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delfin posted:The close-enough-to-be-the-exception is Dr. Simon Ecks, aka Doctor Double X. Dr. O. Octavius is also not accurately named.
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May 18, 2017 03:24
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sbaldrick posted:I love Galactic Storm, maybe the first really great Marvel space story.
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May 18, 2017 06:06
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Wait, Galactic Storm was like in 1992 and you think that's the first good Marvel space story? Uh, no.
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May 18, 2017 06:55
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What the gently caress is with these people saying they like Galactic Storm. Am I asleep? Is this Nightmare's doing?
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May 18, 2017 08:54
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Edge & Christian posted:The Island stuff was later, the basic lineage of Avengers (which was also the first book I started collecting as a little kid, Seldom Posts!) was that Roger Stern took it over from Jim Shooter way back with issue 227 in late 1982. Over time he got sick of having his stuff derailed by whatever was going on in [Cap/Thor/Iron Man/whatever] and so he really leaned into having most of the team be b-listers without their own titles. This was when there was a whole lot of focus on Wasp, Captain Marvel, Black Knight, Hercules, Namor, Vision, Scarlet Witch, etc. GPTribefan posted:Holy poo poo, Are you me?? High-fives to all the old school Stern fans. In retrospect I really appreciate the cool stuff he did with the neglected characters, particularly women. You'll never convince me that the Wasp is not a badass after the way she ran the Avengers. That issue where she and Scott Lang fight Absorbing Man and Titania is one of my all time favs.
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May 18, 2017 14:58
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sbaldrick posted:I love Galactic Storm, maybe the first really great Marvel space story. What? Monica as written by Stern is fucken awesome. Also all of Stalin cosmic stuff is so much better than Galactic Storm
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May 18, 2017 15:40
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Stern has possibly the second-best Spider-Man run after Lee/Ditko/Romita but he never seems to get the recognition.
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May 19, 2017 00:02
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Wheat Loaf posted:Stern has possibly the second-best Spider-Man run after Lee/Ditko/Romita but he never seems to get the recognition. I'm confident that when any fan reads his run they recognize. Something that may keep the spotlight off his run (if that's even true) is that his Amazing didn't really use classic villains. They were all over in Spectacular and the other titles.
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May 19, 2017 00:11
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Lobok posted:Something that may keep the spotlight off his run (if that's even true) is that his Amazing didn't really use classic villains. Entirely deliberate on his part according to the foreword to his omnibus et al. The only classic villain he used was the Vulture, because the Vulture was his favourite from when he was a teenager.
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May 19, 2017 00:19
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I think everyone after the Romita era but before McFarlane is relatively unknown to the more casual fans. It's really not an issue of quality or "recognition" it's just, the early stuff gets reprinted and touted a lot because it started it all, and then there's the stuff people read as kids in the 90s or later, and what's coming out now, and the average reader is not particularly interested in delving into the glut of issues from before they were born.
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May 19, 2017 00:23
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Here's a quick recap of what happens in nineteen (more if you count preludes and epilogues) issues of OPERATION GALACTIC STORM: 1) Some Shi'ar are like trying to collect a bunch of Macguffins to build a SUPERWEAPON to destroy the Kree, who they went to war with off-panel. 2) The Avengers succeed in stopping them from collecting a few Macguffins, but the Shi'ar have spare Macguffins and are able to build the NEGA-BOMB, a bomb that is made of the Negative Zone or something but somehow required a bunch of other poo poo to make. 3) Some Avengers go to the Shi'ar homeworld to ask them to stop fighting. Others go to the Kree homeworld to ask THEM to stop fighting. Neither teams succeeds. 4) Deathbird murders a bunch of people in the Kree government so the Supreme Intelligence pops up and goes HEY I'M THE LEADER NOW. 5) The NEGA-BOMB is on its way to Kree territory but before it goes off it turns out that Skrulls had infiltrated Shi'ar government and tricked them into going to war. 6) Oh a different group of Skrulls stole the bomb so even though the Shi'ar don't want to bomb the Kree anymore the Skrulls still do. 7) And then the Skrulls successfully bomb the Kree and kill off like 95% of the people in multiple galaxies with this super duper bomb. I can't remember the captions say billions or trillions die, but it's a loving lot. 8) Then the Supreme Intelligence gloats that this was his plan ALL ALONG, and somehow he manipulated the Skrulls into manipulating the Sh'iar into manipulating the Kree into going to war so that this Rube Goldberg device of poorly described events could take place so that 95% of the Kree Empire is killed... because he's jealous of other races being able to have mutants, Kree can't have mutants but he bets that anyone who survives this bomb will be able to mutate in all sorts of cool ways. 9) Then the Avengers take a vote about whether or not it's okay to try to destroy this AI that is literally laughing in their face about how they helped him kill billions/trillions of people and he's going to get away with it and there's nothing they can do and etc. Some Avengers decide it's probably better to kill the Supreme Intelligence, but a bunch (Cap, Hawkeye, BLACK WIDOW) decide that killing is wrong, even in times of war. Even in times of galactic genocide. Even when the war criminal in question is literally just a techno-organic amalgamation of a bunch of dead brains. 