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The medicine thing felt like a few (loving terrible) lines that could have been deleted from the script without changing much. I don't know how you fix the Zygon story without starting from scratch.
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May 21, 2017 12:38
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jivjov posted:I waffle on which message is worse. "Be scared of immigrants/refugees" and "hey kids, don't take your medicine" are both pretty lovely...but the latter targets one of the most vulnerable groups of people And the former doesn't? The former also has the political message of "If you don't like the way you're treated for reasons of the way you were born, I don't give a gently caress just shut up and take it" which is the superset of basically all horrible things ever.
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May 21, 2017 12:46
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And Extremis it was pretty mediocre at best
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May 21, 2017 13:29
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And Extremis it was pretty mediocre at best The best bit was the Pope joke, and that was great 
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May 21, 2017 13:31
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That was bad, and the master is in the vault as everyone with a brain suspected
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May 21, 2017 13:40
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And the former doesn't? Oh I wasn't at all trying to say the former did not!
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May 21, 2017 13:40
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And Extremis it was pretty mediocre at best Extremis is entirely prologue for another episode with no actual punchline of its own, and that's really the mark of bad writing if you have to eat an entire other episode before the story you actually want to tell. Even the Missy reveal is completely so-what because it affects nothing that happened in Extremis.
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May 21, 2017 13:41
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The medicine thing felt like a few (loving terrible) lines that could have been deleted from the script without changing much. I don't know how you fix the Zygon story without starting from scratch. Forest of the Night would still have been a terrible episode without those lines, it just wouldn't be a contender for worst Doctor Who episode.
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May 21, 2017 13:55
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Random Stranger posted:Forest of the Night would still have been a terrible episode without those lines, it just wouldn't be a contender for worst Doctor Who episode. There's also a lot of episodes that seem to advocate suicide as a solution. And this episode used a man shooting himself as a punchline to a joke. I'm not morally against that or anything, but it's awfully dark for a family show that routinely saves the day through the power of love.
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May 21, 2017 14:15
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WE ARE THE EXECUTIONERS OF EVERY SENTIENT SPECIES IN THE UNIVERSE. INCLUDING TIME LORDS THE FIVE OF US. WE THINK OF EVERY EVENTUALITY. EXCEPT THE loving OBVIOUS. Now watch us run away like Tom and Jerry cartoon characters.
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May 21, 2017 14:26
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It was definately a filler episode but I really did like that even as a simulation the Doctor came up with a way of pissing on the as yet unnamed aliens' chips. The Missy stuff is in the same vein - there's always another way. I assume that we're going to be in for some sort of moral quandary a la Batman and the Joker, in terms of "how many lives did you just give up to another villain's scheme because you wanted to keep the moral high ground" and I'm extremely doubtful there's much of interest left to mine in that particular vein.
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May 21, 2017 14:30
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Fil5000 posted:It was definately a filler episode but I really did like that even as a simulation the Doctor came up with a way of pissing on the as yet unnamed aliens' chips. The plot is pretty much a worse version of a couple of Rick and Morty episodes
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May 21, 2017 14:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Extremis is entirely prologue for another episode with no actual punchline of its own, and that's really the mark of bad writing if you have to eat an entire other episode before the story you actually want to tell. Even the Missy reveal is completely so-what because it affects nothing that happened in Extremis. Would you have the same complaint if it had been called "Extremis: Part One"? I'm just curious because a multi-episode story isn't really something new either to Doctor Who or TV in general.
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May 21, 2017 14:34
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I don't understand how you can have a "filler episode" in a show that has an overwhelmingly episodic format. I think it was a neat way to setup for next week's episode, although the execution was somewhat lacking.
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May 21, 2017 14:38
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CaptainCaveman posted:Would you have the same complaint if it had been called "Extremis: Part One"? I'm just curious because a multi-episode story isn't really something new either to Doctor Who or TV in general. The cliffhanger was "aliens are going to invade the Earth"
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May 21, 2017 14:40
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The plot is pretty much a worse version of a couple of Rick and Morty episodes I remember there was a similar Babylon 5 episode (and many other sci-fi shows/books I'm sure) where the characters eventually realize they're holograms being created by some assholes way in the future for propaganda purposes, turning the heroes of Babylon 5 into war criminals to justify some current political act. It has a similar ending to this one, where one of the characters notes that his real version didn't really know much about computers but HE has just realized that he IS a computer program himself, and basically exposes their entire organization/scheme to the galaxy as a gently caress you before they can shut him down.
