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They're nice goodies, but nowhere near automatic permanent invisibility, I think. The aura affects all creatures so allies now have to keep cold/fire resistance around (which is easy, but if you get resistance, you're not getting something else), if you don't have a way to mitigate difficult terrain by level 30 I don't even know, and the air bubble would be more of an RP thing in our games. Creating difficult terrain and solid surfaces look the most useful. e: and congrats on level 30 
My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 16:25 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 16:22
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My Lovely Horse posted:They're nice goodies, but nowhere near automatic permanent invisibility, I think. The aura affects all creatures so allies now have to keep cold/fire resistance around (which is easy, but if you get resistance, you're not getting something else), if you don't have a way to mitigate difficult terrain by level 30 I don't even know, and the air bubble would be more of an RP thing in our games. Creating difficult terrain and solid surfaces look the most useful. I'm gonna have to bone up on the DCs of breaking walls & stuff, I suppose.
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May 11, 2017 16:31
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If you treat each square of wall as a medium object, it has only 20 HP, 40 if it's stone. I don't think that's anything at Epic. It does eat up actions to break through, though, which is good control indeed. I guess it's a good idea to hash out the limits of "such as stone or wood" before your Planeshaper acquires the nickname "ol' adamantium wall" 
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May 11, 2017 16:40
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My Lovely Horse posted:If you treat each square of wall as a medium object, it has only 20 HP, 40 if it's stone. I don't think that's anything at Epic. It does eat up actions to break through, though, which is good control indeed. There's no 1/round limit, so she could just go for a full 27 squares of stuff by skipping her move and standard. Every round. (I think I might add a 1/round limit  )
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May 11, 2017 16:47
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As long as you can block line of sight and line of effect with walls at will, I think that's even more of a nightmare to play around than permanent invisibility. It would, with correct timing, make the character extremely difficult to target or hit.
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May 11, 2017 19:45
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TheDemon posted:As long as you can block line of sight and line of effect with walls at will, I think that's even more of a nightmare to play around than permanent invisibility. It would, with correct timing, make the character extremely difficult to target or hit. Notably, it doesn't seem to let you remove a wall once you build it. (Or remove any walls/floors for that matter.) In addition, she is a slower and frequently indecisive player who has trouble planning her rounds until she sees the exact layout on her own turn. So I am hoping this amount of flexibility doesn't slow things too much further.
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May 11, 2017 20:06
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I wouldn't worry about power level at 30, because the game is engineered to be advantageous to players, and they're level 30 and not all of the stuff is that rough. Like permanent pseudo-invisibility is going to give them permanent CA (a thing you can achieve at level 1 if so inclined) and a defensive bonus against some attacks, in practical terms. It's always the striker's job to make themselves difficult to retaliate against.
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May 11, 2017 20:15
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Also, don't area/close attacks completely ignore the penalty to hit a hidden/invisible target? If they're getting too big for their britches you could use some enemies with those attacks.
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May 11, 2017 20:43
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Dick Burglar posted:Also, don't area/close attacks completely ignore the penalty to hit a hidden/invisible target? If they're getting too big for their britches you could use some enemies with those attacks. Ya. Tons of stuff will have auras and all kinds of build-negating bullshit in epic. Everything teleports, arbitrarily shuts down abilities with no recourse, etc.
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May 11, 2017 20:50
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Yep, but this adventure path seems to believe this is continued challenge rather than a victory lap. I'm just preparing my expectations. I should have several chances to see them in action before the climax(es)
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May 11, 2017 21:13
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If I was putting together a fun randomiser tactics challenge for me and a friend, and wanted to randomly generate 4e powers (using a RandomInCategory on the 4e wiki) and needed a couple of builds to fill in defences, and what [W] is, what would you guys find to be a satisfying amount of hits? I'm thinking base can take about 4-5 regular hits (2.5 enc, 1 daily and an at-will) while being a defender would add about 2 to that and a striker would take about the same away. Both trading damage and speed for health and defenses specifically. I was going to take Strike!'s 2/3 base hit rate, and modify as need be. Any suggestions? Powers will be rolled randomly as such: Get Powers (this URL: http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Special:RandomInCategory) Roll 5 At-Wills, drop 2: At-will_powers Roll 4 Encounter Powers, drop 2: Encounter_powers Roll 3 Daily Powers, Drop 2: Daily_powers Roll 3 Feats, drop 2: Feats EDIT: I'm thinking probably 3v3 PVP for this because that's short and I doubt more than him and I would be interested.
