|
Phylodox posted:Meredith was special to Ego, and those feelings transferred to Peter. Yes, if I were a sociopathic murderer who fathered children with dozens of women and wanted one of them to cooperate with me that's exactly what I would tell them.
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 01:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 07:00 |
|
|
personally i don't think the solipsism ego shows in the movie makes him even capable of loving another being, not even meredith an alternate universe ego that actually sat down and decided to change his priorities after meeting meredith? sure, but the one we got was basically a virus masquerading as a person
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 01:51
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yes, if I were a sociopathic murderer who fathered children with dozens of women and wanted one of them to cooperate with me that's exactly what I would tell them. Well, that's what you're reading into the film. I guess there's nothing in the film that explicitly invalidates that view (except maybe that Ego chooses to try and win Peter over to his side rather than simply use him as a battery immediately), but it feels like that's more of a stretch than that he was being honest. EDIT: Brother Entropy posted:personally i don't think the solipsism ego shows in the movie makes him even capable of loving another being, not even meredith But that's why he murdered her, because her very existence was a threat to his entire world view. In the long run, beyond the initial infatuation, love is selfless. How can you be the most perfect, important being in the universe and care about another above yourself? Ego can care about others, but he ultimately chooses not to. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 01:59 on May 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 01:55
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:personally i don't think the solipsism ego shows in the movie makes him even capable of loving another being, not even meredith Certainly not in a selfless fashion, but it makes sense that it would be as close as a sociopathic deity could get. The virus comparison seems apt, it's not exactly groundbreaking, but a fair commentary on abusive parents.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 01:56
|
|
|
Filthy Casual posted:Certainly not in a selfless fashion, but it makes sense that it would be as close as a sociopathic deity could get. The virus comparison seems apt, it's not exactly groundbreaking, but a fair commentary on abusive parents. ehhhh, some of ego's stuff can be reminiscent of abusive parents/spouses but i feel like the underlying motivations are way too different for the pieces to fit together all that well e: which kinda goes back to my point of feeling like ego's cartoonishly alien sociopathy got in the way of the 'dads, am i right' theme
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:00
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:personally i don't think the solipsism ego shows in the movie makes him even capable of loving another being, not even meredith He doesn't even have to change his priorities long term. His rational makes no earthly sense. What's 50 years to a demigod? Ego was MILLIONS of years old. 50 years is a tiny speck. If he loved her he could have put poo poo on hold for a while to grow old with her. Then, when she died, he could have kept going with his master plan. In human terms, Ego basically kills his "true love" rather than push back his big project launch by a couple of days. Guess what? Ego gave all the moms cancer. He left them all, they all died, he had Yondu pick up all the kids, he killed them all. There's zero evidence that Meredith was treated any better than any of the others. Ego's justifications don't make any sense. All the evidence is that this guy had a system, and he ran it on everyone. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 02:06 on May 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:02
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:He doesn't even have to change his priorities long term. Loving another being was changing Ego. It was throwing his whole premise ("I am the best and everything should be me") into question. If he's perfect, how can he love something that isn't him? He couldn't just love Meredith and then merrily go back to his plan because she was calling his whole plan into question.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:06
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:I dunno, "I hurt you because I love you too much" is dysfunctional, but not inhuman. The whole thing about Ego is that he chooses to be a god, but he's a petty, selfish, egotistical god, and so actually ends up lessening himself by his choice. He's kind of a pathetic god. He wasn't, like, codependent with Peter's mom, though. It's more like someone who keeps themselves from buying chips, because if they're in the house they'll eat the whole bag. It's explicitly him paring off the human side of himself. Which pairs with that statement being his attempt to see if Peter can do the same.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:07
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:He couldn't just love Meredith and then merrily go back to his plan because she was calling his whole plan into question. Dude, according to you, that's exactly what he did.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:08
|
|
|
BTW I'm having a lot of fun discussing this and I hope you all are too!
