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jokes posted:I am all about getting real autismal about this game and this is how I view decisions on bringing wizards, based loosely on economics. Of course then you have poo poo like Vampire lore, where bringing a level 4 Necromancer equals bringing 6 units of zombies/skeletons AND a better life wizard and bringing level 12 Necromancer equals bringing 6 units of zombies/skeletons, a better life wizard AND a potential to instagib 3-6 enemy units with a single Winds of Death spell....
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# ? May 18, 2017 23:26 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 20:02 |
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Yeah, people really underestimate the power of magic ITT. It is always worth bringing one mage along with an army in MP and SP even without the hilariously overbuffed mods unless you're playing on Ultra unit sizes. It offers insane utility even then Like you're usually not wiping out whole units in a single spell. But things like Bjuna can take off 60% of a units HP, Nets can trap cav so they can't cycle charge and yoy can wipe them out, summons can lock down missiles or do crazy morale damage through rear charging etc.
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# ? May 18, 2017 23:31 |
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CA's reimagining of the Kroxigor is pretty fantastic, I always thought the TT models looked a bit goofy, and not in a fun or cool way. The weapon tied to their hands was kind of charming, but I don't think I'll miss that. I hope they bite dudes in combat, how rad would it be to see a Kroxigor do a death roll on some poor Empire soldier.
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# ? May 18, 2017 23:43 |
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Lt. Lizard posted:Of course then you have poo poo like Vampire lore, where bringing a level 4 Necromancer equals bringing 6 units of zombies/skeletons AND a better life wizard and bringing level 12 Necromancer equals bringing 6 units of zombies/skeletons, a better life wizard AND a potential to instagib 3-6 enemy units with a single Winds of Death spell.... True, but at least vampires are SUPPOSED to be incredibly powerful wizards and fighters in the lore. Empire wizards (and almost all other wizards) train their entire life and are still only mostly able to just help build buildings, transmute lead to gold or something, or sling a couple fireballs but not too many because they get booboos. An immortal vampire lord raises armies of necromantic titans, dragons, ghosts, and calls upon centuries of training and meditation to sling pure death at other nerds. I still think all magic needs a buff though.
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# ? May 19, 2017 00:07 |
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Just had the Battle of Gonti Mingol, with the modded custom maps (and a ton of other mods slapped on too, because why not? This vision of Gronti Mingol (its one of the coastal Badlands cities pretty far south, in this case among the first to get attacked by Bjornlings during the Chaos invasion) has the map consist of the attacker deploying in a dense scrub forest, emerging to have to traverse three bridges. The defender gets a HUGE advantage here, unusual for these maps which normally take some measures to make it balanced for attacker/defender. As you'll see in the screenshot they give you this series of bluffs which are great for positioning artillery to rain absolute hell on attackers trying to cross that first bridge. The map is also freakishly huge. I positioned my artillery along the cliffs to fire at enemies trying to cross my bridge, and did a bombing run with my gyrocopters against all the enemies clumped together while crossing. The real VIPs here were the two units of Rangers which really punched above their weight. One unit was intended to be a spotter and the AI basically just kind of ignored them, allowing them to unload all their ammo and harass enemies that were retreating back from the bridge. The other was on the other end of the bridge intended mainly to stall and exhaust the forces. Both were intended to be suicidal units, but they ended up doing a lot better than I anticipated. My plan was just to thin their forces out to make their main push on my force weaker, but I ended up inflicting 700 casualties from the rangers, bombers, and artillery alone and they got so crippled that by the time they were trying to make their final push, it only took one volley of quarreler bolts on their lead trolls to cause the whole army to rout. My insanely defensible position. With this map layout I could've repelled an enormous force beyond the one I faced; my cannons alone barely used a quarter of their ammo in this bloodbath. From this height cannonballs were dropping down at a pretty steep angle on the Bjornlings heads. Up on this position I had a Gob Lobber RoR and pictured are Cannons of Zhufbar (modded RoR unit that gives them Ballistics Calibration baked in). They did good. A screaming Gobbo sez 'ello to a Bjornling lord currently getting strafed by Gyrocopters My Gyrocopter bombing run. Pictured is a half-strength unit of Gyrocopters and Skyhammer. The specks in the background are goblin 'assisted' projectiles on their way to their targets.