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May 12, 2017 05:36
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Goons, what are some good ways to charop a blackguard? I know, I know, lol Heroes of Shadow. But I like the theme and the mechanics are mildly interesting. I know frostcheese is basically required to do good damage, and I know you can go tiefling/human to pick up a CHA-based at-will and dump STR but that just seems so weird to me since all the high-damage dailies are STR-based. Hybridizing is ok too. I keep trying to decide if blackguard|warlock is worth doing (also if it's any better than paladin|warlock) and I keep waffling on the issue because I can't decide how I want to design it, with more focus on melee or optimizing eldritch blast. Any ideas?
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May 13, 2017 22:05
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Dick Burglar posted:Goons, what are some good ways to charop a blackguard? I know, I know, lol Heroes of Shadow. But I like the theme and the mechanics are mildly interesting. I know frostcheese is basically required to do good damage, and I know you can go tiefling/human to pick up a CHA-based at-will and dump STR but that just seems so weird to me since all the high-damage dailies are STR-based. Hybridizing is ok too. I keep trying to decide if blackguard|warlock is worth doing (also if it's any better than paladin|warlock) and I keep waffling on the issue because I can't decide how I want to design it, with more focus on melee or optimizing eldritch blast. Any ideas? cunning stalker is a must-have feat. beyond that, blackguard is one of the classes that the fighter multiclass gouge kit grafts onto nicely. surprising charge at paragon is huge, although you'll be terrible MAD going for it. from there it's your call whether you want to go frost or mark of storm for polearm momentum/deadly draw shenanigans. gouge builds are kind of MAD but pretty fun from level 1, as long as you're not already sick of polearm fighter multiclass builds comedy option: morninglord works decently well with blackguards, just like it does for every weapon user who can take it
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May 14, 2017 00:56
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You could do Blackguard/Fake Skald which seems workable and kinda fun
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May 14, 2017 01:19
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You can go heavy radiant as a human blackguard|executioner hybrid with Virtuous Strike, which is basically rolling the same attack forever. Not the most exciting of builds but it does the job, especially if you have an attack-granter in the party. You can MC fighter or rogue depending on what weapon type you use, or go bard or warlock and do some fun stuff with Power of Arcana Virtuous Strike.
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May 14, 2017 01:53
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Dick Burglar posted:Goons, what are some good ways to charop a blackguard? I know, I know, lol Heroes of Shadow. But I like the theme and the mechanics are mildly interesting. I know frostcheese is basically required to do good damage, and I know you can go tiefling/human to pick up a CHA-based at-will and dump STR but that just seems so weird to me since all the high-damage dailies are STR-based. Hybridizing is ok too. I keep trying to decide if blackguard|warlock is worth doing (also if it's any better than paladin|warlock) and I keep waffling on the issue because I can't decide how I want to design it, with more focus on melee or optimizing eldritch blast. Any ideas? Frostcheese tiefling human or half elf charge op basically. There's not any other way to get them good, and even the paladin's 'high damage' dailies, aren't.