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:11
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:He wasn't, like, codependent with Peter's mom, though. It's more like someone who keeps themselves from buying chips, because if they're in the house they'll eat the whole bag. It's explicitly him paring off the human side of himself. Which pairs with that statement being his attempt to see if Peter can do the same. I don't think they were codependent, but I think his love for Peter's mum was genuine. Genuine enough to frighten him. Certainly more than an unhealthy habit. I think Ego was partly feeling out Peter to see if he could think "big picture", but I think part of it was him honestly expressing regret (or trying to as much as he can). Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Dude, according to you, that's exactly what he did. He couldn't continue to love Meredith. Having realized his genuine feelings for her, he could choose to forsake his plan and live out his life and settle for being just, like, an immortal dude, or he could leave her, no, gently caress that, kill her so he could never change his mind, and become a god. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 02:15 on May 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:12
|
|
|
i wish we could've seen how ego treated his other kids; like, we know they all ended up dead but did he take some serious time to see if they could do his light magic with some training or was it just a quick neck snap the first time they gave up there's this one moment the first time peter pulls it off where ego gets really loving pumped real quick then dials it back to a chiller 'hey i knew you had it in you', you kinda see his composed facade break for a moment upon finally getting what he's been after for however millions or billions of years they said he's been doing this poo poo
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:13
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:i wish we could've seen how ego treated his other kids; like, we know they all ended up dead but did he take some serious time to see if they could do his light magic with some training or was it just a quick neck snap the first time they gave up I imagine he probably just went straight to energy-tentacle impaling with the other kids.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:17
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Yes? There's nothing mutually exclusive about loving one person and being callous about others. All of the other women (entities?) Ego had sex with were a means to an end, as were their children. Meredith was special to Ego, and those feelings transferred to Peter. In the movie he states that the only reason it worked with Meredith was that he loved her. Of course, that's coming from a lying heel with an ego literally the size of a planet whose looking at the one kid who worked and will now (he hopes) allow him to do what he really wants.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:20
|
|
|
Is there any place in the movie where Ego directly lies? I mean directly spews a verifiable falsehood.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:28
|
|
|
That's a good question. I might have to retract that bit. They really need to name the next movie Guardians of the Galaxy: Zune.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:35
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Loving another being was changing Ego. It was throwing his whole premise ("I am the best and everything should be me") into question. If he's perfect, how can he love something that isn't him? He couldn't just love Meredith and then merrily go back to his plan because she was calling his whole plan into question. Yeah. If he allowed himself to see another being as having value, it would put the validity of his entire plan into question. If there's fundamental value in the existence of other beings, then replacing those other beings with himself isn't a very good idea.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 02:40
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Dude, according to you, that's exactly what he did. He saw her 3 times and realized if he saw her again he'd give everything up for her. He understood that he was falling in love, starting to see someone else as valuable or even more valuable than himself, and decided to end it. The slow killing tumor both ended the temptation and allowed his plan to continue by letting Peter grow up in a safe environment from which he could be kidnapped and brought to Ego. The horrible, monstrous, act is the proof and the consequence of turning his back on "humanity" so as to remain divine. Brother Entropy posted:i wish we could've seen how ego treated his other kids; like, we know they all ended up dead but did he take some serious time to see if they could do his light magic with some training or was it just a quick neck snap the first time they gave up Probably gave them at least 3 chances before offing them. He did first get Peter to make light, then got him to manipulate it. So probably at least that long before dumping their body in Daddy's Little Disappointments Cave. I wonder if he used his power to create food for Mantis or if she had to eat failed demi-god goulash every day. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Is there any place in the movie where Ego directly lies? I mean directly spews a verifiable falsehood. Pretty sure he directly lies about Peter being his only child and Meredith being his only baby mamma. Though I'd have to see it again to make sure he wasn't just super fine line not technically lying. Everything was designed to both gain Peter's trust and slow walk him into being on team Ego. I wonder if Ego knew about the other Celestials and what he planned to do with all that inconvenient life that was out in space at the moment when he absorbed thousands of planets.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 05:34