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# ? May 19, 2017 00:15 |
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MilitantBlackGuy posted:CA's reimagining of the Kroxigor is pretty fantastic, I always thought the TT models looked a bit goofy, and not in a fun or cool way. The weapon tied to their hands was kind of charming, but I don't think I'll miss that. I hope they bite dudes in combat, how rad would it be to see a Kroxigor do a death roll on some poor Empire soldier. Their design for the Lizardmen in general seems more influenced by the art than the actual models. Dinosaurs riding dinosaurs is cool and all, but then they look like this which is kind of doofy. Dark Elf riders have that newer model, though.
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# ? May 19, 2017 01:13 |
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Mordja posted:Their design for the Lizardmen in general seems more influenced by the art than the actual models. Dinosaurs riding dinosaurs is cool and all, but then they look like this Hello darkness, my old friend.
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# ? May 19, 2017 01:22 |
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Kokoro Wish posted:
He's got that saurus drumming right by his ear all loving day, I don't blame him tbh.
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# ? May 19, 2017 01:32 |
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YOURE AS COLD AS ICE YOU'RE WILLING TO SACRIFICE OUR LOVE YOU NEVER GIVE ADVICE SOME DAY YOU'LL PAY THE PRICE, I KNOW...
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# ? May 19, 2017 01:36 |
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madmac posted:Nah, if wizards were that ineffective for cost they'd see almost no use in MP and the exact opposite is true-People very rarely build an army in competitive MP without bringing a wizard. Wizards can and often do swing battles when used well and even a cheapo wizard with one spell is accessing a resource you'd otherwise be completely unable to tap into. the key to why wizards are good is because they allow you to make/prevent breakthroughs that could not otherwise be made/prevented. you cannot pack a double-strength unit of greatswords into the space normally occupied by one unit of greatswords, but through the miracle of Flaming Swords, followed by a well-timed fireball to the heart of the target formation, you can punch a hole in an enemy formation that the second unit of greatswords would not have been able to. let alone the subtle, beautiful magic of taking a charging unit of heavy cavalry, hitting it with Net of Amyntok, and eating it alive.
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# ? May 19, 2017 03:26 |
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The long beastman campaign objective really should be tweaked. I'm on like turn 300 of a campaign now. It probably wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the varg and skaeling becoming peaceful and not actually ever attacking anybody.
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# ? May 19, 2017 03:28 |
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jesus christ did something happen because I restarted this last attempt at the Empire like four times and it is being brutally hard and hectic, also marienburg gets 3 stacks
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# ? May 19, 2017 03:34 |
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dead comedy forums posted:jesus christ did something happen because I restarted this last attempt at the Empire like four times and it is being brutally hard and hectic, also marienburg gets 3 stacks Yeah its a clusterfuck but its fun. Heres how to cheese the Marienburg superstack: declare war on them, leave your closest settlement undefended, and have your army waiting to ambush. They will invariably send their stack to take your town except they wont have enough to move to take it, and so even if your ambush fails they are now out of position and easy to destroy
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# ? May 19, 2017 03:52 |
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jokes posted:I am all about getting real autismal about this game and this is how I view decisions on bringing wizards, based loosely on economics. Nah, the manpower value you use is fake precision. For one if you really want a one dimensional value for a unit you could use the gold cost. And that tells you little. That here is the main point though: Ze Pollack posted:the key to why wizards are good is because they allow you to make/prevent breakthroughs that could not otherwise be made/prevented. you cannot pack a double-strength unit of greatswords into the space normally occupied by one unit of greatswords, but through the miracle of Flaming Swords, followed by a well-timed fireball to the heart of the target formation, you can punch a hole in an enemy formation that the second unit of greatswords would not have been able to. let alone the subtle, beautiful magic of taking a charging unit of heavy cavalry, hitting it with Net of Amyntok, and eating it alive. You can't really look at the contribution of one unit in isolation in a game were moral effects stack and chain routes and flanking are a thing.