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May 14, 2017 08:47
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Man. Why do blackguards and hexblades have to be crappy*? Both have neat flavor, and mechanics that aren't easily replicated by better, less poorly-designed classes. I miss the warlock feat that gave you a pact blade  * Rhetorical question. I know it's because it's written by Mearls. Cease to Hope posted:cunning stalker is a must-have feat. beyond that, blackguard is one of the classes that the fighter multiclass gouge kit grafts onto nicely. surprising charge at paragon is huge, although you'll be terrible MAD going for it. from there it's your call whether you want to go frost or mark of storm for polearm momentum/deadly draw shenanigans. gouge builds are kind of MAD but pretty fun from level 1, as long as you're not already sick of polearm fighter multiclass builds If you go frostcheese instead of polearm momentum, couldn't you multiclass rogue instead (or pick up the worthless cyclone warrior MC feat) to pick up surprising charge? That way you can ignore wisdom altogether and be less MAD. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 18:43 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 17:53
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Dick Burglar posted:Basically I've been playing a lot of Guild Wars 2 and really like the necromancer/reaper's death shroud mechanic where it acts as a secondary health bar or a buffer to their health bar. Also World of Warcraft blood death knights' vampirism-style healing but that's not really done in 4E. The closest thing I know of is the martial vampire feat, and you have to twist yourself in knots with half elf dilettante trying to make that work without dumping your healing surges. You can do something like a rogue|vampire and end up being surprisingly tough, despite your few surges. You can definitely outlast something like an Avenger or a regular Rogue that doesn't have their surge regeneration mechanic, and the rogue half of the build gives you solid striker performance. Baseline surges is two. Martial Vampire gives you one the first time in an encounter that you hit with a martial encounter power and one the first time you get bloodied in an encounter. The Vampire encounter power Blood Drinker also gives you an extra surge, so you can generate three surges per fight trivially. If you end a fight with more than two surges, you heal to full and go back to two surges. When bloodied, you get ChaMod regeneration. If you play it right, use defensive utilities, build correctly, and don't mind running it a bit close some times, the rogue|vampire can be running smoothly when the rest of the party is on their last legs. Your only real weakness is if the GM decides to just absolutely dump on you to force you to mass burn surges, and that can gently caress you. But really, you're still not THAT much more hosed than a 7 surge striker would be if the GM decided to poo poo all over them that way, and you're in a far better position to recover from it than they are.
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May 15, 2017 19:01
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Dick Burglar posted:If you go frostcheese instead of polearm momentum, couldn't you multiclass rogue instead (or pick up the worthless cyclone warrior MC feat) to pick up surprising charge? That way you can ignore wisdom altogether and be less MAD. because fighter multiclass comes with lots of other great stuff, like the Dreadnaught PP and power swaps. plus 13 wis means getting the fighter multiclass feat from MP, which is just a good feat in its own right
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May 15, 2017 21:00
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If you're not going to hit epic, I like the Draeven Marauder PP for this kind of thing because the L11 feature gives all spears a 19-20 crit range so you get bonus crit range on your gouge without having to spend the weapon property on it which lets you take a Rending Gouge so that crits give you an MBA. Also the big thing about Battle Awareness is that it gives you an off-turn MBA, which is by far the best multiclass feat bonus you can get. Cyclone Warrior is an adequate substitute if you don't want to spend the points on Wis but still want access to sweet fighter feats and paragon paths.
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May 15, 2017 21:45
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Dick Burglar posted:Man. Why do blackguards and hexblades have to be crappy*? Both have neat flavor, and mechanics that aren't easily replicated by better, less poorly-designed classes. I miss the warlock feat that gave you a pact blade Basically you either want Gouge or Rapier. MC Fighter via Battle Awareness if you can get it, purely for the extra attack, and yeah, surprising charge, charge kit go now. I had the worst luck with mine though, mostly because I kept bringing his face-and-intrigue rear end on delves, and my 'is that a food gimme' berserker on face mods. It was annoying.
