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LogicNinja posted:I got to play around with Ignition a whole bunch this game. Do you know if Ignition does extra damage to enemies that are next to each other (as though you fireballed each individually)? I found it a lot of fun and it felt strong but I don't have a great sense for that.
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May 16, 2017 06:10
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rchandra posted:Do you know if Ignition does extra damage to enemies that are next to each other (as though you fireballed each individually)? Yeah it stacks. The issue is it has with no irresistible component or added utility so it's often Fireball with a 60% mana tax. At L8 by the time you can cast it reliably you have strong incentive to push hard for Firestorm, which outclasses it just about unconditionally. So you use Ignition for an xl or two then it's 8 spell levels of dead weight. I would limit it to a double hit on any one target and take it down to level 7. Then it would be positioned nicely against other level 7 spells. At Level 8 it demands a heavy investment in fire/conj which in turns demands rushing Firestorm. And to be quite frank, for 8 levels and 8 mana per cast Chain Lightning is better in almost all situations even with much lower Air. Great a range or point blank, equally good on 1-3 enemies as on 4-6, hits a less common and different resist. So clearing Elf with ignition is a lot of fun but it's spell with situational use for a limited lifespan.
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May 16, 2017 07:05
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rchandra posted:Do you know if Ignition does extra damage to enemies that are next to each other (as though you fireballed each individually)? It wasn't weak exactly, and it was definitely convenient, but level 8 really is too high to let it shine.
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May 16, 2017 07:47
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Araganzar posted:At Level 8 it demands a heavy investment in fire/conj which in turns demands rushing Firestorm.
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May 16, 2017 08:25
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Also note that Ignition only did fireball damage when it was first added and has since been nerfed down to maybe 3/4 of a fireball. That nerf really felt like an overreaction.
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May 16, 2017 08:28
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Can Of Worms posted:Note that Ignition is single school. True, that does reasonably extend its lifespan. I could see using it to clear Elf and Slime. Still, it's not like Earth where you have Sandblast and LRD on the way to Shatter. There are no other fire-only spells so you'll likely have 10-12 conjuration by the time you get Ignition. Might give it a try again but it seemed oddly placed at L8 with less than fireball power.
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May 16, 2017 08:56
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Just found a set of altars on D:1 as a DeFE - Chei, Ru, Nemelex, Zim, Ash. Obviously a D1 altar is sweet, but I've never played any of these gods as a caster before. Suggestions?
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May 16, 2017 12:16
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Chei is a death trap to early in the game when the slight stat increases aren't worth the movement delay. Ru eludes me in how to play them right and personally not a fan of Nemelex or Ash. So go Zim for sweet alien powers. Zin probably ain't worth it either. I would wait for Vehemut like a good little blaster caster
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May 16, 2017 12:40
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Captain Monkey posted:Potions of lignification being set to neutral pickup vs preferred pickup by default (whatever you call 'only pick up if you already have a stack' vs 'always get this, like unid'd potions or food') has always been mildly annoying. Sure, I probably don't want them on a Spriggan or something, but generally they're very useful in a variety of situations. For me they're on par with potions of might down to at least level 8-9, good for clearing stuff like ghosts and early orc warriors. Everything except polearm users. I always quaff-id them a step away from sigmund.
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May 16, 2017 12:49
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rj54x posted:Just found a set of altars on D:1 as a DeFE - Chei, Ru, Nemelex, Zim, Ash. Obviously a D1 altar is sweet, but I've never played any of these gods as a caster before. Suggestions? Take Ash, since an early altar means you get through that god's weak early period sooner. Curse all the gear you can, with a preference for jewelry. Leave your hands open for the first bow you find and curse that, using it in combination with spells to expand the number of enemies you can kill from a safe distance before resting. If you find acquirement and already have around 10 bows, use it on weapon and crush the rest of the game with a longbow and your magic. DE^Ash can learn pretty much any drat spell it pleases, so don't be afraid to branch out in the mid game if you find good books. The idea is to have a wide variety of spells to meet every situation, since you can pick up even mid-high level spells for little investment. If you find level 9 spells, those will easily be within reach by the end of depths while still maintaining very solid ranged damage from your bow.
