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ProfessorCirno posted:Yes, but the point is, there are far easier ways to GET +5 damage and +CA. Hell, CA more or less became a done thing with Cunning Stalker (thanks, Essentials?). If you are going to use a lot of slides, or need to GENERATE slides, Lightning is better (IF Dragonmarks are allowed). At Epic, Radiant is going to do far more damage due to Stupid Shenanigans. And if you use heavy blades and can ensure fire damage without requiring a fire weapon, Firewind Blade could end up being even more powerful. Eh it's baseline if you are dead-set on breaking the game and taking only the cheesiest options. It's like saying "hmm well it's not frostcheese twin strike half-elf dilettante so who cares" to anyone's build idea. Like, we had a rebreather at my table at epic. It was really impressive the first session. But it basically broke the game's damage assumptions so the DM had three choices (1) Every fight is too easy (2) Every fight is too hard (3) Telling the player to not loving do that The ease of doing this as the game progresses is basically why Epic 4E is stupid.
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May 17, 2017 23:10
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dont even fink about it posted:Like, we had a rebreather at my table at epic. I find it hilarious how every monster at-will minor-action attack in the history of Essentials has the "1/rd" limitation slapped on it, but this never made it onto dragonbreath, even in errata. 
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May 18, 2017 02:06
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IIRC it actually took a while for people to figure out the nusemnee's atonement combo, and the whole thing didn't really work altogether until Sensate became a thing because you would kill yourself pretty quickly if you weren't careful. Basically, the rebreather only really came into existence until WotC had completely stopped putting in any real effort with 4th.
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May 18, 2017 02:15
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For as crazy as 4th ed Epic can sound, it's still in the end usually just encounter scale stuff instead of people wistfully remembering the time they -*Insert liberal usage of spell table here* and upended the entire campaign. Though I can undertand how it would be even more frustrating in a way, because it's harder to field a bunch of individual combat rules rather than broad strokes asking somebody to not make their magical clone cast wish for them or whateever. Even if it still always reminds of when someone unironically saying Warlord healing is OP and makes no realistic sense (I thought it was an exagreated meme, not a thing people actually said  ), before immediately linking me their half gold dragon elf monk sheet with homebrew cannibal cooking.On a question note for the subject of what is or isn't bullshit picks, what are some of the more readily accessible but not "too stupid" ways to allow advantage on ranged weapon attacks all on your lonesome? Distant advantage is a feat I keep thinking of then ignoring because that needs the party composition to exist for it to ever happen, for starters. Then I think about the above "Frostcheese" type stuff and realize I don't really feel like going that route, and it's not like I'd get the option most of the time in the short lived practically one shots I poke around playing a rogue in. Less a desire for SICKNASTY DAMAGE ALL DAY and more that it feels pretty anemic when you have a lower level rogue resorting to a sling or hand crossbow or not attack at all for multiple turns. Plenty of one and done convenient ways for easy CA or Sneak for melee though these days. Without any "Okay, you need this specific race/multiclass/magic weapon" either. Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:45 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 02:43
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Cunning stalker and distant advantage are probably your best go-tos for getting combat advantage for ranged combat.
berenzen fucked around with this message at 03:05 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 02:59
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berenzen posted:Cunning stalker and distant advantage are probably your best go-tos for getting combat advantage for ranged combat. Oh poo poo, Cunning stalker works for ranged attacks? I've been interpreting the "Nothing next to them other than you" in the sense of needing to be next to them myself to trigger. Like a power creep version of that feat that needed a Rapier for CA. If it does work for ranged/I can get away with ranged where I play it, that really would do the job since I take cunning stalker anyways.
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May 18, 2017 03:08
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berenzen posted:IIRC it actually took a while for people to figure out the nusemnee's atonement combo, and the whole thing didn't really work altogether until Sensate became a thing because you would kill yourself pretty quickly if you weren't careful. Most of the stupidest cheese builds in 4E work off the thing that helped make 3E a loving mess, feats and occasionally items, which represent hundreds of moving parts that are impossible to balance by their sheer overpopulation, controlled only by the secondary problem that 95% of them are never worth taking. Or, they work off of people willfully misinterpreting rules, but that's a whole other topic.