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May 21, 2017 14:41
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What strikes me about the episode is that, for a very short time there, it was almost like the Doctor Who version of John Carpenter's The Prince of Darkness. And then it went a whole other direction that I don't think was quite as good. Also I honestly misread why they were committing suicide. I thought it was because they realized this was an alien invasion preparing to take on the real world, and they were doing it out of defiance to protect the real world. Apparently they weren't doing that. They were killing themselves to....stop existing I guess
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May 21, 2017 14:54
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Jerusalem posted:I remember there was a similar Babylon 5 episode (and many other sci-fi shows/books I'm sure) where the characters eventually realize they're holograms being created by some assholes way in the future for propaganda purposes, turning the heroes of Babylon 5 into war criminals to justify some current political act. It has a similar ending to this one, where one of the characters notes that his real version didn't really know much about computers but HE has just realized that he IS a computer program himself, and basically exposes their entire organization/scheme to the galaxy as a gently caress you before they can shut him down. That was an amazing episode. However, he was a hologram in a 'TV set'. He may not have needed to rewrite base code or whatever, just detect the camera and turn it on. In Doctor Who, the only real thing was the projecter room, so the Doc would have to reverse engineer the projector and make it fire our a message. Then again, maybe the simulation only makes fake matter, but makes real micro/radio/gamma/alpha/whatever waves the glasses use to communicate.
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May 21, 2017 14:58
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CaptainCaveman posted:Would you have the same complaint if it had been called "Extremis: Part One"? I'm just curious because a multi-episode story isn't really something new either to Doctor Who or TV in general. Multi-part episodes at least do something relevant for the story as a whole. The portals? Nothing. Risky trick for temporary eyesight? Pointless, it's a simulation. Missy? Backstory reveal unrelated to this episode's events. All we get out of it relevant to the followup is "Hey Doctor, Aliens are coming to invade, Love; Doctor." Which amounts to gently caress-all considering he generally stops in-progress surprise Alien Invasions as a hobby. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 15:12 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 15:10
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For whatever reason "what if super mario was tired of dying" is the funniest loving thought to me and the episode was great just because it made me think that a children's always-happy character is actually constantly depressed.
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May 21, 2017 15:17
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He's gonna keep missy in a vault for 1000 years then she'll be free to resume wanton slaughter
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May 21, 2017 15:23
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Vookatos posted:For whatever reason "what if super mario was tired of dying" is the funniest loving thought to me and the episode was great just because it made me think that a children's always-happy character is actually constantly depressed. It's a hell of a leap though, I doubt my NES was capable of creating sentient AI capable of reflecting on it's own death.
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May 21, 2017 15:36
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Extremis was frustrating -- one of those wanky writing exercise episodes where the characters work out that everything is a dream and then die nihilistically. You end up feeling cheated because anything you invested time in basically doesn't matter. (See also: most of The Wedding Of River Song, for something that's similarly frustrating.)Random Stranger posted:Forest of the Night would still have been a terrible episode without those lines, it just wouldn't be a contender for worst Doctor Who episode. This is the same episode where Clara -- who was banging on about duty of care not three episodes ago -- manages to lose a child known for wandering off during the middle of a crisis. Twice. Also she and Danny, despite being English and Maths teachers at a high school, are somehow the ones responsible for chaperoning primary school children to a history museum for an overnight stay -- something which I'm pretty sure is not a thing. I mean, there's that "logic" to parse in the very set up of the episode before you even get into the tree stuff, or the missing sister, or anything else at all.
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May 21, 2017 15:46
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Open Source Idiom posted:
I always try to let media, be it TV, film, books, have the premise and setup as a gimmie...but yeah, that was credulity-straining
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May 21, 2017 15:51
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Wasn't too keen on episodes 2 and 4, but thankfully this episode has set a true low bar that makes those seem much better comparatively. It's with these larger all encompassing plots that Moffat seems to let us down with. Always shallow and too self-obsessed, jumping around awkwardly to the point where it's hard to care about any individual thing.
