitsaint posted:Also, the Hand came into existence a long time ago when they discovered the secret to eternal life (presumably the coffin), why would they be digging for it in New York? The secret is actually in Sleepy Hollow, The Hand are just using super old maps from before the Bering Straight land bridge sank back into the ocean.
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May 16, 2017 00:29
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:The most important thing to realize here, okay, is that Hydra aren't Nazis, okay? /Marvel I'll never understand this form of apologism from them. Why is it a problem for Hydra to be Nazis? They're a fascist-militant cult of supremacists and are explicitly the bad guys. They're "not really Nazis" in the way Richard Spencer is "not actually a neo-Nazi." Which is to say they are absolutely Nazis that simply wish fewer people were offended by that. Cap being secretly Hydra is stupid by any stretch. But Magneto being Hydra is one of the shittiest comic twists I've ever heard. Turning an Auschwitz survivor into a secret Nazi should never, ever have gotten past a treatment.
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May 16, 2017 00:40
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So they can sell Hydra branded merch, obviously
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May 16, 2017 00:44
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I don't know anything about the comic book drama that's happening right now but like at least in terms of the MCU and Agents of Shield the "we're not really Nazis" has always been a semantics defense that Hydra agents make that immediately gets rejected. Like sure, ok, in 2010 Hydra aren't literally Nazis but that doesn't ignore what they were and the mutual interests and ideas. And even when they went the "ancient cult" route with Hydra they were still an evil organization bent on subjection and racism (specieism?) that welcomed an association with Nazis even if their specific target wasn't actually Jews or something. But like the most recent version of Hydra was a fascist government with kept the population complacent with propaganda lies and the threat of being scooped up from your home. So like, the point is Hydra agents go "man, we're not Nazis" and then people say "gently caress you, you're a Nazi, Nazi." because you lose the right to argue semantics at some point. I can't, however, speak to the Marvel comics and whatever they're doing with Nazi Cap and Magneto and poo poo. That poo poo sounds hosed.
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May 16, 2017 00:48
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Light Gun Man posted:So they can sell Hydra branded merch, obviously This is probably exactly it. They realised all those nerds that have Decepticon tattoos and bumper stickers wouldnt do the same for Hydra because of the connection. and now the next transformers movie is the 'secret history' of the transformers being involved in all aspects of human history including some nazi scenes in the new trailers.
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May 16, 2017 01:37
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bring back old gbs posted:This is probably exactly it. They realised all those nerds that have Decepticon tattoos and bumper stickers wouldnt do the same for Hydra because of the connection. You're probably right, and that's gross. Similarly, I've seen people with the Harry Potter dark mark tattooed on their arm, and it's really weird. Voldemort is a not-even-thinly-veiled white supremacist in the context of those stories. Megatron or Darkseid or whoever are total abstractions of evil, but Voldemort is straight-up an ethnic supremacist who wants to exterminate the racially inferior. It's really very concrete.
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May 16, 2017 02:38
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Xealot posted:You're probably right, and that's gross. Similarly, I've seen people with the Harry Potter dark mark tattooed on their arm, and it's really weird. Voldemort is a not-even-thinly-veiled white supremacist in the context of those stories. Megatron or Darkseid or whoever are total abstractions of evil, but Voldemort is straight-up an ethnic supremacist who wants to exterminate the racially inferior. It's really very concrete. Or all the people who say Zeon from Gundam weren't really that bad, where the comparison is made pretty dang explicit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlJ5j-hSUmQ
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May 16, 2017 02:44
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AngryBooch posted:This is the same stupid show that retconned Hydra into being an ancient organization founded to return an ancient Inhuman named Hive to Earth from its exile on an alien planet. There's an age of exploration flashback to Hydra and everything. Red Skull didn't found poo poo and both Gemma and Daisy should know this. So, Nazis.