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May 16, 2017 13:14
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It's not until you play a mummy without any chance of getting clarity aside from a rare weapon, that you really really miss having it. Any other race I play mutation roulette until I get either rMut or Clarity and consider it a holy grail mutation.
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May 16, 2017 14:55
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Spellcasting, Int, and the spell's specific school all determine spell power right? Which one affects it the most if I'm trying to beeline for max spellpower on a spell?
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May 16, 2017 16:22
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The base formula is (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT/10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). There's some diminishing returns that kick in after 50 but it's not important to your question. To that end Spell schools have the most influence, followed by Spellcasting (by a fourth of the schools) and then INT (by a tenth).
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May 16, 2017 16:54
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Sage Grimm posted:The base formula is (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT/10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). There's some diminishing returns that kick in after 50 but it's not important to your question. Minor nit; by that formula INT might be the most important thing if you're lacking in it. Also for 2-3 school spells, raising spellcasting can sometimes be more xp-savvy when you look at the relative cost of each skill.
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May 16, 2017 18:17
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0.20 is releasing on May 24th, and the tournament is starting on the 26th. Gnolls and Wu Jian are staying behind in trunk, so the changelog is pretty set in stone at this point. I guess it's a good time to start organizing teams unless everyone is still disgruntled or apathetic about playing the new version. I haven't put effort into stupid team names yet, but I'll follow up with some when I take another good look through the changelog.
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May 16, 2017 20:30
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listen I have a 0.12% win rate so don't wait too long to pick me up for your funteam. I promise to take it slow and maybe win again?
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May 16, 2017 20:35
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I'm loving spriggan enchanter. All of the spells sans corona are amazing and see regular use. Tukima's is the one i thought I'd barely use, but against a tough group of orcs or the maze-like woods lair finale i came across filled with armed spriggans, it's a godsend. Doing a dry run by sneaking through said finale using shadowstep to take out boggarts and tukima's to disarm the spriggans then zipping away to heal up and attack it again was definitely one of my coolest crawl moments.
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May 16, 2017 22:05
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Floodkiller posted:0.20 is releasing on May 24th, and the tournament is starting on the 26th. Gnolls and Wu Jian are staying behind in trunk, so the changelog is pretty set in stone at this point. Does this include the Tomb change?
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May 16, 2017 22:08
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Yeah, new tomb downed my most recent formicid. He easily chopped his way through slime and pan. I actually made it through the second floor of tomb with the help of lignification, but the stairs back up to the first floor are also a hatch, and I actually got killed there. The thing that lignification makes tough are the flayed ghost summons. They are often behind wall of other poo poo, and it causes real issues. I am not sure I could 15 rune my normal melee guy right now with the tomb trapdoors. Seems like too rough of a change.
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May 16, 2017 22:32
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Filthy Monkey posted:Yeah, new tomb downed my most recent formicid. He easily chopped his way through slime and pan. I actually made it through the second floor of tomb with the help of lignification, but the stairs back up to the first floor are also a hatch, and I actually got killed there. The thing that lignification makes tough are the flayed ghost summons. They are often behind wall of other poo poo, and it causes real issues. I am not sure I could 15 rune my normal melee guy right now with the tomb trapdoors. Seems like too rough of a change. But crawl is too easy!
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May 17, 2017 00:09
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I love carving out a little house as a formicid to stash stuff in. Can one of the devs please implement a wand of create door and a basic fruit farming system so I can carve out my own little homestead?
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May 17, 2017 01:33
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LogicNinja posted:But crawl is too easy! But you see, if you get an incredibly lucky run where you are covered in artifacts and can roll over everything you won't have any problems if you keep to the standard path. Therefore we need to make the entire game more difficult for everybody so that those 0.01% golden runs are challenging.