10) I have no idea, right afterwards the West Coast Avengers break up and get canceled, and form FORCE WORKS the extreme pro-active version of the Avengers, but the schism there doesn't align at all with Those Who Kill and Those Who Don't. I'm pretty sure the Kree Empire comes back within a couple of years. The Supreme Intelligence doesn't even stay dead for an entire issue, and is shown getting downloaded into a different planet like five pages after the momentous CHOICE FOR AVENGERS TO KILL. I don't think any of the d-list characters who get killed off in the series stay dead, no one did anything with all the new Kree Mutants, it was a bad story with a bad plot that accomplished nothing. I think the best illustration of Operation Galactic Storm's quality is that they build half an issue around the reveal that Hawkeye is deemed "not powerful enough" to go into space because "all he has is a bow and arrow" (other people who are part of the Space Team: Captain America with his shield, Black Knight with his sword) so Hawkeye storms out, comes back and is all HEY GUYS REMEMBER IN THE KREE-SKRULL WAR WHEN I WAS GOLIATH FOR LIKE THREE ISSUES? GUESS WHAT, I GOT HANK TO GIVE ME SOME GOLIATH JUICE, I'M GOLIATH AGAIN, LET'S GO TO SPACE. And then he's like... there. Like he grows big for a couple of pointless fight scenes, but there's nothing in the entire nineteen issues that affects the story or him as a character that he's wearing a different outfit and like he takes out fuckin' Ch'od from the Starjammers with a giant hand instead of a net arrow. And then as soon as he gets back to Earth he basically goes WELL HEY IT WAS FUN TO BE GOLIATH LIKE BACK IN THE ORIGINAL KREE-SKRULL WAR BUT YOU KNOW, TIME FOR OL' HAWKEYE TO COME BACK LET'S FORGET ABOUT THAT GOLIATH BUSINESS, EH?
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May 19, 2017 01:38
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I hate you for reminding me of all that, but I will point out that there's a pretty big difference between killing during a war and executing a prisoner of war, even if he may or may not be "alive".
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May 19, 2017 01:51
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Isn't Marvel Boy a Kree mutant? I know he's technically from another universe, but was it one that had its own Operation Galactic Storm?
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May 19, 2017 02:33
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[quote 8) Then the Supreme Intelligence gloats that this was his plan ALL ALONG, and somehow he manipulated the Skrulls into manipulating the Sh'iar into manipulating the Kree into going to war so that this Rube Goldberg device of poorly described events could take place so that 95% of the Kree Empire is killed... because he's jealous of other races being able to have mutants, Kree can't have mutants but he bets that anyone who survives this bomb will be able to mutate in all sorts of cool ways. 9) Then the Avengers take a vote about whether or not it's okay to try to destroy this AI that is literally laughing in their face about how they helped him kill billions/trillions of people and he's going to get away with it and there's nothing they can do and etc. Some Avengers decide it's probably better to kill the Supreme Intelligence, but a bunch (Cap, Hawkeye, BLACK WIDOW) decide that killing is wrong, even in times of war. Even in times of galactic genocide. Even when the war criminal in question is literally just a techno-organic amalgamation of a bunch of dead brains. 10) I have no idea, right afterwards the West Coast Avengers break up and get canceled, and form FORCE WORKS the extreme pro-active version of the Avengers, but the schism there doesn't align at all with Those Who Kill and Those Who Don't. I'm pretty sure the Kree Empire comes back within a couple of years. The Supreme Intelligence doesn't even stay dead for an entire issue, and is shown getting downloaded into a different planet like five pages after the momentous CHOICE FOR AVENGERS TO KILL. I don't think any of the d-list characters who get killed off in the series stay dead, no one did anything with all the new Kree Mutants, it was a bad story with a bad plot that accomplished nothing. [/quote] The Kree came back a bunch in the Avengers in the next few years for REVENGE!!!! but the whole Supreme Intelligence plan didn't pay off until Busiek's run. He did that Live Kree or Die crossover which set up the whole Ru'ul thing. The Ru'ul were these weird newbies to the galactic council or whatever that pushed for earth to be a prison planet. Turns out the Ru'ul were the genetic perfections that the SI did all of this for - they literally lasted til the end of that crossover and haven't been seen since. They had weird shape-changing powers like Skrulls and were more ruthless than the old Kree, but did nothing to show that the SI avoided that whole "genetic dead end" thing. As far as the no killing thing goes - it's weird to me that they've ret-conned Cap into being pro-killing when the entire premise of his character was NO KILLING NO MATTER WHAT for the longest time. Hawkeye ended his marriage when he found out Mockingbird kinda sorta killed her rapist instead of saving him, and now he has no problem with icing people left and right. The team schism didn't last long, because Cap came back the next year for Bloodlines and the foil-embossed anniversary issues and even wondered aloud if the avengers shouldn't get more extreme like he Black Knight wanted.
