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ZiegeDame posted:To me, the fact that his name is so unremarkable means the fact that it was withheld until now was supposed to be a hint to think about what Kanon's real name could be. I'm wondering what the alternate readings of possible names with Shannon/Kanon's first characters could be. I didn't look into it despite noticing the pattern, because there's so many possibilities that can be generated as a result. CottonWolf posted:That line's always read as weird. But I'm not sure where it gets you. Unless, of course, if the original Battler is still alive. We vaguely theorised that it could be Kanon in the last thread, but there are only so many people that Kanon can simultaneously be. I was sure that the fact that he was hiding his name was going to lead to a twist about his identity, but it actually seems like a un-twisty name. i don't think original-Battler is still alive, and I'd also say that current-Battler knows about what the 'promise' was, but simply forgot. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to solve the game. Beato's line was simply her using Battler's secret as an excuse to freeze the game.
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May 21, 2017 20:10
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ZiegeDame posted:To me, the fact that his name is so unremarkable means the fact that it was withheld until now was supposed to be a hint to think about what Kanon's real name could be. And I took the same evidence exactly the other way: the author was just demonstrating Kanon's personality, not dropping a clue. Or maybe the author hadn't decided at that point, and ended up not making it special. Given how long these things took to come out, it's hard to believe no plans changed along the way. So if we're more or less happy with a solution to Ep 1, what about Ep 2? That one seems harder.
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May 21, 2017 21:30
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BurningStone posted:And I took the same evidence exactly the other way: the author was just demonstrating Kanon's personality, not dropping a clue. Or maybe the author hadn't decided at that point, and ended up not making it special. Given how long these things took to come out, it's hard to believe no plans changed along the way. Well let's take them one at a time. Regarding the chapel: Regardless of whether they were alive or dead, the six definitely entered through the door! The six people definitely entered through this front door!! Only one key to the chapel exists! It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key!! When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit!! There were no doors with auto-locks other than Kinzo's study! This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag... and from that obtained the genuine key to the chapel. The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria. The envelope I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing! From the time Maria received her key to the instant Rosa unsealed the envelope the next day, the key passed through no one's hands!! The six were already dead by the time they were discovered! All of their deaths were homicides! All six were genuine victims and did not take part in a mutual murder! There was no simultaneous murder!! There was no one hiding in the chapel. Therefore, the shut-in murder you suggest does not work! When the six were murdered in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel! We know that the six entered and were killed there. The problem is how they did that, and how the culprit got out afterwards. Option 1: There was a second key to the chapel which was used to enter and exit, and destroyed afterwards. Option 2: Rosa and the servants were accomplices, and the chapel was never locked. Option 3: The chapel door was barred with something aside from the lock, and the servants removed it after Rosa had left. The second one, to me, seems the most likely. We have a general idea that Rosa entered the chapel with the rest of the siblings the previous night, making her viable as an accomplice. With that, it's possible for pretty much anyone to be the killer. Regarding Kanon/Jessica, I'm not even going to bother. If we suspect the servants, then their master keys are viable, and the Kanon personality can be 'killed'. Regarding Kumasawa/Nanjo, again it's possible so long as a servant is an accomplice. Even easier if Kanon is the culprit, since even though no one can use 'Kanon' as their name, there's nothing stopping Kanon from doing so. Alternately, the servants could be accomplices to lie about it, with Gohda being threatened to do so. Regarding Natsuhi's room: Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual! The door and windows were locked from the inside. There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place! Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off. Only the five master keys were left, and Rosa was holding all of them! All of the master keys were under Rosa's control! After the master keys came into Rosa's control, never did any of them leave her hands! Except for the time when she lent one to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room. Battler opens it this time, so no "wasn't ever locked" tricks here. This one I'd have to assume the killer entered while the room was unlocked, and stayed inside the room, locking it behind them. Rosa shooed Battler out before he had a chance to possibly search and find the hiding killer. The envelope in the parlour can be easily solved by assuming Rosa's placement, again.
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May 21, 2017 22:33
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For the chapel, I'd rather mess with the time frame, attacking this: From the time Maria received her key to the instant Rosa unsealed the envelope the next day, the key passed through no one's hands!!. Nothing says the first time that Rosa opened the envelope was the time we saw her do it. She could have committed the murders, gotten the key, locked the chapel, then put the key back. In the morning she's told of the murders and again gets the key. I prefer that to a second chapel key, because the murderer would have no reason to destroy an duplicate key, except to set up a puzzling red statement. Option 2 works, but I'd like to keep the murder conspiracies as small as possible, and I'm not sure why the servants would work with Rosa. For Jessica and Kanon, as you say, there are a number of keys floating around. Not really a locked room. For Kumasawa and Nanjo, I think there are larger problems. While we don't have to accept what we see in the servants' room, we do need to accept Battler's view. And he does see servants run in and lie about seeing supernatural stuff. Why? Maybe I'm being forced back on all the servants (aside from the already dead ones) being in on the plot. It also solves the (less important) problem of how the chapel scene was set up - the servants helped. But it raises the question of why they'd work for Rosa, who they don't really know or like. As Rosa is our chief suspect, her having the keys to Natsuhi's room solves that room. Do we accept the death of everybody by the end of the story? Do we need to explain who kills Rosa? A servant, getting revenge? Battler, with his viewpoint hidden from us? Maria, in a shootout with Mommy? After that, how does the last person die? I'd be tempted by "a wounded Kanon, who dies later, after a murderous rage to avenge Jessica," but we have red that he was killed in Jessica's room already. If you twist "killed" to "fatally wounded" he could do it, making me wonder if the original Japanese was more ambiguous. There's one additional puzzle. At the beginning Kyrie sees somebody who looks like Beatrice, as do the servants. I don't trust the servants' viewpoint at all, but Kyrie isn't one sucked into the legend of the Golden Witch. Is her viewpoint untrustworthy? Was somebody dressed up as Beatrice? Why? If we're making Rosa the main killer, then possibly Rosa? It would be hard to arrange an 18th person, so it's got to be somebody in disguise, and that's something I wouldn't want to try to pull on Kyrie - she seems to easily be the smartest person on the island. I suppose the Beatrice we see could be Rosa, trying to fool the servants, only accidentally seen by Kyrie. She wants the Beatrice disguise to convince them to kill for her. Hard to believe anybody could pull off that impersonation, but it pretty much has to be somebody in disguise.