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May 15, 2017 23:06
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I'm just really disappointed that it comes down to the shittiest charop methods to make them work. Charge spam is goofy and dumb. Also I forgot that blackguards didn't get a level 1 daily because that'd be OP or something. What the gently caress, Mearls. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 23:27 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 23:12
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I know its entirely unrelated to blackguard but my favorite "essentials class" is playing a PHB1 Ranger with that feat that lets me replace an At-will with the actually pretty loving sweet ranger basic attack option. Which has really revived my interest in Shoot Arrows Human for many doomed low level starts with my long time friends inviting other friends. "Hmm, So I STILL have twin strike, and another normal good at-will. And now my Ranged basic attack has a multiple choice option of knock prone, slide, or save ends slow. Holy poo poo that's really good and interesting and will actually help all game. AND I don't have to play an essentials class!" It also lets me spite some random class review I once read about 4th Ed Ranger being garbage. It spends the first half of the review talking about how loving awesome rangers and all their abilities are!... And spends the rest of the review bitching about how horrible that is because you're shooting arrows, not wizard! Not realistic! Shooting dragons out of the air is bullshit! Stawman argument against anyone bringing up that part in the Hobbit! etc. But mostly I'm glad it lets me feel less selfish hanging back and shooting from a normally safe distance if I can gently caress with enemies in a way that makes the melee guy's lives so much easier as an on demand option. I'm the wierdo black mage who thanks the tanks in pickup groups when I binge on FF14
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May 16, 2017 02:22
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quote:frostcheese I remember going on the 4e charop board about removing frostcheese from a build, and how much it would affect the build, and the only response to my question was "There's no such thing as frostcheese." It wasn't the least helpful response I've ever, given, but Anyway, isn't the mage an essentials class?
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May 16, 2017 02:28
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May 16, 2017 02:32
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Gharbad the Weak posted:I remember going on the 4e charop board about removing frostcheese from a build, and how much it would affect the build, and the only response to my question was "There's no such thing as frostcheese." The remark is glib and unhelpful, but that response largely comes from the fact that as charop goes, "frostcheese/permafrost" is incredibly tame.
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May 16, 2017 03:08
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I am in physical pain right now.
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May 16, 2017 22:18
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Splicer posted:I am in physical pain right now.
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May 16, 2017 22:39
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Mike Mearls is a bad person with bad ideas.
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May 17, 2017 00:42
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Mordiceius posted:Mike Mearls is a bad person with bad ideas. That's pretty much the long and short of it. quote:frostcheese While "frost damage specialist" is still a thing because of how powerful and valuable elemental damage is, most of what made "frostcheese" special is...not special anymore. There's a lot of FAR easier ways to get CA now, and "I do five extra damage AFTER I attack them" has lost a lot of value now that 4e meta is and forever will be all about alpha strikes. Using frost weapons and the gloves and the feats and all is probably still sort of a thing, it got usurped pretty hard by lightning (if Dragonmarks are allowed), radiant (though mostly at epic), and fire (can you use heavy blades and add fire damage without requiring a weapon?).
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May 17, 2017 13:43
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Gharbad the Weak posted:Anyway, isn't the mage an essentials class? That said, it's also a clear case of power creep, but what are you going to do? It and the handful of other wizard subclasses they released after were just a sign of the coming 5e caster supremacy.
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May 17, 2017 16:16
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Gharbad the Weak posted:Anyway, isn't the mage an essentials class? The Mage is "good" because it's a Wizard at a time when Essentials was trying to make 4e look as much like 3e as possible. So the Mage is still an AEDU class, but none of the martials are anymore.
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May 17, 2017 16:22
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Speaking of, has anyone played the Witch or Sha'ir classes? What are they like? Is there any meaningful distinction between them and your standard Wizard, or were they literally just an excuse to shovel out more Wizard powers?
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May 17, 2017 16:53
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P.d0t posted:Speaking of, has anyone played the Witch or Sha'ir classes? What are they like? Both are still fundamentally wizards, though, and the differences will be minor.
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May 17, 2017 18:03
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ProfessorCirno posted:That's pretty much the long and short of it. Well, you're perhaps forgetting that you can stack a lot of those things--it's not necessary to be just an alpha striker or just radiant or just frostcheese, and +5 damage + CA is gigantic at any level and overwhelming at most.
