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BurningStone posted:I'm not going to argue against anybody's pet theory, but I don't see the point of Shannon = Kanon. Does it solve any of the mysteries? I think it definitely solves the really sticky mysteries in episode 3: the closed room chain, George's murder, Jessica wandering off, Nanjo's murder.
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May 23, 2017 04:31
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witchcore ricepunk posted:I think it definitely solves the really sticky mysteries in episode 3: the closed room chain, George's murder, Jessica wandering off, Nanjo's murder. I suppose the other question is - what mysteries does it solve that aren't already solved by alternatepersonality-Beatrice?
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May 23, 2017 04:35
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Cyouni posted:I suppose the other question is - what mysteries does it solve that aren't already solved by alternatepersonality-Beatrice? 
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May 23, 2017 07:12
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How so, exactly? I'm pretty sure Kanon=Beatrice solves that one just fine. What extra mystery does adding Shannon to the personality pot solve?
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May 23, 2017 07:20
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Cyouni posted:Either way, you still run smack dab into the red. There are five servants, and five keys, and we know each servant holds exactly one. To get past this red, you must show proof that Shannon/Kanon only holds one key, and preferably proof of someone holding another key that could be considered a servant. With some distance, I'm not too hot on Shannon=Kanon again, just because the story seems to be pushing it too hard. But that said, this isn't a problem for the theory. Someone pointed out earlier, I believe, the fact that there are five servants and five keys, does not rule out the possibility of there being five servants in four bodies with one body holding two keys. If they get different schedules, Kanon and Shannon are different servants, body sharing or not. There's nothing stopping the Kanon/Shannon body having Kanon's key that Kanon uses and Shannon's key that Shannon uses.
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May 23, 2017 12:39
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CottonWolf posted:With some distance, I'm not too hot on Shannon=Kanon again, just because the story seems to be pushing it too hard. But that said, this isn't a problem for the theory. Someone pointed out earlier, I believe, the fact that there are five servants and five keys, does not rule out the possibility of there being five servants in four bodies with one body holding two keys. If they get different schedules, Kanon and Shannon are different servants, body sharing or not. There's nothing stopping the Kanon/Shannon body having Kanon's key that Kanon uses and Shannon's key that Shannon uses. You do have to get a bit conspiracy theory to explain that though, unless ShKannon is really good at drag someone must know, (and be surprisingly cool with it for this household in 80s Japan) It's not outside the realm of possibility though. And tbh I don't think there's any explanation for this poo poo that isn't a bit conspiracy theory... I don't even know what I believe right now really.
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May 23, 2017 13:07
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Kinzo is a westaboo, though. He might not care as much.
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May 23, 2017 13:34
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Tired Moritz posted:Kinzo is a westaboo, though. He might not care as much. I doubt Kinzo cares about much of anything, considering he is super duper dead right now.
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May 23, 2017 15:48
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Tired Moritz posted:Kinzo is a westaboo, though. He might not care as much. Most of Kinzo's contact with the West came in the 1940s and 50s. The pinnacle of acceptance of gender variance, to be sure.
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May 23, 2017 15:52
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Tired Moritz posted:Kinzo is a westaboo, though. He might not care as much. After he died, he definitely didn't care as much, but before...remember this is the guy that was all "women are just supposed to be breeding mares for the Ushiromiya line, they don't need education or anything". This is Kinzo we're talking about here. CottonWolf posted:With some distance, I'm not too hot on Shannon=Kanon again, just because the story seems to be pushing it too hard. But that said, this isn't a problem for the theory. Someone pointed out earlier, I believe, the fact that there are five servants and five keys, does not rule out the possibility of there being five servants in four bodies with one body holding two keys. If they get different schedules, Kanon and Shannon are different servants, body sharing or not. There's nothing stopping the Kanon/Shannon body having Kanon's key that Kanon uses and Shannon's key that Shannon uses. It does specify that each servant holds exactly one key. If they used "is given to each servant" or something like that, I could see it, but "only one of each is held by each servant" is a little harder.