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May 21, 2017 23:33
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I'm pretty sure eliminating "key is removed from envelope between receipt by Maria and when we saw Rosa open the envelope" as the possibility was the whole reason that red was dropped. That was Battler's original theory, after all. My big reason for why Rosa would be working with the servants hinges around the fact that she was seen (by the witcheye which could be fake, but still) inside the chapel looking at the gold. She'd know how they got inside, so her "how did they get inside" sort of rings false to me. My assumption is that Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji are in on at least one plot. They and Kanon coerce Gohda during the Kumasawa/Nanjo scene, which is why he becomes suddenly twitchy right afterwards. It's indeed theoretically possible for Rosa, given Battler was also dozing off in the parlour, meaning Rosa could have possibly slipped in and out again without him noticing. Maria might have kicked up a fuss if that had happened, but Beatrice's response to Shannon (regarding love, etc) would be incredibly fitting for Rosa, the person whose husband ran off pretty much as soon as Maria was born. I think whoever's dressed up as Beatrice in one episode is likely the same person dressed up in all. So solving 2's appearance would also solve 1 and 4's.
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May 22, 2017 01:06
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Cyouni posted:I'm pretty sure eliminating "key is removed from envelope between receipt by Maria and when we saw Rosa open the envelope" as the possibility was the whole reason that red was dropped. That was Battler's original theory, after all. But the reason the red was dropped isn't relevant - often, the red is dropped to mislead, so we need to work with what it literally says and not with the characters' interpretations of it. If Rosa herself opened the envelope, and she did it after midnight ("the next day"), then the red was fulfilled. Though honestly it's much easier to assert that the door wasn't locked in the first place.
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May 22, 2017 01:23
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Qrr posted:But the reason the red was dropped isn't relevant - often, the red is dropped to mislead, so we need to work with what it literally says and not with the characters' interpretations of it. Oh, certainly, although I think it might be a little overly much to edge out of it that way when there's an easier solution. On a different note, I can counter the "Rosa locked Natsuhi's room" thought with this: Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual! The door and windows were locked from the inside. That alone blocks off quite a few possibilities.
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May 22, 2017 02:15
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I missed Natsuhi's door being locked from the inside. Then somebody hiding does seem the best solution. But whom?
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May 22, 2017 04:16
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More like how, since there's literally no trick or hidden places.
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May 22, 2017 04:37
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Under the bed would be ok, right? The room wasn't searched (I think).
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May 22, 2017 05:18
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Nah, I don't think it was either, Rosa shooed Battler out before anyone had a chance. Or in the closet. Or perhaps...
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May 22, 2017 06:16
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Knox's 8th still applies. If someone were hiding in the room, there'd be some evidence. Since Battler looked around the room a bit and didn't see anything, well... up to you if you're satisfied with your answer, really. I'm still actually really proud of my solution to that one. Gohda accidentally locked the door from the inside after the killer left, because he had a punctured lung and was trying to get help. All he managed to do is fumble with the knob a bit before collapsing. Which explains why he was found face-down directly in front of the door, despite being stabbed from the front.
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May 22, 2017 07:03
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th still applies. If someone were hiding in the room, there'd be some evidence. Since Battler looked around the room a bit and didn't see anything, well... up to you if you're satisfied with your answer, really. Actually, that makes it less likely that your scenario happened. In your scenario, for that to be the case, he would be leaning against the door in some way. In order for him to be face-down directly in front of the door, he had to have fallen when he was more than arms-reach distance away. It would also be somewhat questionable if he were to stagger backwards enough to get distance, and then subsequently collapse forwards. I don't think we have much physical evidence to even work with on that. We know where the key was. We know the stake positions and the positions of the bodies. Battler personally examined Shannon's body. That's all we have, so what we have to do is work off behavioural evidence. A theoretical hiding place specified by the text would be in the dresser, as drawers were noted to have been scattered everywhere along with their contents. It was also after Battler approached the dresser and Shannon's body that Rosa intervened, raising the odds somewhat.