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:I don't think they were codependent, but I think his love for Peter's mum was genuine. Genuine enough to frighten him. Certainly more than an unhealthy habit. I think Ego was partly feeling out Peter to see if he could think "big picture", but I think part of it was him honestly expressing regret (or trying to as much as he can). Ego can't truly love her and give her a long, slow death. Killing her off quick, while cruel, you could sell me on. The tumor? Nah. I think gunn wrote that part first and then wrote this movie and was like poo poo she had cancer in that first so I gotta make that fit somehow. And it doesn't. He either truly loved her, or he gave her a brain tumor. It can't be both. And because it is it makes no sense. This movie wanted to do too many things. Sometimes contradictory things. It got greedy and the story suffered because of it. GoldfishStew fucked around with this message at 07:48 on May 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 06:11
|
|
|
It doesn't work because he can't be a cruel soulless monster to the woman he loved and try to father Peter past the point of usefulness. If he were a monster, he'd go straight for the energy tentacle impale the instant he can summon the light ball. If he actually cared, he wouldn't give brain cancer. It's a needle they try to thread to make both the bonding and the heel turn work, but it doesn't really hold up.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 07:56
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Are people forgetting by the dude's own admission he banged a bunch of women on a bunch of planets, then kidnapped their kids and then murdered them when they weren't of any use to him and unceremoniously threw their corpses in a cave to rot? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajaejPsU7ok
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 10:48
|
|
|
GoldfishStew posted:Ego can't truly love her and give her a long, slow death. Killing her off quick, while cruel, you could sell me on. The tumor? Nah. I think gunn wrote that part first and then wrote this movie and was like poo poo she had cancer in that first so I gotta make that fit somehow. And it doesn't. Killing her quickly would have killed fetal Peter (dibs on the band name). Also, I would imagine there was maybe a punitive element to it, as well. She dared to make him love her, to threaten his Great Work, so he made her suffer for (what probably seemed, to him) a brief time. Again, him being genuinely in love with her doesn't preclude him still being a selfish, petty, vindictive rear end in a top hat. If he had stayed, she probably would have changed him (for the better), but he chose to be a god.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 13:53
|
|
|
Disagree that the movie didn't do it well. He had "human" parts and "god" parts and they conflicted. Just like in normal life people have selfish and selfless desires conflict all the time. And these conflicts break up families all the time.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 14:26
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:It doesn't work because he can't be a cruel soulless monster to the woman he loved and try to father Peter past the point of usefulness. If he were a monster, he'd go straight for the energy tentacle impale the instant he can summon the light ball. If he actually cared, he wouldn't give brain cancer. He cared about Peter insofar as he's half Ego. He didn't care about Peter's mom insofar as she's not half Ego.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 15:01
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:ehhhh, some of ego's stuff can be reminiscent of abusive parents/spouses but i feel like the underlying motivations are way too different for the pieces to fit together all that well Is it really that alien? poo poo, Trump used to knock his kids over when skiing down a hill because he couldn't handle them going faster. From my vantage point, Ego was always supposed to be the false father due to that sociopathy, and the "Dad's, am I right" part was with Yondu finally coming to grips with how he really felt about Peter. Speaking of Yondu, I've been ruminating about his mass murder on the Ravager ship lately. While it is most assuredly a murder fest, there does seem to be some stuff going on with it symbolically. It starts with him losing his way and being exiled from the Ravager Union by sly for doing really hosed up stuff and all the mutineers preferred those extreme methods, hating Yondu for going soft due to his bond with Quill. By throwing in with TASERFACE, they've relegated themselves to being as heartless as the Ronan's corpse/slave soldiers (who I'd count as people, at least as much as Nova's asterisk ship pilots), and are dispatched in a similar fashion. That was Yondu's first true attempt to address the evil within him, the second being his sacrifice to save Peter, as he was right about doing entirely too much evil to get an easy out. It's also refreshing to see a Marvel movie just show the drat murder already, instead of using exploding cars as a cop-out.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 15:04