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May 19, 2017 06:16
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HitTheTargets posted:Isn't Marvel Boy a Kree mutant? I know he's technically from another universe, but was it one that had its own Operation Galactic Storm? Noh-Varr was engineered, IIRC, not a mutation.
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May 19, 2017 06:20
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I think his universe's version of the Kree are actually genetically and culturally superior to humans in an immeasurable way instead of just constantly saying they are, too.
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May 19, 2017 06:27
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Lurdiak posted:I think his universe's version of the Kree are actually genetically and culturally superior to humans in an immeasurable way instead of just constantly saying they are, too. they still listen to their supreme intelligence so they can't be too superior.
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May 19, 2017 10:17
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GPTribefan posted:As far as the no killing thing goes - it's weird to me that they've ret-conned Cap into being pro-killing when the entire premise of his character was NO KILLING NO MATTER WHAT for the longest time. Hawkeye ended his marriage when he found out Mockingbird kinda sorta killed her rapist instead of saving him, and now he has no problem with icing people left and right. I'm oversimplifying, but not all that much, when I say that 9/11 basically broke superhero comics in a way there wasn't any easy coming back from, if indeed anyone even wanted to.
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May 19, 2017 12:12
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GPTribefan posted:The Kree came back a bunch in the Avengers in the next few years for REVENGE!!!! but the whole Supreme Intelligence plan didn't pay off until Busiek's run. He did that Live Kree or Die crossover which set up the whole Ru'ul thing. The Ru'ul were these weird newbies to the galactic council or whatever that pushed for earth to be a prison planet. Turns out the Ru'ul were the genetic perfections that the SI did all of this for - they literally lasted til the end of that crossover and haven't been seen since. They had weird shape-changing powers like Skrulls and were more ruthless than the old Kree, but did nothing to show that the SI avoided that whole "genetic dead end" thing. I think that was Maximum Security; Live Kree Or Die was the set-up story for it (along with parts of Avengers Forever) which crossed over Avengers with Captain America, Iron Man and, for some reason, Quicksilver by John Ostrander. It also included Carol Danvers getting court martialled for being drunk on a mission.
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May 19, 2017 12:38
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think that was Maximum Security; Live Kree Or Die was the set-up story for it (along with parts of Avengers Forever) which crossed over Avengers with Captain America, Iron Man and, for some reason, Quicksilver by John Ostrander. It also included Carol Danvers getting court martialled for being drunk on a mission. I remember that Quicksilver run being pretty good-- in my head that little micro-era of Marvel just after Onslaught is just, like, that, the Simonson/Ferry Warlock (although looking it up that was a bit later), the Ostrander/Ferry Heroes for Hire, and Mike Wieringo on Sensational Spider-Man. Oh and that initial run of Thunderbolts. Just a nice, clean, kind of European look.
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May 19, 2017 14:00
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Lurdiak posted:I hate you for reminding me of all that, but I will point out that there's a pretty big difference between killing during a war and executing a prisoner of war, even if he may or may not be "alive".
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May 19, 2017 14:41
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Archyduke posted:I remember that Quicksilver run being pretty good-- in my head that little micro-era of Marvel just after Onslaught is just, like, that, the Simonson/Ferry Warlock (although looking it up that was a bit later), the Ostrander/Ferry Heroes for Hire, and Mike Wieringo on Sensational Spider-Man. Oh and that initial run of Thunderbolts. Just a nice, clean, kind of European look. Sure, the Heroes Return era. Everything had a cover that looked sort of like a glossy magazine for a while (e.g. all those Salvador Larocca FF books).
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May 19, 2017 15:21
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:they still listen to their supreme intelligence so they can't be too superior. Well he's way smarter too.