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May 18, 2017 03:10
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Section Z posted:Oh poo poo, Cunning stalker works for ranged attacks? I've been interpreting the "Nothing next to them other than you" in the sense of needing to be next to them myself to trigger. Like a power creep version of that feat that needed a Rapier for CA. Yeah, the only reason why they needed "no other creatures other than you" is specifically so it can also work for melee attacks.
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May 18, 2017 03:14
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I mean, if you can make it so you don't provoke OAs by making ranged attacks in melee (mighty crusader/staff expertise, shadowdance armor, etc) you could use it that way. Not exactly ideal though. If you're a warlock with shadow walk, your best bet for CA is hidden sniper. So long as you keep moving 3 squares and getting partial concealment, you've got CA on anything.
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May 18, 2017 04:36
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Cunning stalker works, full stop, if nobody is beside the target.
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May 18, 2017 04:38
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Edit: apparently I was wrong. Official response (according to WOTC archived post):quote:Thank you for getting in touch with us! The wording on Cunning Stalker is "Benefit: You gain combat advantage against enemies that have no creatures adjacent to them other than you." The only requirement is that no enemies be adjacent to the creature for you to gain combat advantage, nothing in the feat says anything about the character needing to be adjacent and so does not be and can gain combat advantage with ranged attacks. Of course your DM is free to change this if it makes the game more fun for the group! Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 05:06 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 05:01
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Dick Burglar posted:I'm pretty sure it's not how it's meant to be interpreted, and you are supposed to be adjacent for it to work. It can be interpreted either way, so I guess "ask your DM"? I know I'd definitely be allowed to use it myself that way in the main friends I've played with off and on for ages (In my case, primarily to cut down on "Well It would take me two turns to get within melee range, So I guess I'll just throw an at-will shuriken with my Rogue for bog standard no sneak damage  )Though I don't think it would get as much of a pass with the most recent seems mostly nice guy who's started GMing something on weekends. Because we had to point out to him that you don't provoke AoO for walking up to normal enemies in order to melee attack them and owes his regular players an apology for years of pain. (And also that torch was bright light 5 tiles, not literal maximum 5 tile sight radius so I'm playing hunt the wumpus on Roll20). To their credit, they accepted the explanations and adjusted without much argument. But yeah.
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May 18, 2017 05:07
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dont even fink about it posted:Eh it's baseline if you are dead-set on breaking the game and taking only the cheesiest options. I mean, rebreathers are several leagues past cheese. Rebreather wsa literally a thing that the 4e charops forums told people to NOT make. It straight up shatters the game entirely. When I say frostcheese isn't cheese anymore, it's not about breaking the game. Just that there's way more things you can do then there was when frostcheese first became a thing. Like, when all is said and done, you are using a weapon (which would probably be elemental anyways), gloves (for most characters, gloves aren't super crucial, so again, not a major loss), a feat that essentially gives you +5 damage to an enemy after you've hit them once (not bad by far, but there's often better feat choices), and a feat that causes enemies you hit to grant you CA (CA is far, far easier to get then when the game first came out, and this feat has aged poorly). The weapon and gloves are still good, but there's far better then those two feats. It's not that there's even cheesier stuff now - I mean sure, there is - it's more that the general power level of the game rose over time, as it tends to do in D&D, and so the old combos aren't so earthshattering anymore. Or to put it another way, frost optimization still exists, it's just that the rest of the game broadly caught up to it.
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May 18, 2017 05:41
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quote:Auramorphic Armor I think they meant to put Hit instead of Effect since everything else about it - like the damage roll - would imply it?
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May 18, 2017 13:47
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I think you must be right. Would be an extraordinarily good power otherwise. Yep I'll just do 1d10+INT automatically in a 5x5 area for the rest of the fight, no biggie. e: depends on the level I guess but still that's got to be an error in the last line.
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May 18, 2017 14:00
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My Lovely Horse posted:I think you must be right. Would be an extraordinarily good power otherwise. Yep I'll just do 1d10+INT automatically in a 5x5 area for the rest of the fight, no biggie. So that either means you should model it after the rest to keep it in-line, or that it was a simple copy/paste error. So actually I guess it's no help at all now that I think about it. It's Level 29, btw.
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May 18, 2017 14:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:That's pretty much the long and short of it. It works better for the BLackguard because the Encounter power triggers the vuln.