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May 17, 2017 01:42
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Like I've mentioned before, stairdancing enabled different types of characters to deal with Tomb. Sure it boils down to stairdancing but that's okay! In the end how you reduced things to stairdancing was different and I think that's valuable to keep. Now the difficulty was needlessly driven up so only a much more limited set of characters can tackle it without being suicidal which is a net loss for the game IMO. Take games like Legend of Grimrock 1 and 2: imagine criticizing it because every battle can be boiled down to kiting or a game like XCOM:EU because stepping slowly while spamming overwatch until an alien group walks into your fire is generally optimal (even with meld introduced, but bomb defusal missions are an exception). Sure they may be valid criticisms but they're so ingrained into the core gameplay that you can't just rip that out and expect good results. Crawl has Vault wardens (and sirens in Shoals?), that's disruptive enough as it is, and that's while being able to kill them and immediately go back to stairdancing. New Tomb you can technically do *expensive* stairdancing with cblink and/or haste, but again a lot less characters will be capable of this, and it's not like Tomb was free XP or items so.. why even do this? On a related note, Hellcrawl does away with stairs altogether but it also had to make small adjustments all over the place to compensate, and it still feels a little too brutal at times.
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May 17, 2017 02:10
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Tomb itself sucked but weighing the price of doing it early in an extended run versus putting it off until later was at least somewhat interesting. Tomb has a large amount of loot but if you do it near the end of your game it will mostly be redundant. I started going there before doing other extended branches because sometimes I could score a very useful artifact. Now its so lethal I don't even wanna think about going there at all. Unless of course I'm playing a build that can trivialize its threats, but there's nothing interesting about that. This change was supposed to make Tomb more "interesting" but all it does is make me never want to do it again. Cause the only thing worse than slogging through Tomb is getting killed there. Darox posted:But you see, if you get an incredibly lucky run where you are covered in artifacts and can roll over everything you won't have any problems if you keep to the standard path. Therefore we need to make the entire game more difficult for everybody so that those 0.01% golden runs are challenging. Of course you can still go in as a Gargoyle of TSO and steamroll the place despite the change.
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May 17, 2017 03:19
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apple posted:Like I've mentioned before, stairdancing enabled different types of characters to deal with Tomb. Sure it boils down to stairdancing but that's okay! In the end how you reduced things to stairdancing was different and I think that's valuable to keep. Now the difficulty was needlessly driven up so only a much more limited set of characters can tackle it without being suicidal which is a net loss for the game IMO. The same set of characters can deal with Tomb safely, all that has changed is the tactics you use, which might include a higher usage of certain consumables depending on what you decide to do. Certainly all characters will find the tactics less straightforward than when stair-dancing was an obvious and required little planning. Whether or not you find less straightforward tactics more interesting is certainly subjective, but it's an advanced branch, so requiring some more "advanced" tactics is fine. My play-testing was with a simple HuFi of Oka using a great mace. It relied on some fog scrolls, a few haste pots, two blink scrolls, some evocables (had 15 evo), and spell-wise it had regen, abjuration (which wasn't terribly useful; control undead would have been vastly better), blink, and swift. Tomb:2 went very well with a strategy of moving quickly into a room and a second attempt with the usual random teleport worked fine. Tomb:3 you really don't have to do more than get into a loot chamber and kill as much as what you can as is reasonable before moving to an exit hatch or teleporting. ITT give me good, non-joke ideas for more transporter vaults. I'm thinking of doing a transporter-themed ending for Shoals that will involve you moving between islands, if I can nail down the idea more, but that won't be until after tourney. I would like to do one for elf as well, but it would need to have a very different layout from a conventional elf ending for it to not to be overboard. Will probably end up being an encompass vault.
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May 17, 2017 04:43
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So you changed Tomb to require much more consumable use in the version that made consumables rarer with the loss of the wands. Okay.gammafunk posted:Tomb:3 you really don't have to do more than get into a loot chamber and kill as much as what you can as is reasonable before moving to an exit hatch or teleporting. That's essentially the same loving thing as stair dancing, there's just an extra step involved. There's nothing advanced about the amazing tactics of "lure stuff into a room" and "walk up stairs when you're going to die". You just made Tomb more tedious and dangerous by having it take longer. But that doesn't make it fun, which has always been the big problem with Tomb. Its a boring slog. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 05:04 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 04:56
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So what are the selling points for this new version anyway? "Frogs?" "Noise meter?" "Less fun?" i've never felt like I don't WANT to start playing a new Crawl version before. it's often a mixed bag, but the good outweighs the bad.