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May 16, 2017 04:48
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AngryBooch posted:This is the same stupid show that retconned Hydra into being an ancient organization founded to return an ancient Inhuman named Hive to Earth from its exile on an alien planet. There's an age of exploration flashback to Hydra and everything. Red Skull didn't found poo poo and both Gemma and Daisy should know this. Show is actually pretty good. Hell I'd say none of the Netflix shows are as consistent as AOS. DDs2 is a waste 50% of the time, Jessica kind of meanders in the middle. Luke Cage S1 had a horrible late half, and Iron Fist sucked nearly every episode. AOS at its worse was just boring, and it really hasn't had that problem since early season 1. And the modern era of Hydra is certainly tied to Nazis.
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May 16, 2017 04:55
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STAC Goat posted:I can't, however, speak to the Marvel comics and whatever they're doing with Nazi Cap and Magneto and poo poo. That poo poo sounds hosed.
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May 16, 2017 05:02
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BrianWilly posted:The 20th century incarnation of Hydra, as seen in the Captain America films and the Framework reality of AoS, are the branch of Hydra that explicitly rejected that esoteric space stuff to focus on being fascistic ideologues who retain power through fear, coercion, and propaganda. Hydra in the Winter Soldier and the framework arc are lead by good, good Shield boys: Alexander Pierce and Leopold Fitz, not Nazis.
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May 16, 2017 05:26
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AngryBooch posted:Leopold Fitz, not Nazis. Giving Framework Fitz Richard Spencer hair and well-tailored suits was a real deft touch by the production staff. He was a total nazi
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May 16, 2017 05:41
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Xealot posted:I'll never understand this form of apologism from them. Why is it a problem for Hydra to be Nazis? They're a fascist-militant cult of supremacists and are explicitly the bad guys. They're "not really Nazis" in the way Richard Spencer is "not actually a neo-Nazi." Which is to say they are absolutely Nazis that simply wish fewer people were offended by that. Red Skull's comic origin was that he was personally selected and trained by Hitler and his costume was a jumpsuit with a giant swastika. He was the Nazi-est Nazi ever. 
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May 16, 2017 07:26
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The Magneto stuff is based on one variant cover and a very brief description of an upcoming issue. On the one hand the whole thing hasn't done much to deserve charity, on the other hand people are assuming a lot based on very little info. If they end up making Magneto a Hydra agent in non-cosmic cubed 616, it might be the worst decision they've made since Spiderman made a deal with the literal devil to save Aunt May.
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May 16, 2017 09:48
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bring back old gbs posted:This is probably exactly it. They realised all those nerds that have Decepticon tattoos and bumper stickers wouldnt do the same for Hydra because of the connection. I'm not sure why you would brand yourself or your possessions with a Decepticon symbol. They're the bad guys. Megatron thinks fleshbags aren't really even alive, not the way proper Cybertronians are. But yes. Branding. Once you go full Nazi, it's something you don't come back from. You never go full Nazi. The way this relates to the Hand is while they have traditionally been ninja in modern stories, like Hydra has been Nazis, they aren't really ninja/Nazis because of what some nerds say.
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May 16, 2017 11:17
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I'm not sure why you would brand yourself or your possessions with a Decepticon symbol. Well yes, but they're a race of giant alien robots who just have vaguely defined plans of ruling the world and get in big fun explosiony battles, they're not exactly mirroring any problem we ever have to deal with in real life. It's a very large step removed from a human enemy who were literal Nazis at one point and have never tried very hard to divorce themselves from it. Wearing a Decepticon symbol just says "I'm kind of a manchild and these were the way cooler robots", wearing a Hydra symbol suggests you thought this Nazi off-shoot was really cool.
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May 16, 2017 15:38
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They'd probably sell more Hydra merch these days if they just went all in on the Nazi stuff to be honest.
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May 16, 2017 15:41
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howe_sam posted:Giving Framework Fitz Richard Spencer hair and well-tailored suits was a real deft touch by the production staff. He was a total nazi Apparently both of those were Iain de Castecker's idea. He said he difficulty getting into the mindset of the role so emulating Spencer in appearance helped him focus on being a hateful rear end in a top hat.