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May 18, 2017 21:38
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This weekend we talked about continuing the game after we're done with Gardmore Abbey, me switching DM duties with a player. It's a long way in the future, but what's the best leader for offense, i.e. handing out attack bonuses, damage bonuses, extra actions etc? I have a terrible suspicion it's gonna be the Warlord, and that's what the guy is playing right now and I wouldn't want to retread the same ground.
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May 21, 2017 13:56
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My Lovely Horse posted:This weekend we talked about continuing the game after we're done with Gardmore Abbey, me switching DM duties with a player. It's a long way in the future, but what's the best leader for offense, i.e. handing out attack bonuses, damage bonuses, extra actions etc? It's the warlord yeah - but there is probably some bard builds that could work
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May 21, 2017 14:04
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Yeah, that's what I thought. We had various bards in our parties for years. Great class but maybe we're a little barded out at this point. Eh, it's still months away anyway, maybe I'll be the third striker and we kill enemies so fast they won't have any time to make us need healing
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May 21, 2017 14:09
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Shamans are cool.
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May 21, 2017 18:14
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Our shaman player thinks so as well.  We already jokingly considered having her respec as a nature cleric and I'll play her bear spirit as a defender.That reminds me, some questions came up: - If an enemy has a power that involves moving, and it says "this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks", does this extend to other opportunity actions that are also triggered by movement the same way an OA would be? Example: a shaman's Spirit Shield. - If you're granted the ability to take a move action as a free action, can you substitute a minor? Example: warlord's Bravura Presence. My takes are "no" and "probably yes but I don't feel you're supposed to".
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May 21, 2017 19:27
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My Lovely Horse posted:This weekend we talked about continuing the game after we're done with Gardmore Abbey, me switching DM duties with a player. It's a long way in the future, but what's the best leader for offense, i.e. handing out attack bonuses, damage bonuses, extra actions etc? Yeah the warlords leader niche is that they're the best at granting attack bonuses and extra actions, so none of the other leaders are going to beat them on that. However, bards do hand out a lot of bonuses of various types, and ardents sort of reverse it by making enemies easier and giving you bonuses for hitting certain enemies. Shamans depends on build, but can grant decent offensive bonuses. What sort of warlord is he playing? Warlord builds are variable enough that, depending on his choice, you might be able to put together something that plays markedly different. My Lovely Horse posted:Our shaman player thinks so as well. For the second, I would say it's totally appropriate to trade down to a minor with a granted move action. The whole point of it being a move action is to give you access to all the options that entails, otherwise it would just grant movement (e.g. "you may move up to your speed as a free action").
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May 21, 2017 20:26
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Consider Ardent. It's underrated and a lot of fun to play in my experience. It's not necessarily the *best* at any particular aspect of Leader-ing, but it's extremely flexible and by far the best of the psionic classes at actually making the most of the power point gimmick.
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May 21, 2017 20:30
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Gonna come back to a question I asked earlier: for fire damage optimization, what all gear and feats are available? Firewind blade, flame bracers (probably worse than iron armbands if you're melee unless you're going pure alpha strike), and burning gauntlets are all I found. Feat-wise I found fiery blood (which is straight-up superior to astral fire). Are there any other non-tiefling fire feats? Edit: also, any radiant gear/feats I should be aware of? Most radiant ones require divine powers which I can't really use outside of morninglord powers. Specifically I'm looking for stuff I can incorporate into a fire/radiant-breath dragonborn elemental hexblade using the rod of the dragonborn to make all of its attacks fire/radiant. I know it's not optimal because I can't use a firewind blade, but unraveling strike creates vulnerable 3 (element) on every hit so it's not entirely terrible. Couple that with morninglord and you've got some hefty vulnerability at-will. Edit2: I'm looking at warlock utility powers and the level 6 warlock utility Chaos Armor is weird to me. It has a trigger that says "whenever an enemy hits you with an attack during your turn, one enemy...takes damage." Aside from intentionally triggering OAs (or if your DM is using readied actions for enemies) and the rare defender-style enemy with mark punishment, is there any way to even trigger that? Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 22:59 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 22:33
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Shocking Flame.