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May 17, 2017 05:00
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gammafunk posted:The same set of characters can deal with Tomb safely, all that has changed is the tactics you use, which might include a higher usage of certain consumables depending on what you decide to do. Certainly all characters will find the tactics less straightforward than when stair-dancing was an obvious and required little planning. Whether or not you find less straightforward tactics more interesting is certainly subjective, but it's an advanced branch, so requiring some more "advanced" tactics is fine. Tomb was boring because it required stairdancing. It required stairdancing because it was badly designed. These changes doesn't fix the latter problem, it pretends that it doesn't exist. It's a dumb, lazy change that makes the branch unambiguously worse.
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May 17, 2017 05:12
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don't worry, they've replaced the tedious bit of gameplay with something just as tedious yet more dangerous at the same time. just buckle up for the thick flurry of further changes that are sure to soon follow and make it the best idea ever
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May 17, 2017 05:27
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tweet my meat posted:Spellcasting, Int, and the spell's specific school all determine spell power right? Which one affects it the most if I'm trying to beeline for max spellpower on a spell? On the topic of spellpower, is there any benefit to twin-fisting rings of ice or fire?
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May 17, 2017 05:43
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And by the way, here's a sampling of the chars that have done new tomb without any good good or species or god-based torment resistance:code:gammafunk fucked around with this message at 05:47 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 05:44
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Statue form is one of the things that trivializes Tomb so I'm not sure why you wouldn't rule it out from that. Nobody is saying new Tomb is impossible though. People are pointing out that you made it more dangerous without making it any more enjoyable. That's not a positive change. If this is part of a bigger rework then it should actually be kept out of the game until more work is done. Cause last time we had an annoying change as part of a "larger rework" it was what, 3 versions until mutations were actually significantly altered? Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 05:57 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 05:48
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Wales Grey posted:On the topic of spellpower, is there any benefit to twin-fisting rings of ice or fire? Yes, spellpower enhancers will stack up to 3 times, so you can wear a second and get spellpower benefit as long as you aren't also wearing archmagi while wielding staff of fire (or conj if that's relevant). The mutation-based spellpower enhancers (aug and wild magic) aren't counted in this limit, though.
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May 17, 2017 05:50
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...So. 26 characters not using good gods, undead, or necromut, and you didn't rule out the other common way of cheesing tomb, Statue Form. And this is since the tomb change was put in months ago. Those are not good numbers!
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May 17, 2017 05:55
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Those numbers are just great. I don't know where you got the idea that there's a quota (this many milestones to ride!). It's just to show that people are able to do Tomb just fine with all sorts of approaches. Statue form doesn't "break tomb" unless you've been reading a bad wiki guide or something. I would vastly prefer to have normal action speed over half torment resist. Statue form is certainly convenient for clearing tomb in a particular way, just less good than a lot of ways that involve being normal speed. Regardless, a majority of those chars aren't using statue form.
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May 17, 2017 06:19
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gammafunk posted:Statue form doesn't "break tomb" unless you've been reading a bad wiki guide or something. I would vastly prefer to have normal action speed over half torment resist. Statue form is certainly convenient for clearing tomb in a particular way, just less good than a lot of ways that involve being normal speed. Oh is the stupid "statue form is bad" meme still a thing? I thought "good" players finally stopped parroting that but I guess not. Look, I've done Tomb dozens of times. I've done it with statue form and without it. It is way easier with statue form. Its really easy to see why; you get a pip of rN+, immunity to rot, and halved damage from the incredible amount of torment spam. Halved action speed is really not a big deal when you take way less damage. Cause in the most dangerous parts of Tomb you have no way of avoiding being in sight of a huge number of enemies. When you're dealing with so many sources of damage, sacrificing speed for significant durability is a good thing. The fact that you have to move more in some parts of Tomb now is a nerf to it, I guess, but you'll be taking so much less damage it'll still be easier to use it than most other builds. The only time I've had any trouble with Tomb while using statue form is when I played badly out of sheer boredom and took dumb risks to go faster. Also you should be concerned that a low number of players actually clear Tomb. Not because of its difficulty, but because it represents the clear problem that you keep ignoring; its not fun. Barely anyone wants to put up with the tedium of clearing it. The fact that you guys made a chance that makes it more tedious to clear is ridiculous.