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May 22, 2017 08:36
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th still applies. If someone were hiding in the room, there'd be some evidence. Since Battler looked around the room a bit and didn't see anything, well... up to you if you're satisfied with your answer, really. I don't really understand what the limits are on Knox's 8th. For example, when we see someone "unlock" a door in the narrative, and we later theorize that they were pretending to unlock it and it was never really locked, is that a violation of the 8th since we don't have evidence that they were lying? How far can we go outside of the story as we saw it? Especially when most of the evidence we were presented with is unreliable, due to unreliable narrator/Knox's 9th. And it doesn't really matter that Battler looked around. This version of Knox's 8th doesn't mean anything special for the detective. For that matter, do we even know if the nonalogue applies to the first 4 episodes? (It's not a decalogue because 5 is absent)
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May 22, 2017 09:13
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 BGM: Novelette George slammed his last card down, ending the game with his victory once again. Everyone gasped in unison. The cousins' room was filled with laughter as they enjoyed their card game...  "Whoooooooa, so you really did have it, George-aniki! drat you... drat you six of spaaaaadeeessss!" "Your eight of diamonds was pretty nasty too. Aah, I was so close, ahahahahaha!" "Uu-uu-uu-!! You're incredible, George onii-chan! You won again!!" "Yep, looks like we've won again. Ahahahahaha."Maria couldn't really hold her own in an all-out battle. So, she had teamed up with George, which was why she was celebrating his victory.  Kanon winced and let his cards drop to the table. The game of sevens that Kanon and the cousins had been playing had been a fierce battle. Normally, they would take things easy since Maria was there, so this sort of game was rare. Kanon had started taking the game seriously, unwilling to lose, so George and Battler had responded and the battle had grown fierce. Unlike Battler, who was carefree enough to enjoy it whether he won or lost, Kanon's mood changed drastically with every victory and defeat. It was less of a dislike for losing and more that he just wasn't used to playing. He wasn't used to trading a few wins and losses with his opponents, so he took even losses within a game seriously. Since he had resolved to win and had unfortunately challenged the veteran players George and Battler, the result was plain to see. As Kanon slumped his shoulders, Jessica slapped him on the back.  "Hey, you almost had it...! Ahaha, I love fighting, all-out like this!" "...Whether we went all-out or not, if we just lose in the end, it's all pointless..." "Are you kidding me? If you really gave it your all, who cares if you lose? If you lost after hardly trying, then you'd be grumbling and complaining about how you'd have won if you'd taken it seriously, right?" "That's right. People who really give it their all never complain. Those guys are always cheery no matter what the result." "That's right. And those people are scarier than anyone else. They always learn something from their experience and grow." "...Very true. I was a coward, so I could never learn anything. I see that I am still immature."I am furniture, so it is useless to dream. Because he had rigidly believed that, he had distanced himself from everything and shut himself away. However, during that time, Shannon had undergone many life adventures. And now, her hand is resting on the door separating furniture and humans... The old Kanon would only have seen this card game as a way to pass the time. However, the new Kanon was now capable of gaining something new from this experience. That could probably be called... growth. When time passes, furniture does nothing but rot. Being able to grow... is a privilege given only to humans.  BGM: White Shadow  "...Actually, I had a lot of fun. Not only that... I now understand why doing things like that is fun. Thank you very much for forcing me to come." "Let's challenge ourselves more and more. And let's go and find more and more things you didn't know about." "...O, oh, by the way, about what we were talking about... ever wanted to try playing guitar? W, well, it's not like I'll force you to or anything, but..." "...It must be very difficult." "Y, yeah, I guess. But I'll do a good job teaching you, and I'll even practice with you. Well, I guess I'm not that much of an expert myself, hahaha..."At first, Kanon was scared that he might make a complete fool of himself if he touched a musical instrument for the first time in his life. It was because he knew that screwing up like that would make him feel bad. However, Kanon was starting to learn.  "It's only natural that I'll be bad when I first start. If I just try to run away from that, I'll never learn a thing for all eternity. I'll never achieve anything." "Yep. Isn't that why people love it when they feel themselves improving? Even I sucked at making my left and right hands move at the same time when I first started...! But I slowly got the knack of it, and it started to feel more and more natural...!" "...I'd like to reach that level too. If one path to that goal is playing music with you, Milady, I would love to do that with you." "R, really...?!" "Yes. I'm sure I'll be horrible when I start, and I might even make you lose hope in me at times. But if I've given it my all, even messing up is no big deal. That's what I learned from you all just now." "...Hahahahahahaha, you're embarrassing me..." "Now, I like you even more, Milady. Because I averted my eyes for so long, even though you shone like the sun, I never noticed you when you were right there next to me..." "Eheheheh. Then I'd better work even harder to make you like me even more... Ehehihi, hahyahyahya..."Kanon's serious and competitive words were more than enough to make Jessica shy. However, Kanon's expression unexpectedly clouded... "...Milady, the reason I like you is so clear. Because of that, I can't bear not knowing." "N, not knowing what...?" BGM: Wingless  "Th, that's not true, okay?! There are all kinds of good things about you, Kanon-kun..." "...Let me swallow my pride and ask. What about me made you like me, Milady?"Kanon hung his head. He had never learned anything, so he had never been able to take the lead with her. And yet, it made him sad and frustrated that he had always been the one-sided recipient of her affection... and could do nothing but respond to it. Jessica was lost for words. After all, compared to the reason that Kanon had started to like Jessica, Jessica's reason was a lot more vague. She had heard Shannon talking about her love with George, and at school, she and her friends had always talked about relationships with boys. There would have been nothing strange about a girl fascinated by the idea of romance developing an interest in a nearby member of the opposite sex. However, if you put that into words, it would be misinterpreted to mean that any nearby boy would have done just as well... However, at this moment, her heart was filled with nothing besides her own feelings. She really did like Kanon, and she truly wanted to fall in love. As a result, they might end up together, or they might not. However, if she reached that result without holding back, she could accept it no matter which it was. That's why she was able to become serious about her emotions. However, she couldn't find the right words to tell Kanon this. When Kanon saw Jessica bite her lower lip in frustration, he finally realized... "...I'm such a fool." "Huh?"  "Th, that's not true...! A, after all, it's the first question any girl would like to ask after being given a love confession...! Th, the question 'What part of me do you like?'