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# ? May 19, 2017 04:06 |
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babypolis posted:Yeah its a clusterfuck but its fun. Heres how to cheese the Marienburg superstack: declare war on them, leave your closest settlement undefended, and have your army waiting to ambush. They will invariably send their stack to take your town except they wont have enough to move to take it, and so even if your ambush fails they are now out of position and easy to destroy I'd appreciate some newbie advice on starting out as the Empire, too. I took the thread's advice and started with Karl Franz to learn the ropes but switched to messing around with Brettonia and the VCs since the latter two seem to have much easier starting positions. I get lost after the first five or so turns as Empire since they're surrounded by stronger enemies. Here's what I did the couple times I played them: Upgrade recruiting building in Altdorf to get crossbows by turn 3, follow quests to attack the secessionist army, take Grunburg, quest battle in the forest. That's all easy. Then I dunno what to do or who to attack after that. Marienburg, apparently? Thanks! Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 04:29 on May 19, 2017 |
# ? May 19, 2017 04:26 |
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Pellisworth posted:
Well you gotta take all of Reikland first, eliminate the secessionists asap, after that you can CHOOSE what you want to do. You can take Marienburg, you can try and play the diplomatic game with your Empire & Bretonnian Neighhours or you can go on the warpath. But again before you do anything of the sort you must solidify your powerbase and that is Reikland: Altdorf, Grunburg, Helmgart and Eilhart. Once you own all theese regions you get a province-wide effect. I would also suggest you wall up the towns in the province asap as well, makes it easier to defend and you can also launch assaults with some confidence that you won't lose any ground.
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# ? May 19, 2017 04:55 |
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As sadistic as it sounds, I hope Empire gets progressively harder and harder as new races are released because that would be a really unique experience. Most people are used to the 'human' faction being 'easy' mode but by Warhammer III its going to be ultra mega sadistic death mode difficulty at the rate its going.
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# ? May 19, 2017 05:12 |
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Panfilo posted:As sadistic as it sounds, I hope Empire gets progressively harder and harder as new races are released because that would be a really unique experience. Most people are used to the 'human' faction being 'easy' mode but by Warhammer III its going to be ultra mega sadistic death mode difficulty at the rate its going. No loving kidding, it *was* easier, with additional chaos stuff coming up better Franz have some "incarnation of Sigmar" skill to make up for it
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# ? May 19, 2017 05:28 |
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Panfilo posted:As sadistic as it sounds, I hope Empire gets progressively harder and harder as new races are released because that would be a really unique experience. Most people are used to the 'human' faction being 'easy' mode but by Warhammer III its going to be ultra mega sadistic death mode difficulty at the rate its going. I agree but they better add things to just round them out a bit here or make them more balanced, or give the LLs a revamp at least. They still need to make pistols and outriders worth using, and they should probably give them another higher tiered infantry unit or two, maybe some rat catchers or Imperial Foot, or some way of attaching cool captains to regiments. There was a mod that's now defunct that added reiksguard halberd infantry, sword/shields, and reiksguard handgunners. They were honestly not that out of place, and they were lore appropriate. But they completely invalidated greatswords. I didn't mind. gently caress greatswords. jokes fucked around with this message at 05:50 on May 19, 2017 |
# ? May 19, 2017 05:47 |
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dead comedy forums posted:jesus christ did something happen because I restarted this last attempt at the Empire like four times and it is being brutally hard and hectic, also marienburg gets 3 stacks In my last Empire run I ignored Marienburg until after I'd already taken Sylvania, at that point you can pretty much just zerg or lightning strike them down. The GC as a whole was pretty funny though. While I was dealing with Chaos/Skaeling/Varg all by myself (stop tunnel visioning me you fucks), Tilea somehow became #1 and took over Border Princes, the southern Empire provinces and a bunch of other poo poo, and I completed the campaign objectives by allying with them. Also Top Knotz killed both Greenskins and Dwarfs and took over Badlands.
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# ? May 19, 2017 07:57 |
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dead comedy forums posted:No loving kidding, it *was* easier, with additional chaos stuff coming up better Franz have some "incarnation of Sigmar" skill to make up for it If they do lift one thing from End Times, it could be the Ascendant stuff. Franz embodies the Winds of the Heavens, and thus gets the ability to lightning bolt motherfuckers and basically be a demigod. And Empire doesn't even get Valten or Luthor Huss. I'm a very passive player when I play Empire. Except Marienburg I never declare on factions, mostly because that tends to get others pissy and causes a steamroll effect. Also, I just don't have the stamina to do a long warpath. I think it's better money-wise to make them trade partners anyway, then confederate them one-by one. You really should just ignore Bretonia unless they start poo poo. Yeah, it's a bunch of territory you can have (And there's some unique buildings to get down there.) But... well it's just dickish to me, and anyway, the Vampires are right there. Hopefully, you can leave Nordland as it is, because they'll buffer against the Varg and Skaeling. If you install the Conquer/Outpost mod, then that's the only time I recommend wiping out the north. Otherwise it's dealing with way too much attrition and so slow. EDIT: Also consider Sarsnick for punching, he's good to get Karl's "Greenskin" requirement done.
