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Pharohman777 posted:So its literally "Are you going to bribe me or not?" That explicitly? it's more like tax evading, really
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May 21, 2017 09:42
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Pharohman777 posted:So its literally "Are you going to bribe me or not?" That explicitly? That's just tax evasion (undeclared sales). Everyday corruption refers to things like small businesses not having permits or paperwork, knockoff products or pirated films being sold in the open, being able to discuss with your phone/cable guy if you can get an off-the-books installation, half-jokingly telling a cop that pulls you over if you can give him money for lunch and drinks instead of writing you a ticket (and them usually not getting super offended about it), getting in the good side of low level bureaucrats so you'll be treated with with better attention, getting in the good side of mid-level bureaucrats so you will be treated with much better attention, and the far most common you'll see: people bragging about partaking in the above.
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May 21, 2017 11:48
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Undeclared services and sales. I have never been to a doctor in Brazil where they didn't ask that, and there is always a difference in price between with receipt and without receipt. And if it is with a receipt, there is always the question about "whose name do you want on the receipt?" My father in law was disabled so he didn't pay income taxes, so his family would always get receipts in his brother in law's name so he could use those as deductions. Of course, the other part that gringos aren't also used to is the fact that on paper Brazil has much, much harsher laws than the US. A lot of the political scandals in Brazil would not even be crimes in the US, especially after McDonnell vs. United States. But the extremely harsh laws have a purpose: to my friends everything, to my enemies the law.
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May 21, 2017 16:30
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joepinetree posted:Undeclared services and sales. I have never been to a doctor in Brazil where they didn't ask that, and there is always a difference in price between with receipt and without receipt. And if it is with a receipt, there is always the question about "whose name do you want on the receipt?" My father in law was disabled so he didn't pay income taxes, so his family would always get receipts in his brother in law's name so he could use those as deductions. Just how harsh are brazilian laws on paper compared to american ones? It sounds like the corruption in brazilian politics is merely the deals and such that go on between people at the interpersonal level, but scaled up to corporations and politicians, and made far more unpalatable for the public as the corruption moves from 'buying lunch for a cop pulling you over' to 'corporation bribes governemt to sell rotten meat'.
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May 21, 2017 16:41
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Political contributions are very heavily regulated in Brazil, and there is virtually no way for a corporation to spend money on an election indirectly. The whole PAC/super PAC thing would not be legal in Brazil. In fact, in recent years corporations cannot donate money to campaigns at all. Which is why virtually every candidate gets off the books donations.
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May 21, 2017 17:21
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Pharohman777 posted:Just how harsh are brazilian laws on paper compared to american ones? Also, abortion is a crime here. Which usually means nothing, as we still get around 400k of those a year. But it creates another one of those divides beloved by authoritarians/moralists: You can get one if you need (because YOUR abortion is morel. Or your daughter isn't going to have some loser's kid, dammit!) and also despair at all the evil babykillers sinking the country with their immorality and someone should DO something! The only thing able shift the brazilian center toward a true center-left would be the evangelical block coming to power and starting to prosecute abortion for real. Get some upper-middle class blonde teenagers from the Rio de Janeiro elite in jail and on TV and all of a sudden everyone will remember to care about progressivism outside of Helsinki and Paris. You can bet It would shock the 'progressive' middle class back to their senses, at least for a bit, regarding the manner of political company they've been keeping. Then again, seeing the current status quo...no, not even that.
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May 21, 2017 21:53
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Pharohman777 posted:Just how harsh are brazilian laws on paper compared to american ones? Our laws and bureaucracy are crazily complex, hard and severe, which is partly because of corruption ("people dont follow the laws so lets make the laws harder!") and causes more corruption (the crazy bureaucracy makes things so hard and expensive that people will look for ways around it to get anything done). And that on everything: from giving money to campaings, to hiring people, opening a business, getting licenses to do stuff, renting an apartment etc. Really everything is heavily (and irrationally) regulated by kafkan laws and bureaucracy, that are also very unefficiently managed and enforced And all in all, we have to admit that we, as a people, are not very used to follow laws and regulations. In RPG terms, I would say that Brazil is a "chaotic good" country: people are mostly well intentioned (specially, or almost exclusively, when it comes to taking care of their own, their family and friends), but nobody likes to follow rules. We say that all politicians are thieves and they really are, but the typical Brazilian will break the law in his own life very often, will try to take illegal and immoral advantages on everything (we call that our "little ways", "jeitinho"), and without even thinking about it Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 22:09 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 22:00
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This is basically a description of a failed state-particularly one with severe organized crime structures that have an incentive to normalize corruption by making all subjects complicit.
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May 21, 2017 22:17
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I got my permanent residency in Brazil earlier this year and it was a nice introduction to bureaucracy on steroids. Maybe the federal police is different but at no point was I solicited for bribes (and I certainly didn't try). One returning theme is the complete lack of agency of government workers, if you don't draw exactly within the lines they just tell you to come back tomorrow, get additional documents or visit some agency for stamps. The highlight was a misspelling on a consular document that could only be rectified at the ministry of foreign affairs that I had to visit two days in a row as I was wearing shorts on the first. The office was just around the corner and the correction took 30 seconds but the guard was happy to send me away. He gave me advice where I could buy cheap pants. There seems to be this catch 22 of "we need more rules and limit civil worker power to combat corruption" that eventually turns into "there's too many rules, just bribe to get anything done". It's also pretty inconsistent, trying for permanent residency based on a civil union was nearly impossible according to federal police in Brazil and a routine job with half the paperwork at the consulate in Europe.