..." "It was immature of me to ask you that. How could anyone like someone so immature?" "W, wait, that's not..."Jessica panicked, trying desperately to explain how she felt. However, Kanon was calm. And then, he spoke. "In that case, I want you to like me... the way I already like you. I've decided to change myself so that can happen. I can hardly imagine that you would like me the way I am. But someday... no matter what..." "...Yeah. I'm absolutely sure you'll become a wonderful person, Kanon-kun. A guy so cool that I can't keep my eyes off you. Until then, I'll stick by you all the way. We have plenty of time...!" BGM: None "...What about time?" "When I talk about furniture... it usually saddens you. However, this is something I must talk to you about. And it is also something I must fight for with all my soul." "What are you talking about...? I don't want to hear any more of that 'I'm furniture so I can't fall in love' talk. You're a human, not furniture...!" "Yes. I would like to become human. However, I am still furniture." "In that case, just do it...!" "The witch taught me once. The single element of this world. She said it was love. It's something that humans born into this world can take for granted. However, it is not something that those not from this world, who were born as furniture, can take for granted. In order to gain it for themselves, they must have magic or a miracle."In the same way that Nee-san and George-sama... would never have ended up as they have without borrowing the power of that golden butterfly brooch.  BGM: Haruka  "...What don't you understand? Let me hear it." "Since this game began, a large portion of the time has been spent on Shannon and Kanon's determination to fall in love. I have no problem with interpreting that as a story of growth and teenage determination for a girl and boy who call themselves furniture. However, one of the assumptions they make feels really out of place to me." "...Why is magic necessary? Is that it...?" "Both Shannon and Kanon... call themselves furniture. These furniture have always claimed that there cannot be love between furniture and humans. At that point, the magic of the golden butterfly brooch comes into play, and as the miraculous result of that magic, love is established between Shannon and George onii-chan. That's what they claim." "Could it not be merely that forbidden love between people, of different classes would be impossible to manage without a miracle of magic...?" "Good point. I can accept that Shannon and Kanon, who are servants in forbidden love with members of the family and suffering for it, might debase themselves as furniture." "...Then what is it that you cannot accept...?" "'Without the power of magic once more, marriage will be impossible'. That seems to be common knowledge between Shannon and Kanon. I just can't understand that part."After meeting in secret for quite some time, George and Shannon had finally gotten engaged. Both were fully prepared for it emotionally, and though there would be some trouble with the relatives, it would probably be impossible for anyone to prevent their marriage by this point.  "Exactly. Now that George onii-chan has sworn to protect his lover for the rest of their lives, he has no need to fear opposition and disinheritance from his parents. On the contrary, you might even consider that a perfect test for his love for her. In other words, they will be married no matter what. No one can stop them. And they have both consented to the engagement." "No one can stop them or impede them. Trying to break apart lovers is a foolhardy venture..." "Yeah. And that's what's strange. There's no need for magic."If George and Shannon had wanted Eva's approval for their engagement... Then magic might really have been necessary. After all, Eva had forbidden his relationship with her. No matter how much George spoke on Shannon's behalf, the chances of Eva being convinced were very near zero. If that were the case, it would be understandable if they wanted a magical miracle to make Eva acknowledge that engagement. "However, George onii-chan has already sworn to it. He doesn't care whether his parents approve of the engagement or not. Yeah. There's nothing standing in the way of their engagement." "And Shannon should know that well herself. So why is it that now, on this night where the proposal went so smoothly, she's still praying on a miracle of magic?" "...The furniture claim that she will not even have the right to marry without that miracle..." "And there you go. It means that Shannon has accepted George's proposal, but she knows that there's still some kind of barrier that can't be overcome without a magical miracle. And that barrier isn't something that they can overcome by their own efforts. That's why they need this miracle called magic." "Why do they need magic? If two people love each other, what other miracle could they possibly need to be together?!" "...Hmm, I see..."Featherine listened to Ange's interpretation, smiling in a satisfied way. Apparently, she had already reached that conclusion and enjoyed watching Ange finally manage to do the same.  "There's nothing standing in their way. They're already in a loving relationship even without the golden butterfly brooch. It'd be no surprise if the relationship they've started lasts for years and eventually results in marriage. There's nothing standing in their way either." "...As long as they don't seek approval from Krauss and Natsuhi, it seems that they will not need a magical miracle either..." "Exactly. Kanon watched how Shannon lived, and changed his own way of life. Then, he let his true feelings be known and started a relationship with Jessica onee-chan. There's no need for magic anymore." "...If it were a one-sided love, then he might need a love charm or something. But their feelings are already mutual. They've already communicated their intentions to one another. So why do they still need a miracle?"Both furniture were in relationships of mutual love. There shouldn't have been any need for a miracle any longer. So why... do they still desire some miracle? And on top of that, the single brooch was portrayed as bestowing only a single miracle. It felt almost as though Shannon was hesitating because, if she used up that miracle for herself, Kanon's chances at love would be automatically sealed away for eternity...  "...So, you ask why love is not permitted without the miracle known as magic." "And also, there's this golden butterfly brooch that's supposed to give the lamenting furniture the love they so strongly desire. Just what on Earth is that?" BGM: Apathy  "...So, it can only have an effect for those who believe in magic and witches." "Correct. So, Shannon, who was capable of interacting with me, was able to make use of its benefits. However, if Shannon had dropped it in a sandy beach and someone who knew nothing picked it up..." "...If that person was shrouded in the anti-magic toxin, they wouldn't be able to make use of the brooch's magic power..." "Precisely. A witch's magical items often lose their power if they are not handed over directly. However, just as how a witch can manifest herself if her existence is acknowledged by a great many humans and the anti-magic toxin disappears, the power of that magical item can also be preserved if it is believed in by a great many people." "That's ironic. No matter what kind of magic we witches give out, everything depends on whether the human we give it to can accept it." "I have heard that the same goes for medicine. Even with the exact same medicine, humans who know of the medicine's effect experience it to a greater degree." "...Oh, I think I understand. When taking cold medicine, I've gotten the feeling that it's more effective when you read the description on the bottle."As she listened, Beato thought that magic sounded a bit like a charm. When most humans think of magic, they think of incredible miracles being performed one after another in front of a crowd. However, this true magic that the older sister spoke of sounded almost like a charm, something that had no effect if the person using it didn't believe. ...Shannon's heart was captured by George bit by bit as he grew by leaps and bounds. However, she had given up, thinking that one of a different class such as herself would never find love with him. That was when Beatrice had given her the golden butterfly brooch and encouraged her. Giving up means that you have zero chance of success. However, with the power of magic, if you think that there just might be some chance of your wish coming true, the odds of it happening are greater than zero, at the very least. Zero remains zero forever, but if even a faint probability exists, it would be no exaggeration to say that a miracle had occurred since the time that probability had been zero. Humans can use magic to take 'resignation', by which they themselves make the probability of success zero, and cancel it out. When a human does not give up, though their chances of success may be small, those chances do exist. And the more determined they become, the greater those odds rise. It was easy to imagine that Shannon had made earnest wishes upon the brooch, believed in its effect, and tried little things over and over again to get George to like her.  "And those who make others believe are witches."Those who make others believe... are witches. That's an interesting way to put it. If you think about it, it's true. Let's say a witch steps out into a spotlight, waves her staff in front of a crowd of onlookers, and makes a rabbit appear out of thin air. The many people who see it will surely think that it was a sleight of hand. They might wonder at how it was accomplished, but they would be sure that it wasn't magic, and they would applaud the splendid trick that had appeared to be magic. But what if... What if they performed a sacred ceremony inside a great ancient temple in front of a crowd of believers... and ended up with the exact same result? Would any of the people there think that was a sleight of hand? In fact, in the ancient past, when magic tricks as a form of entertainment didn't even exist and divine spirits were worshiped, this would doubtlessly have been a miracle of magic...  BGM: None  "Oh? Will the witch who cannot use magic now perform it for the first time?" "H, here I have an empty tea cup. There is nothing inside it." "Yes, it is empty. *giggle*, and then?" "You take it... turn it like this... and place it upside down on the table." "Heheheheheheh. And then? What next?" "Umm, l, let's both close our eyes and chant the incantation."It was... the same magic that had been used to give Maria candies. Beato the elder grinned and closed her eyes. When she saw this, Beato slowly chanted the incantation.  BGM: Far  "Hmm. Come, try to remember. What was inside the cup?"As she chanted, Beato slowly opened her eyes and made sure that the older sister was repeating her with her eyes closed. Then, a single gold butterfly appeared out of nowhere... fluttered down onto the overturned cup, and scattered away in a golden splash. "May I open my eyes now?" "...Y, yes. Please open your eyes and inspect the contents of the cup." "Well now. Let us see how well your first bit of magic has worked."Taking her time and dragging out the suspense a little, the older sister... lifted up the cup. "...Aha." "H, how is it...?"When the cup was lifted up, there lay... a single golden rose petal.  "C, could this be... magic...?"  BGM: A Single Moment "It may be viewed as a trick. It may also be believed to be magic. It all depends upon the toxin of the individual..." "Then again, while this can explain some of the magic that's been used in the past, it can't explain everything." "To get back to the point, all this stuff about believing in magic and charms... It doesn't answer the question: 'What was this golden butterfly brooch, which allowed the furniture, who strongly believed that they could not love, to finally find love?'" "...If we blindly accept the story of those two Beatos as true, might we assume that magic had the power to cancel out their 'resignation'?" "'Why mustn't furniture fall in love?' 'Why is the power of the magic brooch necessary?' Yes, it does seem at a glance as though what you and the Beatos are saying provides an answer, though a vague one. However, let me say this as a Reader. I can't accept this as you've presented it." "You cannot accept it, you say...?" "...The tragedy those furniture were struggling to resist was something much more immense than this would allow for. I doubt they could reform their way of thinking just because they were given a charm for making relationships." "It's true that the brooch gave Shannon the chance she needed to get together with George onii-chan, but after that, she said she wanted to deepen their relationship without borrowing the power of magic, and she even tried to give the brooch back to Beato. At that point, she supposedly rejected the miracle of magic for a time. In that case, why is that power necessary again?" "Well now. Perhaps there is no way to say it except that love and marriage are very different things."Featherine laughed lightly. She had probably formed a theory of her own and was laughing at Ange, who hadn't reached it yet. "Let me hear it. What's your view?" "I'd like to keep that to myself for just a while longer. And of course, watching you form doubts and let your mind race is one the joys of being read aloud to. If I gave you my views, you would accept them and stop thinking. Then, having you read aloud would be no fun." "...So, you're having me read a mystery novel you already know the answer to, just so you can enjoy watching me blunder about." "Well, I am the Witch of Theatergoing. If you wish to laugh at my bad taste, please do not hold back, my miko." "'Wa ha ha ha.'" "Pft, *giggle*giggle*, hahahahahahaha..." And that magic probably permeates deep into the world of us humans as well. However, though it does permeate so far, the power that dwells within magic is small. Visiting a shrine to pray for success on a test is something that many people do. However, not many people will actually credit that visit as the reason for their success. Praying like this contains no power except as a calming influence. In love, where even a small chance and a little bit of courage can cause a major change, this power might cause a massive upheaval... However, would this insurmountable fate that the furniture claim to be in the middle of... really change because of something like that...? I think that in the past, the magical power of the brooch as it joined Shannon and George was little more than a good-luck charm. However, at this point, the magical power that the furniture are seeking from the brooch... ...It's not something as vague as a charm. It feels much stronger, like a whole different interpretation of magic. If you believe in a sleight of hand, it becomes magic. But that's no more than a child's trick. And that only explains one part of magic. They... are hoping for something. They're hoping for something with much, much more power... for true magic, not a sleight of hand.   BGM: None "There exists a magic charm that the Golden Witch Beatrice gave to Shannon in exchange for smashing a mirror, and which made her love succeed. That's what this is."From his pocket, Kanon pulled a single wing from a gold butterfly. Though it was a single wing, it was easy to tell from its shape that it had originally been part of something with a butterfly motif. "The magic of this brooch gave Shannon the chance she needed to start her relationship with George-sama. However, before that magic was fully realized, she left it to me. So, thanks to the power of this brooch, I gained your affection, Milady." "That's not true... I started liking you because of my own honest feelings..." "...Thank you very much. You are human, so you do not believe in witches or magic. It's only natural. However, as furniture created by magic, my very existence here is proof that the miracle of magic exists." "S, sorry, what are you talking about...?"Jessica sort of grasped the gist of what Kanon was trying to say. However, she couldn't understand it, and had to ask him to repeat it with a bitter smile...  The brooch had lost its power when it was split in half. However, if it was ever joined together again, its magic would be revived. It would revive the miraculous power that could join furniture and a human together... "However, a single brooch can only grant one person's wish. Only one of us furniture can be joined by this single brooch."It was the single live coal of love that the old, shrilly-laughing Beatrice had sown. That Beatrice had likened humans who were tormented by this coal to ripe fruit and had enjoyed it evilly. However, the magic infused within this seed... was real. It was the only crystallization of magic that the Golden Witch Beatrice ever left in this world... Its glint... increased.  BGM: F Style "It's okay. But please don't look right at it. It'll blind you." "Ah, aaaaahhh...!"The glint grew even stronger, shining like the sun. Jessica didn't need Kanon to tell her to put her hands over her eyes... As the light grew stronger, a sound like the roar of the wind or the tide also grew in intensity. The sound of the wind and rain outside had already been overwhelmed... Jessica could no longer even stand, and she crouched on the floor... A flood of sound and light... Until it withdrew, Jessica could do nothing but moan...  