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# ? May 19, 2017 08:43 |
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Yeah, I agree that ignoring Bretonnia is a good way to go, since you're gonna waste a lot of time for not much gain. Also fighting Bretonnia is harder than fighting vampires and makes little sense in the long run (you're supposed to get ready to fight Chaos). Better to just gobble up Empire provinces and the Vampires. Also, everyone should just get the instant quest battles mod. Basically, it makes it where when your LL reaches the requisite level, the quest battle just instantly opens up for you to teleport to (for only like 500g). You get to skip the bullshit like "defeat greenskins 5 times as Franz" or "deploy a witch hunter in this province" (which requires a T4 building you probably shouldn't even build anyways). I got really sick of wasting 20 turns (and all that upkeep, and missed opportunities to boost income, etc.) sending my only wizard to the badlands to fulfill a quest objective. Definitely get that mod. Here it is
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# ? May 19, 2017 16:40 |
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The way they should have done magic was to have a dynamic, scaling effect. So a formula like this : spell damage/radius/duration x ((level multiplier) + (gear/follower multplier)). Spells that are already strong might have little to no multipler, but some that are currently not worth the cost in winds become a lot more powerful. The changes that happen as you level up could also vary depending on the nature of the spell. Fireball would get a LOT stronger on a high level caster, Searing Doom would rain down more projectiles, some buffs would last a lot longer and stack with themselves, and legendary caster items would actively enhance spell damage. Caster lords could then be defined apart from their hero counterparts by having better level multipliers on their spells, making them do more damage with the same spell at a given level. This helps really define Gelt, who will be using metal magic at a stronger degree than metal wizards. Gelt should also get a special version of Final Transmutation as a reusable skill that acted similar to malagors special ability. It would debuff the target and do some damage over time, and if the (non lord) target was at 20%hp or lower they'd instantly get turned into golden statues. This makes Gelt decent at finishing off big monsters or annoying fearless units.
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# ? May 19, 2017 16:58 |
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quote:If a wizard uses all of his winds of magic to kill an entire unit's worth of models all by himself, he's probably not as useful as simply bringing another unit, since another unit likely could have done the same, and generated a larger margin of manpower by providing some other value, for example by continuing to fight for the rest of the battle Ignoring everyone else's good points, this just isn't a sensible statement to make. The average unit will fight another average unit and only win by losing basically all its units, meaning you have to rebuild it from scratch or wait a bunch of turns to replenish. An unit that can kill an entire enemy unit without taking any damage is, considering nothing else, a pretty drat above average unit. If your entire army was made up of units the same power as wizards, who can each kill one opposing unit taking no damage, then that is a *perfect army*.
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:17 |
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Panfilo posted:Just had the Battle of Gonti Mingol, with the modded custom maps... Are you just using the Grand Campaign Custom Maps mod, or is it some other map pack?
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:21 |
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Gejnor posted:Well you gotta take all of Reikland first, eliminate the secessionists asap, after that you can CHOOSE what you want to do. You can take Marienburg, you can try and play the diplomatic game with your Empire & Bretonnian Neighhours or you can go on the warpath. Helmgart should get the walls first and foremost. It's been fairly consistent for me that a few turns after I unify Reikland and start looking for my next target, the Beastmen come rolling up to raze Helmgart to the ground. It's usually a tense battle if I don't have my main stack there. Walls would make it a nonissue.
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:36 |
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I tend to try to ambush the Beastmen at Helmgart.
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:37 |
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Fangz posted:I tend to try to ambush the Beastmen at Helmgart. it is the best place to kill them early imho Or they are going to the mountains and get their faces full of dwarf bolts or if they take too long bretonnia will sort their poo poo out, which usually means they hop in reikland by turns 8-12
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:39 |
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Wallet posted:Are you just using the Grand Campaign Custom Maps mod, or is it some other map pack? Pretty sure it's the grand campaign custom maps pack. There are a TON of different maps. All the capitals are unique, and only a few is each races small settlements gets repeated.