|
|
|
Cinema Discusso: Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: Just show the drat murder already
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Jeez, sometimes I'm amazed how people who seem to care so much about a movie fail to understand the basic concepts presented in it. Specifically, the reason for Ego to abandon/kill his love was that he couldn't physically stay apart from his planet for prolonged periods of time. Ego says it. In the movie. If Peter's mom was still there he would've gone to her and never returned home, effectively commiting suicide. That's the reason he had to make the selfish decision to murder his love and abandon Peter. Because he would've died if he stayed on Earth.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
Saw the movie today, dug it quite a bit. I'm not sure it will be as rewatchable as the first film, but it's still a fun ride. In terms of marks against it, there were certainly some pacing issues with a lot of strange downtown left on screen. But once all of the pieces began to coalesce for the third act, that quickly fades to the back. Also, I don't know what it is about these silly movies with their tree men and raccoons, but both have managed to hit some serious emotional buttons for me. The whole bit with Drax and Mantis discussing Drax's daughter, and Mantis using her empathic powers to feel what Drax feels and just bursting into tears while he sits there all stoic is a great bit of character work, and lands beautifully.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 06:38
|
|
|
You guys are real dense about Ego's motivations. He had a chance to give up his godhood and live as a mortal and care about someone other than himself, and he was so scared by the fact that this idea even tempted him that he had to kill the person who made him feel that way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-tRXewCAmU His attempts to reach out to Peter are a combination of regret that he "had" to do this and his fundamental narcissism where he only considers people who are on his level, or even more specifically, part of him, to be real. He's lonely, and he wants a friend, but only if that friend is basically him. It's almost tragic, really. He wants to have companionship but is unable to see past himself, and threw away his one chance at a real family to continue pursuing this insane wrongheaded idea of replacing all life in the universe with him. I really loved the film, although I agree that they sort of overdid it with the "unexpected joke in a serious scene" thing a little bit. And the comic book nerd in me is upset the climax of the film didn't involve an angry planet chasing the spaceship while yelling at them with its planet mouth.
|
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 06:51
|
|
|
What you are failing to realize is that there is a difference between killing someone to get them out of the way and giving someone you love a long, drawn out, incredibly painful death. He didn't just kill her. He tortured her.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 08:57
|
|
|
He did. He is a bad person. Hence why Peter acted the way he did. Yet he did love her. He's just not a human being despite wanting to be. To him, he gave her a ticking time bomb that was sure to kill her eventually after Peter was born. He didn't much care how she died.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 09:00
|
|
|
No. He didn't love her. You don't give someone you love brain cancer. His character makes no sense and the heel turn only exists so we get Quills cool badass reaction.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 09:03
|
|
|
This same convo is going on in the Alien thread but uh, hosed up people do hosed up things to the ones they love.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 09:23
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:He did. Actually, this is a good point. He couldn't kill her straight away because Peter hadn't been born yet. So he gave her an expiration date. Being a living God Planet, I would totally buy that the suffering aspect either didn't come into it at all, because he's never experienced it, or he saw no distinction between a death that took 5 years and a death that took 5 seconds (Remember, he's millions of years old, time has very little relative meaning to him)
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 12:51
|
|
|
GoldfishStew posted:No. He didn't love her. You don't give someone you love brain cancer. His character makes no sense and the heel turn only exists so we get Quills cool badass reaction. people kill people they love every day.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 12:59
|
|
|
You always hurt the ones you love.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 14:36
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:This same convo is going on in the Alien thread but uh, hosed up people do hosed up things to the ones they love. Thanks for spoiling that movie in this thread, jerk.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 15:33
|
|
|
You do know the entire ship is filled with couples, right? Lots of love on that ship.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 18:15
|
|
|
You fools. There is a difference between killing someone and torturing them.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 18:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 07:00 |
|
|
Yeah so? Ego's a selfish rear end in a top hat who loves yet does not care in the end.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 18:25
|
|