jokes posted:

I am all about getting real autismal about this game and this is how I view decisions on bringing wizards, based loosely on economics.

Let's break the game down into this thought experiment: the theoretical variable "manpower" is the aggregate combat value of all of your troops. In a match, the loser is the person whose manpower is reduced to 0 because of routing/crumbling/dying, etc., or whose manpower is lowest at the end of the time of the round.

When a unit loses some capability to fight (say, from loss of health, ammunition, models, vigor, etc.) their manpower (and the army's) is reduced because they are not in as good of fighting shape anymore. Because you cannot kill units without expending some amount of manpower (though stamina can regenerate on its own). Therefore, over the course of a battle each army is expending manpower in order to reduce the manpower of the other side by a greater value.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about : a unit of spearmen has a value of let's say 200 manpower. By fighting a unit of light cavalry worth 200 manpower, they will end up losing some troops and expending their stamina and at the end of it, the spearmen will kill all the light cavalry but will have lost half their dudes doing it. So, they cost their opponent 200 manpower by expending 100 manpower. The actual "number" of manpower is irrelevant, it's just a relative variable. But they generate a margin of manpower here of 100 manpower (spent 100 manpower to cost the opponent 200). As the battle rages, the theoretical manpower resource goes up and down according to what's happening in the fight.

Now let's say a bunch of swordsmen fight a bunch of zombies with no general. The zombies have manpower that is roughly equal to the swordsmen, and they're just gonna all duke it out and fight to the death. But the swordsmen have a wizard hero. The player controlling the wizard hero has a bunch of options in the form of spells. The wizard is useless in a fight, but he CAN use spells to generate a margin of manpower.

The player, without directly thinking about it in these terms, is determining which action will hurt his opponent the most or save his units the most manpower-- he's seeking to create as big of a margin as he can with the spells. The only issue is, bringing a wizard means you're not bringing some other unit.

To justify bringing a wizard, that wizard needs to do things that would create a margin of manpower between the two parties that is in excess of the additional manpower that bringing another similarly priced unit would have provided. (I'm into economics: he's essentially comparing the net present value of the wizard's capabilities versus the net present value of some other unit's capabilities).

If a wizard uses all of his winds of magic to kill an entire unit's worth of models all by himself, he's probably not as useful as simply bringing another unit, since another unit likely could have done the same, and generated a larger margin of manpower by providing some other value, for example by continuing to fight for the rest of the battle. Therefore, a wizard that only does nuke spells just aren't worth it. They can't do enough damage to justify bringing them over some other similarly priced fighting unit. Some spells do a LOT of damage and are kind of worth it. Winds of death, pit of despair, etc., to name a few.

A wizard that brings buff spells also often doesn't provide enough value, because outside of spells like Flaming Sword of Rhuin, the spells are shortlived and have weak effects and he only gets like 5 casts of them over the entire battle. Flaming Sword of Rhuin is good because it lets you gat down ghosts and trees, but that's a very situational usage. In any event, remember that when you kill units with magic, you're saving the vigor, health, and ammunition of whoever else would have needed to kill it.

A life wizard is nice because he'll likely be able to provide enough healing that more than an entire unit's worth of health can be regenerated, which means it is providing >1 unit's worth of manpower, so life wizards are usually always worth bringing.

At the end of the day, when you analyze the potentialities of unit choices you'll see that wizards are flashy and cool but 9 times out of 10, you'll have greater success and a higher return on your investments of money, time, and attention by just bringing some demigryphs instead.

tl; dr: Wizards have a very low RoI compared to other units, and over the full course of a battle/campaign, a unit of similarly priced units will offer better value than a wizard. Don't bring wizards. Install Gejnor's magic mod, it makes wizards worth it.

Lt. Lizard posted:

Of course then you have poo poo like Vampire lore, where bringing a level 4 Necromancer equals bringing 6 units of zombies/skeletons AND a better life wizard and bringing level 12 Necromancer equals bringing 6 units of zombies/skeletons, a better life wizard AND a potential to instagib 3-6 enemy units with a single Winds of Death spell....

MilitantBlackGuy posted:

CA's reimagining of the Kroxigor is pretty fantastic, I always thought the TT models looked a bit goofy, and not in a fun or cool way. The weapon tied to their hands was kind of charming, but I don't think I'll miss that. I hope they bite dudes in combat, how rad would it be to see a Kroxigor do a death roll on some poor Empire soldier.