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 22:28 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 13:30
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Qrr posted:I don't really understand what the limits are on Knox's 8th. For example, when we see someone "unlock" a door in the narrative, and we later theorize that they were pretending to unlock it and it was never really locked, is that a violation of the 8th since we don't have evidence that they were lying? How far can we go outside of the story as we saw it? Especially when most of the evidence we were presented with is unreliable, due to unreliable narrator/Knox's 9th. I think back to Knox's original intention: a mystery has to be fair (which underlies most of the rules). This one is, I think, no SHOCKING TWIST! that comes out of nowhere. You've got to give the reader a chance, so they fail by making their own mistakes, not because they weren't given critical information. If that's right, then the door unlocking is fine: everybody knows a door can be locked and unlocked. Saying that Krauss has learned to throw a silver stake with perfect accuracy and such strength that it can crack a human skull is not ok.
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May 22, 2017 14:49
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Ooh, you cliffhangin' bastard, Prof! Some really interesting things being said here, like this:ProfessorProf posted:
I think I've said as much in the past, myself and a few others: magic in the first game was purposefully ill defined, but revealed itself as based on not mystical forces, but belief in the same and the promotion and use of it. I remember that I talked about the "mystics" of the past, the people seen by others as sorcerers or wise-women who to them wielded powers beyond ken but were actually just engaging in more recently discovered science that they kept secret; the magicians trick of pulling a rabbit out of a hat is described and directly connected to the placebo effect in medicine. What the layman thinks of is magic is actually just knowing one or two extra facts, as the man said... well, that's easy enough to follow. What isn't so easy, as Ange wondered this episode, is why such belief is needed for Kanon and Shannon to pursue their respective loves; as Ange pointed out, the only impediment that either couple faces, as their relationships have been presented, are the approvals of their parents, specifically the moms (which isn't an insignificant one), and that's actually not so bad: George in particular seems determined to argue for his courtship and if it doesn't work out, they could always elope. (My granparents eloped; Grandad came to Grandma in the night and helped her out a window, and they drove off into the New Jersey night- it is a thing people do.) And yet a problem remains, and a lot of us have already suspected what it is... the problem of having not two people involved, but one. I mean, how would you even spin that? I know George is an understanding and chaste fella, but saying "Hey, just so you know, I've kinda been wooing your other cousin the whole time because I'm actually Kanon as well/I'm Kanon and actually a boy and also like Jessica" (regardless of whether the "other disguise" thing or other personality thing is real) is a real doozy and if kids are ever going to be a thing, gender will come up sometime. What do you even do then, jump straight into ménage a trois? And how is belief going to help that situation; you can't well believe yourself into two bodies at once, can you?
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May 22, 2017 15:06
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F-style is a good track. I'm even more confused by what the gold truth is now. Is the gold truth subjective truth? And why can not-Beato use it? ProfessorProf posted:
Beato is... Battler? Unless the fake rose garden isn't the same place that the games taking place? Or Lambda was lying for kicks?
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May 22, 2017 15:23
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"...Yes. Gold truth, effective. The gold truth... can only be used by the territory lord of this world... no, only by the Game Master himself!!"
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CottonWolf posted:F-style is a good track. Good point. Maybe piece-Battler isn't Battler's piece anymore. Maybe it's the elder Beato who's Battler's piece, and as such she can use the golden truth. Or maybe, because she's a remnant of Beato, the previous game matter, she still has access to the golden truth. Or maybe she's in a small game-within-the-game to teach nu-Beato what they call magic, and thus, being game master of that game, has access to the gold truth. Pick one that makes you feel best or something, I dunno.
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May 22, 2017 15:35
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ProfessorProf posted:In the same way that Nee-san and George-sama... would never have ended up as they have without borrowing the power of that golden butterfly brooch. Hardly a big deal, but this is actually narration, not Kanon directly talking. CottonWolf posted:Beato is... Battler? Unless the fake rose garden isn't the same place that the games taking place? Or Lambda was lying for kicks? The simplest explanation is that Lambda isn't correct.