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May 17, 2017 18:37
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Witch is a crappier version of sha'ir. If you want to make a witch, make a sha'ir instead.ProfessorCirno posted:That's pretty much the long and short of it. What all goes into the fire damage build? It came about kinda after I stopped following 4E meta progression. I know Firewind Blade is used but I know there's way more than that. Edit: does Firewind Blade's property still apply if you use it as a weapliment? It says "you hit one or more targets with this weapon" so I'm inclined to say no since it specifies "weapon" but I dunno. And I wonder if the daily power's "melee attacks" applies to implement Melee Touch attacks like monk attacks, since it doesn't specify "melee weapon attacks." Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 19:37 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 18:49
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dont even fink about it posted:Well, you're perhaps forgetting that you can stack a lot of those things--it's not necessary to be just an alpha striker or just radiant or just frostcheese, and +5 damage + CA is gigantic at any level and overwhelming at most. Yes, but the point is, there are far easier ways to GET +5 damage and +CA. Hell, CA more or less became a done thing with Cunning Stalker (thanks, Essentials?). If you are going to use a lot of slides, or need to GENERATE slides, Lightning is better (IF Dragonmarks are allowed). At Epic, Radiant is going to do far more damage due to Stupid Shenanigans. And if you use heavy blades and can ensure fire damage without requiring a fire weapon, Firewind Blade could end up being even more powerful. Again, I'm not saying that cold optimization is bad. It's still very much the baseline; it's what you go to if you aren't already tuning in to a different element, as EVERYONE can use it at any time. It's just not really cheesy anymore. There's been a good amount of power creep, and it's just kinda...well, again, it's kinda baseline. Dick Burglar posted:Witch is a crappier version of sha'ir. If you want to make a witch, make a sha'ir instead. What goes into the fire damage build? Lots of dumb. The thing to understand is that, by late 4e, the meta had changed to largely revolve around two things: alpha strikes and multiple attacks. See, the 4e ranger had always been supremely powerful (if boring) due to their multi-hit powers. By late 4e, it turned into a bizarre scavanger hunt to find as many powers that you could sorta arguably define as being multihit. The reason these are so valuable is because each hit triggers all your various damage modifiers. And the big one? Vulnerability. See, a feat can add +3 damage at EPIC. A dragonshard can add +5 damage at EPIC. A really powerful weapon at EPIC is +6. But vulnerability? The right theme can give you an aura that gives everyone around you vulnerability. That aura alone gives you +15 damage to every hit. A good amount more then +3! Which leads us into Firewind Blade (which incidentally does work with non-melee, as you are hitting an enemy with fire damage using that weapon. Is it equipped? Cool you're using it). Every time you hit someone with the blade and do fire damage, an enemy adjacent to you takes 1+(enchantment) fire damage. Except they're vulnerable to fire now. so they take 26+(enchantment) fire damage. Every time you hit with the weapon. Not every ATTACK you make, every time you HIT. And you can choose who takes the fire damage. So you charge at the boss and pull off a move that lets you attack three dudes. That boss just took 45+ fire damage even if you never attacked HIM with any of those attacks. That's JUST from Firewind Blade. Now you figure each actual attack you just made ALSO pinged vulnerability. And then you use your Minor attack. Which pings vulnerability twice, again. And the catch is, even if you can't grant vulnerability, it's still a free +6 damage to anyone around you every hit. If you're fighting minions, every hit is two dead. Granted, having access to ki foci and using Rain of Hammers might be better for that, but still. Hey, do both!
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May 17, 2017 22:26
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I found a level 6 daily utility on the Firecrafter theme that creates a vulnerable 5 fire aura. Where are you getting vulnerable 15, or how are you getting +15 damage?
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May 17, 2017 22:42
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There is a theme that has a vulnerability aura at level 1. Limited to Fey
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May 17, 2017 22:52
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Sarifal Feywarden aura scales with tier e: But doesn't work with firewind blade because it specifies attacks so uhhhh e2: Not that fire's not really good, because it is, but Firewind Blade plus theme vulnerability has never worked TheDemon fucked around with this message at 23:03 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 23:00
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