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May 23, 2017 15:53
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Anybody who thinks Kinzo, Krauss, and Natsuhi are live and let live free thinkers hasn't been reading the same story as me. Natsuhi in particular worships at the altar of tradition, even when it sucks for her. That itself doesn't disprove S=K, but you need to do better than "everybody knows but pretends they don't."
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May 23, 2017 16:52
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Yeah, I definitely do not think that anyone knew about Shannon and Kanon except maybe Genji, since he was in charge of scheduling and there's no way he wouldn't know. As for the reason why he'd be a consistent accomplice? Bribery is always a good motive, I think. That or, since Sayo solved the epitaph and is the true head of the family, he's so locked in to his own ideals that he'd be willing to do anything for them because of their status. And I can believe that Natsuhi and Krauss would have no idea about this because of how self-involved they've been shown to be. As for Kinzo? That's harder to speculate about, because he's been dead.
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May 23, 2017 17:51
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But why did Hideyoshi tell everyone he was looking at Shannon's mutilated corpse in the shed when there was nothing there and Shanon-as Kanon was standing in the same room?
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May 23, 2017 18:05
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ZiegeDame posted:But why did Hideyoshi tell everyone he was looking at Shannon's mutilated corpse in the shed when there was nothing there and Shanon-as Kanon was standing in the same room? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNTBb1u6UGg
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May 23, 2017 18:35
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Yeah, I definitely do not think that anyone knew about Shannon and Kanon except maybe Genji, since he was in charge of scheduling and there's no way he wouldn't know. As for the reason why he'd be a consistent accomplice? Bribery is always a good motive, I think. That or, since Sayo solved the epitaph and is the true head of the family, he's so locked in to his own ideals that he'd be willing to do anything for them because of their status. And I can believe that Natsuhi and Krauss would have no idea about this because of how self-involved they've been shown to be. As for Kinzo? That's harder to speculate about, because he's been dead. Natsuhi and Krauss were explicitly mentioned as having been in charge of scheduling (at least location-wise), given how it was mentioned they effectively 'banished' all One-Winged Eagle servants to the guesthouse area. There is no way they could not have known.
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May 23, 2017 18:37
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It all makes sense now...
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May 23, 2017 18:54
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Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. All known payoffs have been sent to the conspirator's next of kin, suggesting the conspirators did not expect to leave the island alive. Hideyoshi's next of kin is also on the island. Furthermore, there is no mention of Hideyoshi having other family, nor of any mysterious package delivered to Eva.
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May 23, 2017 18:59
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Ah, but we do have a payoff, don't we; an actual mountain of gold, on this very island confirmed this very game. And we also know about his monetary troubles as well, so I reiterate a claim I made in the last thread: The Culprit came to Hideyoshi and Eva privately, after the children, Krauss and Natsuhi have turned in, and offers them a deal: they play along with the "fake" murder in the shed and control the scene, to the point of pretending Shannon's corpse is there, in exchange for the gold and proof of the elder siblings' trickery regarding Kinzo. They do not know the murder is genuine, nor do they ever know until they are killed. This proposition does not go against the characters of either Hideyoshi or Eva, especially since Eva was almost certainly part of a similar conspiracy last chapter.
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May 23, 2017 19:22
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Speaking of Knox, hasn't it been confirmed that Eva was not actually the culprit in the 3rd game since she was the main perspective character?ZiegeDame posted:But why did Hideyoshi tell everyone he was looking at Shannon's mutilated corpse in the shed when there was nothing there and Shanon-as Kanon was standing in the same room? I'm probably going to have to look up the first game's LP, but it's possible that Shannon was pretending to be dead, while Kanon was merely a narrative trick. Perhaps Kanon led everyone to the shed, then snuck off, climbed through a shed window and hid as Shannon. I'm going to be rereading that scene in particular though, because I don't remember it so clearly.