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May 17, 2017 06:41
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PlasticAutomaton posted:...So. 26 characters not using good gods, undead, or necromut, and you didn't rule out the other common way of cheesing tomb, Statue Form. The number doesn't really mean much when you don't know how many characters tried and failed. In the end though the real matter is this: Internet Kraken posted:Nobody is saying new Tomb is impossible though. People are pointing out that you made it more dangerous without making it any more enjoyable. That's not a positive change. If the staircase change had come with significant revisions to Tomb layouts so you don't regularly face open arenas with 6+ tormenting mummies in LoS it would be much more palatable. I would vastly prefer a Tomb that had perpetual -Tele, one way hatches, and Tomb Wardens to lock doors but breaks up most of the greater mummies and priests into groups of 2-3 instead of huge blocks. The T1 entry gate is (for me) the most interesting part of Tomb because you need to manage the potential for multiple caster mummies (but not an excessive number) and your only options for cover are the gate and a large open space behind you. Its a lot more interesting than the T2 and T3 entrances where you go down and see 6 tormentors plus friends, go up taking 1-2 enemies with you, kill them, rest to recover the 70% hp you lost to torments in steps 1-3, repeat. And the problem isn't really the stairdancing, the problem is that any player is going to immediately back out of a situation where several tormentors have LoS and in those ambushes the only safe exit route is the stairs. It's like entering a pan portal and landing in the lord vault.
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May 17, 2017 06:41
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Honestly, and has been said before, the biggest problem with Tomb (and extended) as a whole is that only real challenge is torment plus some form of unavoidable damage (damnation or smite). Moving the stairs in tomb did nothing to make the interactions more interesting, just more risky. No, I do not have an idea on making extended less of a slog (one I enjoy but can see the faults in).
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May 17, 2017 06:48
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Gammafunk, doesn't your suggestion on how to do tomb (using up-hatches and teleporting) basically amount to... resource-consuming, less-convenient stairdancing?
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May 17, 2017 07:04
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quote:The T1 entry gate is (for me) the most interesting part of Tomb because you need to manage the potential for multiple caster mummies (but not an excessive number) and your only options for cover are the gate and a large open space behind you. Those aren't your only options for cover, you forget that the outer walls on Tomb:1 are rock, so you can use a kill hole. That Tomb:1 entry generally leads to a lot of luring I find, which really isn't too interesting on its own. quote:And the problem isn't really the stairdancing, the problem is that any player is going to immediately back out of a situation where several tormentors have LoS and in those ambushes the only safe exit route is the stairs. It's like entering a pan portal and landing in the lord vault. Even when stair-dancing was a thing, it was extremely common to see people teleport on Tomb:2, and it was also not at all uncommon to see good players move into the nearby room (after mapping and using fog/haste/blink/translocations) to deal with the relatively light Tomb:2 mob. Now that the traditional stair-dance is gone, those tactics will be more prominent, and yes you can do more gradual re-use of stairs, but I wouldn't prefer this tactic relative to other options as often as I preferred stairdancing in the old layout. Beyond the statueform badwiki advice and extremely dubious claims about what it is in fact now "impossible" in tomb going on in this thread, I see this change as a nice iteration on Tomb's theme that evens out some of the tactics used and gives another thing to make the branch distinct. It's not an all-encompassing rework of Tomb that adds the perfect balance of challenging monster spells with just the right amount of Torment. That could be a cool thing to sit down and do, which maybe I'll have time for some day, but there are other things I and the other active devs would like to work on. It would also be neat to have more systematic use of layout so tomb wasn't quite so fixed, but that too is a lot of work. If any of you are really unhappy with Tomb in any meaningful way, the best thing you can possibly do is try to work on a patch that tries to compromise between what Tomb currently is and where you would like it to be. I will be busy doing my last content before feature freeze and then feature freeze/release/tourney after that, so I will be ranting in this thread a bit less, but will be around. Hopefully we can merge Floodkiller's Gnoll 2.0 patch soon so that can get some play-testing/feedback in trunk. Good luck to those playing in the tourney, especially all of you with an inferior splatratio to mine (that's everyone in this thread)!
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May 17, 2017 07:21
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