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May 16, 2017 17:57
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Apparently both of those were Iain de Castecker's idea. He said he difficulty getting into the mindset of the role so emulating Spencer in appearance helped him focus on being a hateful rear end in a top hat. That's really cool -- is the interview on-line?
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May 16, 2017 21:09
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Apparently both of those were Iain de Castecker's idea. He said he difficulty getting into the mindset of the role so emulating Spencer in appearance helped him focus on being a hateful rear end in a top hat. I hope this is true, because that is loving awesome.
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May 16, 2017 21:14
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AngryBooch posted:This is the same stupid show that retconned Hydra into being an ancient organization founded to return an ancient Inhuman named Hive to Earth from its exile on an alien planet. There's an age of exploration flashback to Hydra and everything. Red Skull didn't found poo poo and both Gemma and Daisy should know this.
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May 17, 2017 02:12
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Yeah they didn't retcon anything. More an expansion than anything else.
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May 17, 2017 04:14
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Hydra preceded the Nazis and was not founded by Red Skull in the mythos of the show. It makes as much sense to say every last Hydra agent is a member of Shield or a covert Soviet super soldier program.
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May 17, 2017 17:44
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Sorry you don't get to take a mulligan on being a nazi.
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May 17, 2017 17:55
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Yep. Hydra backed and joined the nazis. They're nazis. Every last one of them.
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May 17, 2017 18:36
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Yeah, it doesn't matter if Hydra started before the Nazis or continued after them. They at some point said "yeah, we're Nazis now." That poo poo sticks with you.
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May 17, 2017 18:40
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"That was just, like, a phase we went through. Stop bringing it up, gawwwwd."
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May 17, 2017 18:44
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There's a reason every character on Agents of SHIELD gets a turn shooting _______Ward________ in the face.
STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 18:57 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 18:51
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, it doesn't matter if Hydra started before the Nazis or continued after them. They at some point said "yeah, we're Nazis now." That poo poo sticks with you. And Hydra was an Illuminati-style secret society before going public as a Nazi operation with the freaking Red Skull as their front man, so, helluva first impression. \/\/\/ exactly McSpanky fucked around with this message at 19:04 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 18:57
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Hydra wasn't Nazis, until the second Nazis existed at which point they immediately joined up with the Nazis because they had the same goals and beliefs.
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May 17, 2017 18:59
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"We're not Nazis, we're merely Nazi-adjacent' is never a good argument.
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May 17, 2017 19:42
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ImpAtom posted:"We're not Nazis, we're merely Nazi-adjacent' is never a good argument. Tell it to Richard Spencer.
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May 17, 2017 19:52
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McSpanky posted:Tell it to Richard Spencer. I would but if i got within ten feet of him my fist would be magnetically attracted to his face.
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May 17, 2017 19:53
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Why would Hydra even be shying away from the whole Nazi thing? Nazis are literally more popular in America right now than they have been since the 1930s.
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May 17, 2017 21:51
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counterfeitsaint posted:Why would Hydra even be shying away from the whole Nazi thing? Nazis are literally more popular in America right now than they have been since the 1930s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1yJCg65rYw
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May 17, 2017 22:35
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That was from 2015, before Nazis became cool again. We're living in a totally different world now.
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May 18, 2017 03:26
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Guy Goodbody posted:Hydra wasn't Nazis, until the second Nazis existed at which point they immediately joined up with the Nazis because they had the same goals and beliefs. Really, the Nazis were just very good at branding. It's like how coffee's been a staple forever but Starbucks made it super popular. What I'm saying is that the Nazis are like the Starbucks of anti-Semitic fascism. I guess Dunkin' Donuts would be Czarist Russia in this example.
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May 18, 2017 11:05
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I wasn't saying they aren't Nazis, for what it's worth. Just stating that AoS basically said "they were a kooky crazy cult that worshipped aliens, and then they decided to be Nazis too." Hydra is more than just Nazis, but they are still Nazis.
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May 18, 2017 11:51
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