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May 23, 2017 19:41
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resurgam40 posted:They do not know the murder is genuine, nor do they ever know until they are killed. There were five corpses with mutilated heads. There was a very recognizable Krauss with half his face smashed to a pulp. There is no way anyone (anyone as smart as Eva anyway) saw this and thought these murders were a fake. EagerSleeper posted:I'm probably going to have to look up the first game's LP, but it's possible that Shannon was pretending to be dead, while Kanon was merely a narrative trick. Perhaps Kanon led everyone to the shed, then snuck off, climbed through a shed window and hid as Shannon. I'm going to be rereading that scene in particular though, because I don't remember it so clearly. While Kanon has been established as an expert at sneaking off unnoticed, I'm gonna call bullshit on Kanon opening the door, sneaking off, changing clothes, and then somehow faking missing half a face, without anyone even noticing he was gone.
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May 23, 2017 19:46
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. You know, Ange got a package, too. So I don't think it's a payoff to conspirators as much as... reparations, perhaps? Additionally, the timeline shows that the culprit mailed out the packages before the family conference, so perhaps they weren't expecting anyone who was on Rokkenjima to actually make it out. So of course Eva wouldn't have gotten one. This doesn't mean that the accomplices were fed a different story, however. As for a clue as to the likelihood of bribing any given Ushiromiya... 
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May 23, 2017 19:53
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Using that reasoning you could say every single person on the island had been paid off But here's another thought: all the payouts we have evidence for were sent out the day before the conference. So we cannot say any other payoffs were made after that time without further evidence. (EP 2 Rosa being shown in a room with gold, and later clutching that gold while fighting goats is the sort of evidence I'm talking about.) If Hideyoshi had already been bribed with fat stacks, why would he participate in the conspiracy to squeeze money out of Krauss? Most of the deals they try to force Krauss to accept actually work out badly for the younger siblings in the long run, assuming the gold is real and discovered. And if Hideyoshi had gotten a few hundred million yen from a servant, he'd have to know or suspect that the gold is real.
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May 23, 2017 20:07
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ZiegeDame posted:If Hideyoshi had already been bribed with fat stacks, why would he participate in the conspiracy to squeeze money out of Krauss? Why wouldn't he? "Oh yeah guys, that Krauss extortion thing we planned? Yeah never mind, not saying why but me and Eva are out" Plus it's extra money if it works out so why not
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May 23, 2017 20:11
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Again, this becomes far more complicated than necessary to explain something that solves no problems that aren't already solved. It creates a whole slew of problems (episode 1 and 3 in particular) and solves none. It'd requires the vast majority of people on the island to know about it and yet not care when multiple bodies for that person show up, and skirt the eyes of the detective multiple times by claiming "you don't know what they saw" when it's been shown that doesn't work as an excuse. It's so much preparation and reshaping for something that in the end, really doesn't do anything to help solve the mystery. EagerSleeper posted:Speaking of Knox, hasn't it been confirmed that Eva was not actually the culprit in the 3rd game since she was the main perspective character? If it were that easy, the whole episode 4 Gohda/Kumasawa murder wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Edit: The only information regarding reparation money is the safety deposit box information after George's death in episode 3. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 20:34 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 20:22
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ZiegeDame posted:There were five corpses with mutilated heads. There was a very recognizable Krauss with half his face smashed to a pulp. There is no way anyone (anyone as smart as Eva anyway) saw this and thought these murders were a fake. There's been a lot of back and forth in between characters (I think it was Meta Battler and Beatrice?) about the face issue. It was determined possible that a person pretending to have a smashed face could be hiding amongst the truly dead bodies. After all, Nanjo is the only doctor on the island who could determine who is actually dead, but he's not reliable since he might be involved with the conspiracy. Also Nanjo... I know he's a doctor, but perhaps he's one of the people to whom the fifth master key would be given to, if not ShKanon? Also I did reread the section about the first game's shed murder. It seems like there is a Shannon corpse (probably not dead), along with Kanon being ordered by Natsuhi to take Battler's group to the guest house. Hmmm, this is hard to put together since I'm honestly pretty convinced of ShKanon being a thing. Maybe the Shannon corpse is not actually Shannon? The way that the corpse was kept hidden from inspection by Hideyoshi is indeed kinda suspicious. This whole thing about Shannon=Kanon allows for the number of people on the island to still be 18 in accordance to the red truth. Perhaps there is an additional human who was being obscured under these conditions?