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May 21, 2017 23:04
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My Lovely Horse posted:Yeah, that's what I thought. We had various bards in our parties for years. Great class but maybe we're a little barded out at this point. You can do something like a Barbarian|Cleric, Avenger|Cleric, or Ranger|Cleric hybrid. Take a cleric at-will, Mighty Hew, and Weapon of Astral Flame and then just play it like a straight striker. Use Battle Cleric's Lore for armor and put a natural 18 on your main stat, throw heals when needed.
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May 21, 2017 23:58
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My Lovely Horse posted:This weekend we talked about continuing the game after we're done with Gardmore Abbey, me switching DM duties with a player. It's a long way in the future, but what's the best leader for offense, i.e. handing out attack bonuses, damage bonuses, extra actions etc? Warlord and Valor Bard are the two prime movers in this area. If you want to play a Warlord, you can almost certainly build one that plays *completely* differently from the current one. If you wanna go oldschool CharOp play Killswitch, Killswitch is king of buffing.
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May 22, 2017 00:36
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Play a Str Striker/Cleric Hybrid. All the best bits of the Striker class, AND a once-an-encounter heal AND heavy armor AND +2 shield bonus just because! JUST BECAUSE.
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May 22, 2017 02:13
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thespaceinvader posted:Warlord and Valor Bard are the two prime movers in this area. I always liked Flameswitch better. More focused (for better or worse - definitely worse if you don't have a team with strong MBAs), and just way fluffier in my experience.
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May 22, 2017 03:32
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Comrade Gorbash posted:The whole point of it being a move action is to give you access to all the options that entails, otherwise it would just grant movement (e.g. "you may move up to your speed as a free action"). He's playing a Bravura Warlord (as you may have guessed) and tries to focus on granting additional actions, but I'd actually say by now he's slightly reoriented himself towards movement, using Join The Crowd and Reorient The Axis to great effect. His most useful leader feature in my mind is actually Enlarged & Inspiring Dragon Breath, I guess if I do end up playing a Warlord I can already make a completely different one by not playing a Dragonborn.
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May 22, 2017 08:23
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My Lovely Horse posted:Gotta slightly disagree there as when you're granted a move action instead of just movement, you can shift, crawl, run, use a power that's a move action... but yeah I couldn't really find anything that would prevent downgrading either
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May 22, 2017 10:36
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So it is. Clearly I made a mistake but I'll be damned if I can figure out what I was thinking to make it.
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May 22, 2017 10:40
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My Lovely Horse posted:Gotta slightly disagree there as when you're granted a move action instead of just movement, you can shift, crawl, run, use a power that's a move action... but yeah I couldn't really find anything that would prevent downgrading either. Play a Taclord then, they play differently enough from Bravura Warlords but still fill your needs.
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May 22, 2017 13:51
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Looking into that! Runepriest actually looks like fun. Seems really complicated at first, but it's just switching between offense and defense mode if I'm not mistaken. Or maybe a Bard refluffed as some kind of non-standard issue warlock, cause the things a Bard can actually do are extremely compelling. Plus 4/5 players have PHB2 characters and I might as well fall in line.
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May 23, 2017 10:08
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Mordiceius posted:Shamans are cool. Do this.
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May 23, 2017 15:41
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Mordiceius posted:Shamans are cool. We were supposed to have a shaman in our group but real-life stuff took over. On one hand, sucks cuz I liked the guy's character. On the other hand, now I don't have to plan for two Leaders just saying "heal up lol" like 4 times an encounter between them.
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May 24, 2017 03:01
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A couple minor rules questions. 1: A power like Dual Strike trips marks even if one of the targets is the marker, right? 2: Does a pursuit avenger get their censure bonus damage on opportunity attacks? I lean towards no because the attack technically comes before the movement...
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May 30, 2017 18:41
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The Crotch posted:A couple minor rules questions. 1: I wouldn't think so, since it's not an attack with a secondary attack, it's an attack that has up to two targets. 2: I would rule that it does (happy to be corrected) since it triggers off the same thing that opportunity attacks trigger from.
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May 30, 2017 22:18
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The Crotch posted:A couple minor rules questions. We always played that it didn't, which i think is incorrect - but as long as it's *consistent* (i.e. monster marks interact the same way with player powers) it won't make a lot of difference. It won't make a *lot* of difference anyway really.
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May 30, 2017 22:30
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