Mordja posted:

Their design for the Lizardmen in general seems more influenced by the art than the actual models. Dinosaurs riding dinosaurs is cool and all, but then they look like this

which is kind of doofy.

Kokoro Wish posted:

Hello darkness, my old friend.

Kokoro Wish posted:

madmac posted:

Nah, if wizards were that ineffective for cost they'd see almost no use in MP and the exact opposite is true-People very rarely build an army in competitive MP without bringing a wizard. Wizards can and often do swing battles when used well and even a cheapo wizard with one spell is accessing a resource you'd otherwise be completely unable to tap into.

By all means use mods if you want them to be stronger, but you can extract a lot of value out of them even in vanilla.


Closer to Warhammer's release, missile spells were much more powerful, which resulted in a bunch of wizards on flying mounts shooting bolts at each other until someone got the first hit and won the game.

Consequently they got nerfed into the ground, then buffed into the stratosphere again, and then more gently nerfed to their current state, where they tend to be not quiiiiite worth their cost most of the time.

dead comedy forums posted:

jesus christ did something happen because I restarted this last attempt at the Empire like four times and it is being brutally hard and hectic, also marienburg gets 3 stacks

jokes posted:

I am all about getting real autismal about this game and this is how I view decisions on bringing wizards, based loosely on economics.


tl; dr: Wizards have a very low RoI compared to other units, and over the full course of a battle/campaign, a unit of similarly priced units will offer better value than a wizard. Don't bring wizards. Install Gejnor's magic mod, it makes wizards worth it.

Ze Pollack posted:

the key to why wizards are good is because they allow you to make/prevent breakthroughs that could not otherwise be made/prevented. you cannot pack a double-strength unit of greatswords into the space normally occupied by one unit of greatswords, but through the miracle of Flaming Swords, followed by a well-timed fireball to the heart of the target formation, you can punch a hole in an enemy formation that the second unit of greatswords would not have been able to. let alone the subtle, beautiful magic of taking a charging unit of heavy cavalry, hitting it with Net of Amyntok, and eating it alive.

babypolis posted:

Yeah its a clusterfuck but its fun. Heres how to cheese the Marienburg superstack: declare war on them, leave your closest settlement undefended, and have your army waiting to ambush. They will invariably send their stack to take your town except they wont have enough to move to take it, and so even if your ambush fails they are now out of position and easy to destroy

Pellisworth posted:

Here's what I did the couple times I played them:

Upgrade recruiting building in Altdorf to get crossbows by turn 3, follow quests to attack the secessionist army, take Grunburg, quest battle in the forest. That's all easy. Then I dunno what to do or who to attack after that. Marienburg, apparently?

Thanks!

Panfilo posted:

As sadistic as it sounds, I hope Empire gets progressively harder and harder as new races are released because that would be a really unique experience. Most people are used to the 'human' faction being 'easy' mode but by Warhammer III its going to be ultra mega sadistic death mode difficulty at the rate its going.

Panfilo posted:

As sadistic as it sounds, I hope Empire gets progressively harder and harder as new races are released because that would be a really unique experience. Most people are used to the 'human' faction being 'easy' mode but by Warhammer III its going to be ultra mega sadistic death mode difficulty at the rate its going.

dead comedy forums posted:

jesus christ did something happen because I restarted this last attempt at the Empire like four times and it is being brutally hard and hectic, also marienburg gets 3 stacks

dead comedy forums posted:

No loving kidding, it *was* easier, with additional chaos stuff coming up better Franz have some "incarnation of Sigmar" skill to make up for it

quote:

If a wizard uses all of his winds of magic to kill an entire unit's worth of models all by himself, he's probably not as useful as simply bringing another unit, since another unit likely could have done the same, and generated a larger margin of manpower by providing some other value, for example by continuing to fight for the rest of the battle

Panfilo posted:

Just had the Battle of Gonti Mingol, with the modded custom maps...

Gejnor posted:

Well you gotta take all of Reikland first, eliminate the secessionists asap, after that you can CHOOSE what you want to do. You can take Marienburg, you can try and play the diplomatic game with your Empire & Bretonnian Neighhours or you can go on the warpath.