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:42 |
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Pellisworth posted:I'd appreciate some newbie advice on starting out as the Empire, too. I took the thread's advice and started with Karl Franz to learn the ropes but switched to messing around with Brettonia and the VCs since the latter two seem to have much easier starting positions. I get lost after the first five or so turns as Empire since they're surrounded by stronger enemies. Your infantry recruitment building should be built in a settlement, not your capital. First turn should recruit 3 units of swordsmen from Altdorf. Move Karl to the border with Grunberg (staying inside Altdorf territory), but don't attack. Let the AI engage you with its force there, its an easy victory. Then engage the remnants of that defeated army, then take Grunberg. Take the Empire Sec settlements in order then grow your province enough to have l2 walls on all your settlements while ambush-baiting Marienberg. Take Marienberg and its settlement as soon as possible. Be aware depending on what the AI does the beastmen might attack from the West and Skullsmashers will almost certainly bypass Marienberg to attack you from the north around turn 8-12. Your early army should be mostly swordsmen (make sure you use Sigmar's Sons as your principle engagement unit; they are unbreakable and quickly replacable), with crossbowmen and free company militia as your ranged-flankers. I personally like FCM a lot, they're sturdy as both melee and ranged in the early game. One stack should be able to do all the conquering you need until you have 2 provinces.
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:46 |
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Fangz posted:Ignoring everyone else's good points, this just isn't a sensible statement to make. The average unit will fight another average unit and only win by losing basically all its units, meaning you have to rebuild it from scratch or wait a bunch of turns to replenish. An unit that can kill an entire enemy unit without taking any damage is, considering nothing else, a pretty drat above average unit. If your entire army was made up of units the same power as wizards, who can each kill one opposing unit taking no damage, then that is a *perfect army*. I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another. For example, a standard usage of crossbows is to gat down enemy ranged units while melee units are fighting. When they win, they then go on to gat down someone else, probably in aid of the melee troops. So, a unit of crossbows can beat roughly 2 units per card if used correctly. But if a wizard can only reliably take out a single card on their own which is already a tall order (outside of certain lores), just replace it with something that does more. Or a good wizard, like shadow, death, or life.
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# ? May 19, 2017 17:47 |
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jokes posted:I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another. Seriously dude, there's no lore of magic in the game bad enough to not be better than taking an extra unit of crossbows.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:04 |
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madmac posted:Seriously dude, there's no lore of magic in the game bad enough to not be better than taking an extra unit of crossbows. Light minus net comes close, but, well. Net.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:08 |
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If anyone is interested, I've just updated Rebanner to add musicians to the game, which are mechanically just a different name for banners, but each of them provides automatically activating buffs when the assigned unit does certain things or is in certain situations. Here's a few examples: I'd be interested to hear what people make of them. Also, if anyone else who deals with modding stuff (Gejnor?) has any idea what determines the order in which abilities show up on items, I'd love to hear it. It seems completely inconsistent but it can't possibly be random. Panfilo posted:Pretty sure it's the grand campaign custom maps pack. There are a TON of different maps. All the capitals are unique, and only a few is each races small settlements gets repeated. Thanks, I'll have to try that out.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:14 |
Wallet posted:If anyone is interested, I've just updated Rebanner to add musicians to the game, which are mechanically just a different name for banners, but each of them provides automatically activating buffs when the assigned unit does certain things or is in certain situations. Here's a few examples: That's super cool, but is it possible to tinker with the files to add actual drums and horns for when the ability fires?
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:18 |
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I'm doing mousillon with a faction unlocker and fighting Bretonnia is really hard. I'm spamming the poo poo out of skeletal spearmen but even that isn't enough to let me stand up to the heavily armored Bret cavalry that just cycle charges me to death. What will help?
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:31 |
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jokes posted:I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another. The mistake you're making is assuming the enemy ranged unit doesn't shoot back.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:34 |
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Wallet posted:If anyone is interested, I've just updated Rebanner to add musicians to the game, which are mechanically just a different name for banners, but each of them provides automatically activating buffs when the assigned unit does certain things or is in certain situations. Here's a few examples: Oh poo poo, how did you modify accuracy with the elven horn-blower? I wanted to add that to a dwarf lord talent but couldn't find it anywhere.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:39 |
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jokes posted:I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another. If you're going to sperg out this hard you should realize that a wizard in melee is on par with basic infantry and so by your theory would be on par with the crossbows.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:41 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 20:02 |
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I think you're underestimating buffs and debuffs, particularly in multiplayer where they're the name of the game. Even if a wizard doesn't get a single kill, if he empowers a few units to quickly finish their fight and flank other regiments, or weaken large amounts of enemies that'll let your entire front break through quickly and start tearing up the backline then he's already paid for himself.
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# ? May 19, 2017 18:43 |