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May 23, 2017 20:36
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Cyouni posted:and skirt the eyes of the detective multiple times by claiming "you don't know what they saw" when it's been shown that doesn't work as an excuse. Battler is incompetent. From the very beginning we as the audience have been asked to solve the mystery ourselves. There are narrative tricks at play that are intentionally misleading. quote:If it were that easy, the whole episode 4 Gohda/Kumasawa murder wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Wait, is this this the one with the nooses in the shed? Gohda was found dead once he was left alone with Kumasawa. Kumasawa is a goddamn murderer. (Whhhhyyyyy? I loved you, fish grandma....)
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May 23, 2017 20:46
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EagerSleeper posted:Wait, is this this the one with the nooses in the shed? Gohda was found dead once he was left alone with Kumasawa. Kumasawa is a goddamn murderer. (Whhhhyyyyy? I loved you, fish grandma....) Reminder that they were both actually shot, not hanged.
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May 23, 2017 20:49
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EagerSleeper posted:Battler is incompetent. From the very beginning we as the audience have been asked to solve the mystery ourselves. There are narrative tricks at play that are intentionally misleading. Narrative tricks, yes, but none ever put under the eye of the detective. We've even had specific things saying the eye of the detective is not allowed to be deceived - episode 5 being the most obvious one, with the whole "slashed necks" being not-a-thing since Erika never actually saw that, and how Battler was able to see Kinzo since he wasn't the detective. It's been constantly established that narrative tricks are fair game, so long as they're not seen by the detective. Straight up according to Dlanor:  "Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!"
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May 23, 2017 20:56
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EagerSleeper posted:Speaking of Knox, hasn't it been confirmed that Eva was not actually the culprit in the 3rd game since she was the main perspective character She was the point of view, but Battler was still the detective, she also saw herself as a witch, and that's not real. At least really-real, it was probably real to her.
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May 23, 2017 21:57
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EagerSleeper posted:There's been a lot of back and forth in between characters (I think it was Meta Battler and Beatrice?) about the face issue. It was determined possible that a person pretending to have a smashed face could be hiding amongst the truly dead bodies. We have red that all dead bodies belong to whom they seem to belong. The "body" can be a person playing dead, but it can't be somebody else's body made up to look like them. Beatrice said it first, and Lambda extended it to all games. I have a meta suspicion that there won't be any correct answers where one revelation solves a large number of mysteries. I think the author wants us to work through problems in ones and twos, not just say "Oh, same solution."
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May 23, 2017 21:58
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EagerSleeper posted:There's been a lot of back and forth in between characters (I think it was Meta Battler and Beatrice?) about the face issue. It was determined possible that a person pretending to have a smashed face could be hiding amongst the truly dead bodies. After all, Nanjo is the only doctor on the island who could determine who is actually dead, but he's not reliable since he might be involved with the conspiracy. It's pretty much 100% certain at this point that Nanjo is a co-conspirator. That said, you don't have to be a doctor to know that someone with half their skull turned to jelly is dead. They establish that pretty firmly in Episode 4. quote:This whole thing about Shannon=Kanon allows for the number of people on the island to still be 18 in accordance to the red truth. Perhaps there is an additional human who was being obscured under these conditions? Knox's 1st exists precisely to smother this sort of reasoning in the cradle.