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May 21, 2017 16:18
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"Nardole, are you secretly a badass?" "Nothing secret about it, babydoll." You know, that exchange was better than any of Moffats "zingers" or one-liners over the years. Putting a good character line in the mouth of a comedian has so much more effectiveness than rapid-fire blathering from Clara.
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May 21, 2017 16:19
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Plavski posted:"Nardole, are you secretly a badass?" I quite liked "I am the only man in the universe with an actual license to kick the Doctor's rear end".
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May 21, 2017 16:33
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Nardole has definitely proven to be a great addition and I look forward to Big Finish inevitably giving him his own series.
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May 21, 2017 16:39
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Nardole just gets better every episode. I hope they don't go overboard and ruin him. I did like all his describing things in a loud voice for the Doctor bits. Anyway, I quite liked that one when it got going. It had a neat idea even if it didn't pull it off very well. Pretty original for Who even if not so much for sci-fi as a whole. And it had a bit of the robots interpret their programming in a way the creators didn't intend. The aliens make a recreation of the Doctor and it proceeds to gently caress up all their plans and really they should have expected that. The Harry Potter joke made me laugh far too much.
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May 21, 2017 17:20
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Open Source Idiom posted:primary school children to a history museum for an overnight stay -- something which I'm pretty sure is not a thing. Nope, it is http://www.nhm.ac.uk/events/dino-snores-for-kids.html
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May 21, 2017 18:55
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I'd say this might be the weirdest thing I've learned about Britain in the last few years But you know Brexit
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May 21, 2017 19:02
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Burkion posted:I'd say this might be the weirdest thing I've learned about Britain in the last few years https://www.mos.org/overnights http://www.zoonewengland.org/discover/families,-youth-and-teens/snorin-roarin-sleepovers http://www.ecotarium.org/school-programs-group-visits/night-journeys-overnight-adventures https://rwpzoo.org/family-education-programs/community-groups/overnights America does over-night stays in zoos and museums too ya know
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May 21, 2017 19:06
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Not where I went! Though that may say more about where I am than anything else
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May 21, 2017 19:08
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The cliffhanger was "aliens are going to invade the Earth" Neddy Seagoon posted:Multi-part episodes at least do something relevant for the story as a whole. The portals? Nothing. Risky trick for temporary eyesight? Pointless, it's a simulation. Missy? Backstory reveal unrelated to this episode's events. All we get out of it relevant to the followup is "Hey Doctor, Aliens are coming to invade, Love; Doctor." Fair enough. I read it as "a setup episode or a part 1 is a terrible idea" and not "this was a terrible part 1 because it was a waste of time." I enjoyed this episode a bunch but I can see what you guys are saying too.
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May 21, 2017 19:22
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It's that aliens are coming to invade and they know exactly how to beat us. I think the point of the NPC suicides was that it mucked up the simulation, cause the real CERN wouldn't just blow itself up out of nowhere. It introduces unrealistic data.
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May 21, 2017 19:31
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Vookatos posted:For whatever reason "what if super mario was tired of dying" is the funniest loving thought to me and the episode was great just because it made me think that a children's always-happy character is actually constantly depressed. I'm picturing All Quiet on the Western Front with goombas.
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May 21, 2017 19:46
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Burkion posted:Apparently they weren't doing that. They were killing themselves to....stop existing I guess I guess so they could stop the aliens from getting any useful information with which to conquer the Earth in the real world? It's never overtly said, but that was the justification I was able to gleam. They never did explain the portals, and why only the Doctor's crew was able to use them, right?
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May 21, 2017 20:12
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I want to know how Nardole got into the Library to get River's diary without wondering who turned the lights out.
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May 21, 2017 20:25
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Vookatos posted:For whatever reason "what if super mario was tired of dying" is the funniest loving thought to me and the episode was great just because it made me think that a children's always-happy character is actually constantly depressed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhx7-R3FdOY
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May 21, 2017 21:17
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Mario wants to stop dying... but first, we have to talk about parallel universes.
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