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May 22, 2017 15:51
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 "C, could this be... magic...?"Nooooo-ho-hoooo, she's so cute!  Anyway, popping out of my work haze* to back up resurgam, who it looks like has been one of the sole holdouts of S=K=B since I've been gone. What is wrong with you people?? Now it seems like the narration is reallllly pushing that as a possibility, riiiiight? ProfessorProf posted:Both furniture were in relationships of mutual love. There shouldn't have been any need for a miracle any longer. So why... do they still desire some miracle? And on top of that, the single brooch was portrayed as bestowing only a single miracle. It felt almost as though Shannon was hesitating because, if she used up that miracle for herself, Kanon's chances at love would be automatically sealed away for eternity... Usually, love is not a zero-sum game. Just because I love someone doesn't mean my sister can't love someone—even if the object of our affection were the same person, or something absurd like that. That doesn't mean she wouldn't have a chance to steal them away or even just find someone else to love. So why would Shannon's success in love lead to Kanon 1) having to quit Rokkenjima and 2) being unable to love "for eternity"? Let me spell this out: if Shannon marries George, she will essentially take over Sayo's body. There will be no space for Kanon to exist, even as a wacky brother-in-law roommate. He will not be able to love, because he will not be able to exist. And the same applies to the alternate scenario, wherein Kanon succeeds and Shannon must disappear. Now that the mechanics are reasoned out, I have to wonder—what does Sayo want? I think one of the tragedies of this situation is that, as her personalities progress further and further, the person at their core becomes less able to deal with their own poo poo. To me, marrying George and being with Jessica, while posited as good outcomes here, almost seem like attempts to wallpaper over problems that Sayo has still barely been able to face head-on. (I mean gently caress, look at the entire violently passive aggressive premise of the games.) One thing I know for sure is that you can't send your crippling emotional problems to another room and pretend that they're not there. Oh helll no. *also I maybe had to take a tiny mental health break away from the thread  snowflake amirite
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 16:22 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 16:16
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witchcore ricepunk posted:*also I maybe had to take a tiny mental health break away from the thread  "Eh?! A mental health break?" "That's correct. Witchcore Ricepunk has taken to the study to get away from the thread. The vehement denial of the Shannon equals Kanon equals Beatrice theory-"Aunt Eva slammed her hands on the table in outrage. "A likely story! And tell me, Natsuhiiiii, isn't it convenient for you that such a thing would happen?" "E-Eva, maybe you should cool down-" "I've figured out your game, Natsuhi. You can't hide anything from me!"Her meaning... was clear to everyone in the room.   "There's no way- you're not seriously implying what I think you're implying, are you?!" "Of course, Battler! Resurgam, Witchcore, Peas, bman, Cottonwolf, Cyouni, ZiegeDame, AAAAAAAALL OF THEM, T H E Y N E V E R R E A L L Y E X I S T E D , R I G H T ? !"There was a cold silence in the air. A second passed... then two... then three... and then, the creak of Ronove's cart snapped me out of my stupor.  "You say this any time any of them says anything!"  "Indeed. This refrain is getting old even for an Endless Witch, Milady." "E-eh?! Well, of course! Newbies don't [exist]! Everyone knows that! Everyone!" "Go home, Aunt Eva. You're drunk."
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May 22, 2017 17:02
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bman in 2288 posted:Good point. Maybe piece-Battler isn't Battler's piece anymore. Maybe it's the elder Beato who's Battler's piece, and as such she can use the golden truth. Or maybe, because she's a remnant of Beato, the previous game matter, she still has access to the golden truth. Or maybe she's in a small game-within-the-game to teach nu-Beato what they call magic, and thus, being game master of that game, has access to the gold truth. My initial interpretation, based on a sample size of one, is that while Red Truth is used deny theories and can be crafted to mislead or constrain, Gold Truth can only be used in a positive sense, to confirm something about the ultimate solution to the puzzle. Thus it can only be used by someone who knows the whole truth, and knowing the whole truth is the only qualification to be a game master.
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May 22, 2017 17:07
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I very much enjoyed this. E: witchcore ricepunk posted:Now that the mechanics are reasoned out, I have to wonder—what does Sayo want? I think one of the tragedies of this situation is that, as her personalities progress further and further, the person at their core becomes less able to deal with their own poo poo. To me, marrying George and being with Jessica, while posited as good outcomes here, almost seem like attempts to wallpaper over problems that Sayo has still barely been able to face head-on. I definitely read this update as implying that Kanon and Jessica are into each other through a combination of no-other-options and hormones. I just keep wondering if they're pushing too hard at this point. It's too believable, which sounds insane, but this is where Umineko has lead us. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 17:17 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 17:14
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alcharagia posted:
 don't do this evatrice
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May 22, 2017 17:24
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I honestly appreciate that you didn't capitalize my name. And my lack of existence, as well as all the other new guys in this thread, does shed some light on the truth in Rokkenjima: this poo poo be cray.
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May 22, 2017 17:31
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alcharagia posted:
stop posting logs of our witchchat convos.
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May 22, 2017 17:34
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alcharagia... you made so laugh so hard just now. Perfection 
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May 22, 2017 17:36
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CottonWolf posted:That line's always read as weird. But I'm not sure where it gets you. Unless, of course, if the original Battler is still alive. We vaguely theorised that it could be Kanon in the last thread, but there are only so many people that Kanon can simultaneously be. I was sure that the fact that he was hiding his name was going to lead to a twist about his identity, but it actually seems like a un-twisty name. Oh, to clarify, I don't think original Battler is someone else, I think it's more personality shenanigans, whatever happened six years ago that caused Beatrice's birth also caused a new Battler, one with no memory of various horrible things that had happened to him. Of course it's debateable if just repressing things could lead to being counted as another personality, but there you go. My reasoning is that as this Battler didn't exist until six years ago, he was technically not born from his body's mother, and the stuff about the "real Battler" Though we don't have much details on six years ago, just that it involves a promise I think, but I like taking minor details and coming up with outlandish poo poo, it's fun, and I've even been right once or twice 
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May 22, 2017 18:23
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alcharagia posted:beauty This thread is magic. But yeah, Shannon=Kanon=Beatrice. One body means that only one boyfriendo/girlfriendo can be chosen. Dating is a real murder sometimes, amirite?