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May 19, 2017 18:15
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Shock of shocks! Steve Englehart not happy that Mantis didn't single handedly save everyone in Guardians of the Galaxy 2. http://www.cbr.com/mantis-steve-englehart-guardians-of-the-galaxy-2/
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May 19, 2017 20:01
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X-O posted:Shock of shocks! Steve Englehart not happy that Mantis didn't single handedly save everyone in Guardians of the Galaxy 2.
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May 19, 2017 20:16
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"Why didn't they get deeper into her background as a humble ex-prostitute who learned kung fu so that she could try to seduce all of the male Avengers and make the female Avengers jealous in this movie?"
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May 19, 2017 20:34
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X-O posted:Shock of shocks! Steve Englehart not happy that Mantis didn't single handedly save everyone in Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Can help but think of how Stan Lee handles Spider-Man being dumber and less useful than a brick every day in his newspaper strip.
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May 19, 2017 20:40
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Lurdiak posted:Well he's way smarter too. supreme intelligence is smart in the dumbest way possible. he's like the newspaper spiderman of cosmic marvel.
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May 19, 2017 21:29
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:supreme intelligence is smart in the dumbest way possible. he's like the newspaper spiderman of cosmic marvel. Not the other universe version!!!!
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May 19, 2017 22:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think that was Maximum Security; Live Kree Or Die was the set-up story for it (along with parts of Avengers Forever) which crossed over Avengers with Captain America, Iron Man and, for some reason, Quicksilver by John Ostrander. It also included Carol Danvers getting court martialled for being drunk on a mission. That's what I meant, that it led into Maximum security. There was a time, kids, where Marvel actually went TWO FULL YEARS without a line wide crossover and advertised it as such!! It was actually a cool crossover with a weird premise - use the guise of punishing earth and making it a prison planet to turn earth into Ego and eliminate both threats at once. The only downsides were how they tried to make USAgent the ultimate badass authority figure and the awful Jerry Ordway art on the main mini....
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May 19, 2017 22:40
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event books almost always suck but they sell well, by modern standards. that's just how it is.
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May 19, 2017 23:17
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That's because marketing is laser focused on them and readers have been trained to believe they "matter" more than regular books.
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May 19, 2017 23:18
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It's interesting how the idea that stories "matter" has come to be so important. Surely it can't be a recent phenomenon, though? It's not just to do with comics; it's visible in most media that tends to have a lot of tie-ins or supplementary material. Consider: the post-Disney Star Wars EU has done things that were widely-mocked when the pre-Disney EU did them without raising as many eyebrows, because it's all canon now, and that apparently means a great deal to people. Or the incessant arguments you used to see in which people were peculiarly fervent that AoS really mattered in the larger context of the MCU.
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May 19, 2017 23:32
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GPTribefan posted:As far as the no killing thing goes - it's weird to me that they've ret-conned Cap into being pro-killing when the entire premise of his character was NO KILLING NO MATTER WHAT for the longest time. Cap being an absolutist about never killing never made sense anyway. He was a super-soldier in WWII. He'd be pretty crappy at his job if he hadn't killed some dudes. Edit: Some interesting discussion of this here: http://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-so-did-captain-america-kill-people-during-world-war-ii-or-what/ Basically, the idea the Captain America doesn't kill people is a retcon that only goes back to 1986, and since got re-retconned. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:42 on May 20, 2017 |
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May 20, 2017 02:30
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Silver2195 posted:Cap being an absolutist about never killing never made sense anyway. He was a super-soldier in WWII. He'd be pretty crappy at his job if he hadn't killed some dudes. Captain America was usually portrayed as someone who would greatly prefer not to kill but recognizes that it's sometimes the only recourse. It is a bit strange how kill and maim-happy some modern superheroes have gotten compared to their past incarnations, Hawkeye standing out amongst them.
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May 20, 2017 02:52
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Yeah, the way to look at Cap is he's not going to execute anyone, and killing would be a last resort, but he'll do it if it needs to be done.
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May 20, 2017 02:53
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May 20, 2017 02:59
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If I remember correctly, the "no killing" rule was one of Jim Shooter's editorial edicts, and for the non-X-Men part of the Marvel Universe, it survived into the Tom DeFalco era through plot momentum. It got quietly put out to pasture around the time that Quesada became editor-in-chief, although it still crops up at odd times here and there.
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May 20, 2017 03:10
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Jim Shooter was such a rube.
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May 20, 2017 03:17
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Isn't the second one Cap decapitating (ha) Baron Blood? Not so much killing as re-deadifying.
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May 20, 2017 03:26
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