But again before you do anything of the sort you must solidify your powerbase and that is Reikland: Altdorf, Grunburg, Helmgart and Eilhart. Once you own all theese regions you get a province-wide effect. I would also suggest you wall up the towns in the province asap as well, makes it easier to defend and you can also launch assaults with some confidence that you won't lose any ground.

Fangz posted:

I tend to try to ambush the Beastmen at Helmgart.

Wallet posted:

Are you just using the Grand Campaign Custom Maps mod, or is it some other map pack?

Pellisworth posted:

I'd appreciate some newbie advice on starting out as the Empire, too. I took the thread's advice and started with Karl Franz to learn the ropes but switched to messing around with Brettonia and the VCs since the latter two seem to have much easier starting positions. I get lost after the first five or so turns as Empire since they're surrounded by stronger enemies.

Here's what I did the couple times I played them:

Upgrade recruiting building in Altdorf to get crossbows by turn 3, follow quests to attack the secessionist army, take Grunburg, quest battle in the forest. That's all easy. Then I dunno what to do or who to attack after that. Marienburg, apparently?

Thanks!

Fangz posted:

Ignoring everyone else's good points, this just isn't a sensible statement to make. The average unit will fight another average unit and only win by losing basically all its units, meaning you have to rebuild it from scratch or wait a bunch of turns to replenish. An unit that can kill an entire enemy unit without taking any damage is, considering nothing else, a pretty drat above average unit. If your entire army was made up of units the same power as wizards, who can each kill one opposing unit taking no damage, then that is a *perfect army*.

jokes posted:

I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another.

For example, a standard usage of crossbows is to gat down enemy ranged units while melee units are fighting. When they win, they then go on to gat down someone else, probably in aid of the melee troops. So, a unit of crossbows can beat roughly 2 units per card if used correctly. But if a wizard can only reliably take out a single card on their own which is already a tall order (outside of certain lores), just replace it with something that does more. Or a good wizard, like shadow, death, or life.

madmac posted:

Seriously dude, there's no lore of magic in the game bad enough to not be better than taking an extra unit of crossbows.

Panfilo posted:

Pretty sure it's the grand campaign custom maps pack. There are a TON of different maps. All the capitals are unique, and only a few is each races small settlements gets repeated.

Wallet posted:

If anyone is interested, I've just updated Rebanner to add musicians to the game, which are mechanically just a different name for banners, but each of them provides automatically activating buffs when the assigned unit does certain things or is in certain situations. Here's a few examples:

I'd be interested to hear what people make of them.

Also, if anyone else who deals with modding stuff (Gejnor?) has any idea what determines the order in which abilities show up on items, I'd love to hear it. It seems completely inconsistent but it can't possibly be random.

jokes posted:

I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another.

For example, a standard usage of crossbows is to gat down enemy ranged units while melee units are fighting. When they win, they then go on to gat down someone else, probably in aid of the melee troops. So, a unit of crossbows can beat roughly 2 units per card if used correctly. But if a wizard can only reliably take out a single card on their own which is already a tall order (outside of certain lores), just replace it with something that does more. Or a good wizard, like shadow, death, or life.

Wallet posted:

If anyone is interested, I've just updated Rebanner to add musicians to the game, which are mechanically just a different name for banners, but each of them provides automatically activating buffs when the assigned unit does certain things or is in certain situations. Here's a few examples:

I'd be interested to hear what people make of them.

Also, if anyone else who deals with modding stuff (Gejnor?) has any idea what determines the order in which abilities show up on items, I'd love to hear it. It seems completely inconsistent but it can't possibly be random.


Thanks, I'll have to try that out.

jokes posted:

I didn't really consider the effects after the map of replenishing things, but yeah that's absolutely true. I just notice that, with the exception of cheap tarpits, most good units will ultimately end up beating one unit and then go on to contributing to beating another.

For example, a standard usage of crossbows is to gat down enemy ranged units while melee units are fighting. When they win, they then go on to gat down someone else, probably in aid of the melee troops. So, a unit of crossbows can beat roughly 2 units per card if used correctly. But if a wizard can only reliably take out a single card on their own which is already a tall order (outside of certain lores), just replace it with something that does more. Or a good wizard, like shadow, death, or life.