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May 22, 2017 18:36
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This game wouldn't be the same without drunk theory posting. Except they're all Beatrice actually. Are these scene's of Kanon/Jessica supposed to give off so much deja vü of episode 2?
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May 22, 2017 19:52
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EagerSleeper posted:This thread is magic. The main reason I'm suspicious of this is that we have Battler creating a game to troll Erika (or at least I hope it's to troll Erika, that's what I would want to do). And it seems like the best way to do that is to imply something ridiculous and get her to believe it. So while it's possible that Shannon and Kanon are the same body, almost all of the evidence for it comes from this episode. There are a couple of things in the past that make sense with it, and it doesn't seem to be contradicted, but frankly there are a ton of things that aren't contradicted when you distrust everything that wasn't seen by a detective or in red. And it makes things so much more complicated. You need them to get around the house quickly, to change clothes quickly, and we need to figure out what the heck Natsuhi knows or thinks about it, because she definitely pays attention to the servants.
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May 22, 2017 20:43
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I do have to wonder why Battler's game is constantly throwing out "only one of the two can achieve their relationship" when this was in no way suggested during episode 2. The opposite was implied, actually - Shannon constantly suggested that it would be possible for both her and Kanon to see the blue of the sea. Even so, unless the wall of purple that I've set up between Shannon and Kanon can be broken, they cannot be the same person. The constant refrain of 'belief becomes magic' suggests that it's only their lack of belief that they can both succeed that prevents them from doing so. The use of gold text here is interesting, especially given how the two uses seem to be diametrically opposed. We have: I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!! You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic. (temporarily using bold, italic fixed to represent gold text) The first would seem to fall under mystery, while the second under fantasy. Magic-Battler and Aku-Beato really share only one point of commonality - that since they understand the whole of the game, they possess the qualifications to become Game Master. Also interesting note that during episode 2 and its candy sleight-of-hand, the two people noted to have one of those candies were Battler and Kanon. 
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May 22, 2017 21:11
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ProfessorProf posted:
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May 22, 2017 21:11
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Qrr posted:The main reason I'm suspicious of this is that we have Battler creating a game to troll Erika (or at least I hope it's to troll Erika, that's what I would want to do). And it seems like the best way to do that is to imply something ridiculous and get her to believe it.  Disagreed. The similarities in portrait designs has been consistent throughout earlier games, including the seacats version. In addition to that, in all of the games so far, none of the characters (narration doesn't count because it claims magic is real) directly say something to the effect of "Hey, Shannon and Kanon, who I'm most definitely referring to as being here in the same room and time, go do separate tasks or talk about separate subjects." The issue with them being having to change clothes often is solved by the scheduled shifts that the servants have. Shannon can go punch out after a long day, and then go change and be ready to punch right back in as Kanon. Surely someone in the mansion must have noticed by now, right? Sure, but I think it's just another thing that people are okay with just like everyone goes along with Kinzo's magic studies, or witches. Not everyone has to be in on the secret. Probably just Kumasawa and Genji. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 22:04 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 22:01
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EagerSleeper posted:
I had forgotten about the portrait thing, true. The shift thing requires that they be doing literally twice as much work as the other servants, which seems tough, especially since George and Jessica would probably try to hang out together during their "time off". And I think Natsuhi would have to be in on it, because she arranges the servants. Its not impossible that she'd be okay with it but I'd expect her to mention it after murder started happening.
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May 22, 2017 22:24
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EagerSleeper posted:
Either way, you still run smack dab into the red. There are five servants, and five keys, and we know each servant holds exactly one. To get past this red, you must show proof that Shannon/Kanon only holds one key, and preferably proof of someone holding another key that could be considered a servant. From episode 2 alone, we can tell that Kanon and Shannon hold their own keys, as Kanon's is found on Jessica, and Shannon gives hers to Natsuhi. Qrr posted:And I think Natsuhi would have to be in on it, because she arranges the servants. Its not impossible that she'd be okay with it but I'd expect her to mention it after murder started happening. Especially true after they find both bodies during episode 3.
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May 22, 2017 22:39
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In regards to Natsuhi doing the scheduling and whether she knows about Shannon/Kanon, I have two minds about that. Either she doesn't know about the secret (most likely), or she DOES know which could go into a possible reason why Mystery Caller 3000 from last episode wanted to dispose of her in addition to cliff baby reasons. No scheduling secrets must get out.  Running into the red truth is difficult, but there will surely be a way around it since there's so much evidence going on that points to them being the same person. I'm still lost on the master key dilemma, but looking at how often the characters dance around on specifically mentioning Shannon and Kanon being present at the same time is proof enough. Ryukishi07 is making a deliberate choice here just by choosing what NOT to say.
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May 22, 2017 23:01
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I'm not going to argue against anybody's pet theory, but I don't see the point of Shannon = Kanon. Does it solve any of the mysteries?
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May 23, 2017 01:24
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BurningStone posted:I'm not going to argue against anybody's pet theory, but I don't see the point of Shannon = Kanon. Does it solve any of the mysteries? When red truth is involved in declaring certain characters 'dead,' then yes. Shannon has been declared dead multiple times, but there's always 'Sayo' to fall back on, and possibly commit more murders. Now it turns out, that there's so many other personalities to deal with and deflect red truth with. One of the issues is that in the murder mysteries, there's a lot of closed room scenarios that are being confounded by everyone inside the room being dead (or worse, 'dead') and the presence of master keys. The way that we as an audience are told to solve these closed rooms is by using the red truth given to us. Red truth, while technically true, is mostly used by witches in favor of a false deduction of events (e.g. "magic is real ahahaha"). Being able to subvert the red truth is a major goal of the game.
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May 23, 2017 01:57
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