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May 23, 2017 23:27
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Progressing through the beginning of chapter 2, I can see where the basis of the Moon-chan theory comes from. I don't think it has any relevance on the murders (Jessica, overall, probably has some of the strongest alibis), but Shannon's imagining of Beatrice is eerily similar to Jessica. The way Beatrice speaks seems like a toned-up version of how Jessica sometimes does, not to mention how Jessica was the original one to push the George/Shannon relationship forward. Not to mention how they talk and act as friends, almost exactly the same way Jessica and Shannon do. What I'm trying to get at is that Shannon's proto-Beatrice feels like a reimagining of Jessica in the same way the guns turned into the Chiesters, Kumasawa into Virgilia, and Genji into Ronove. On a different note, if the security deposit box numbers during episode 3 are signs of a co-conspirator, sent to their next of kin, wouldn't George have to be a co-conspirator in that scene?
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May 23, 2017 23:48
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I took the payments as evidence of a second conspiracy, rather than a larger single one. Eva feels bad that she's going to murder everybody..... But maybe Shannon found the gold and turned some into cash. A larger problem: the code for the safe deposit was 11280715, right? That's Battler's birthday paired with another, cliff baby's I assume. Who knew that?
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May 24, 2017 01:03
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BurningStone posted:I took the payments as evidence of a second conspiracy, rather than a larger single one. Eva feels bad that she's going to murder everybody..... That's a pretty big assumption there, buddy. All we really know about November 29th is it's less than two months after the family conference, and it isn't anyone's birthday that we know.
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May 24, 2017 01:15
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ZiegeDame posted:It's pretty much 100% certain at this point that Nanjo is a co-conspirator. Yeah, I agree. I think he knows way more than he lets on. I wonder if he'll have his own confession later on? Cyouni posted:Again, this becomes far more complicated than necessary to explain something that solves no problems that aren't already solved. It creates a whole slew of problems (episode 1 and 3 in particular) and solves none. It'd requires the vast majority of people on the island to know about it and yet not care when multiple bodies for that person show up, and skirt the eyes of the detective multiple times by claiming "you don't know what they saw" when it's been shown that doesn't work as an excuse. I don't think so... especially if by "vast majority," you mean like, two other servants. The Ushiromiya accomplices don't even have to be told the whole truth, either—just enough to get them to play along.
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May 24, 2017 03:16
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witchcore ricepunk posted:
Still curious how you imagine Natsuhi not knowing about it. She is not hands off with the servants. She pays attention to them and their schedules. There are possible arguments that she knows about it and accepts it, though they're difficult. But I think her not knowing about it would be very unlikely.
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May 24, 2017 03:33
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Yeah, I agree. I think he knows way more than he lets on. I wonder if he'll have his own confession later on? I don't know about a confession scene. By my reckoning all he really has to do declare a few people dead who are not, and maybe open/close a window or two in Episode 3.
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May 24, 2017 03:52
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ZiegeDame posted:I don't know about a confession scene. By my reckoning all he really has to do declare a few people dead who are not, and maybe open/close a window or two in Episode 3. You have to wonder, though... who do you think delivered the cliff baby? Qrr posted:Still curious how you imagine Natsuhi not knowing about it. She is not hands off with the servants. She pays attention to them and their schedules. I guess you've never had a boss who didn't really see their employees as people; not even enough to really take a good look at them.
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May 24, 2017 03:54
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ZiegeDame posted:That's a pretty big assumption there, buddy. Yea, I'm just guessing. But it's not just somebody's birthday; we ruled out everybody's birthday, even Ange. Cliff baby is the only person left I could come up with. No, I suppose it could be 1967 Beatrice. Beato doesn't get a birthday, I suppose. You forget stuff over a 1000 years.
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May 24, 2017 04:02
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witchcore ricepunk posted:
It's not about seeing them as people, it's about her saying, for example, "Kanon will escort the children to the guesthouse while Shanon serves tea to the adults". She may not notice they're the same person by sight, but she controls their schedules and she'd have low tolerance for "sorry, I can't work at that time because <insert excuse for being two people>".
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May 24, 2017 04:12
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