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May 21, 2017 22:58
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It's not a failed state by any definition that i know of. It is more about selective enforcement, not no enforcement. It is the result of a highly unequal society by design. The same thing that leads to harsh laws also lead to some pretty generous rights. The laws protecting consumers and defendants are incredibly comprehensive. But you have to have the money to hire a lawyer and a willingness to spend years in court. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 00:28 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 23:11
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This poo poo is also the norm both across the world and across human history.
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May 22, 2017 00:20
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Well, it is a matter of degree, not absolutes. You don't get to spend most of your Republican history as the most unequal country on earth without putting some effort into it.
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May 22, 2017 00:33
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Here's one hot take that I have on brazilians complaining about "jeitinho brasileiro", the general populace being hopelessly corrupt and bad etc: It's coded racism. At least here in the south, for sure. Because white people here don't see themselves as brazilians, they feel like they're pretty much "italian/polish/german/whatever" who are are the honest exceptions. It just happened that they live in brazil and speak portuguese. I mean I guess what I'm saying is that it's a mix of "everyone is a bad driver but me" bias mixed with racism.
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May 22, 2017 00:42
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That is certainly part of how people can reconcile complaining about corruption and the "jeitinho" in others while engaging in it themselves. And to be clear, I am not suggesting that there is some sort of corrupt essence in Brazil. It is simply the result of a society that is unequal by design. It is also part of how the traditional right can complain about PT corruption and Lula drinking expensive wines while voting PSDB 100% of the time.
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May 22, 2017 01:06
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Symbolic Butt posted:Here's one hot take that I have on brazilians complaining about "jeitinho brasileiro", the general populace being hopelessly corrupt and bad etc: I wouldn't necessarily say racism, but anything that allows you to feel superior to your peers, like classism. In my experience in the US, individualism for the americans (at least the ones in big cities) is like "I won't cause trouble for anyone so no one will cause trouble for me". In Brazil it's kinda like "everyone else fucks everyone else up so I gotta do it too", or "I'll allow myself to bypass these laws or unwritten social rules because I'm a successful person and I already gave so much and work so much harder than everyone else, I deserve a break" This is exactly why brazillian tourists are awful. Most of them believe that by the simple fact of affording an overseas trip, they feel entitled to treat service workers poorly, especially non americans. They also feel like everyone should give them a break for their poor behavior. Which brings me to the silver lining: In the US people will berate you in public if you're doing something wrong or being an rear end in a top hat. In Brazil that's a quick way to start a fight with possible casualties, so no one does it. Whenever I'm in NYC I feel the utmost pleasure in seeing police and other people screaming at clueless Noveau Riche Brazilians, who get extreme cultural shock from it.
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May 22, 2017 02:38
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Oh the old brazilian pessimism/self-hate is also a factor, for sure. I just wanted to point out on this specific instance that there's a racist thing going on (you can call it classist, but let's be honest here, there's a clear correlation on skin color and class). Sometimes it's really obvious when white people use terms like "the brazilian race" when talking about people being corrupt.nerdz posted:This is exactly why brazillian tourists are awful. Most of them believe that by the simple fact of affording an overseas trip, they feel entitled to treat service workers poorly, especially non americans. They also feel like everyone should give them a break for their poor behavior. Yeah but here's the thing, I wouldn't say it's a problem with brazilian culture, because 1. most brazilians can't afford to travel outside the country 2. the brazilians who actually can is in a small privileged minority, so of course they're mostly composed of entitled assholes You can't derive a significant conclusion about general brazilian culture from this sample. So to be more exact this is "rich people from unequal places" culture.
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May 22, 2017 03:28
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Symbolic Butt posted:Oh the old brazilian pessimism/self-hate is also a factor, for sure. I just wanted to point out on this specific instance that there's a racist thing going on (you can call it classist, but let's be honest here, there's a clear correlation on skin color and class). Sometimes it's really obvious when white people use terms like "the brazilian race" when talking about people being corrupt. I think I completely misunderstood your point. You were saying that racist southerners usually point the finger to the "others" to say that they're more educated than the rabble, and that they're the "good brazillians". Yeah, this happens and it's hilarious. I have a friend that moved from the midwest to a very small and insular city in the south and the bullshit she had to go through was insane. People were extremely wary of her in very weird and very racist ways, like not wanting their kids to play together with her kids. Also in college, the teachers would openly mention the southerner superiority and stuff like you mentioned, blaming the other regions for any bad stuff that happened in Brazil. Ironically enough, in the bank that she worked at, people would do all sorts of shady poo poo but wouldn't clue her into it because she wasn't "trustworthy" enough not to rat them out, since she wasn't one of them. So she was literally one of few people who wouldn't succumb to the "jeitinho" in the bank because she was not a southerner. She did the right thing, ratted everyone out and got fired for it.
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May 22, 2017 03:52
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joepinetree posted:It is simply the result of a society that is unequal by design seeing our murcan friends talking about the poo poo in their south and how loving much more massive our own slavery process is in comparison, I think everything "bad" here comes from that massive historical bullshit someone ran the numbers and they are loving ridiculous, Salvador and Rio de Janeiro were some of the biggest slave trade ports in the history of mankind with 20 times more people being dragged here than all of the US
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May 22, 2017 04:24
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I think I've said it before, but Faoro's "Os Donos do Poder" capture a lot of what we've been talking about.
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May 22, 2017 05:18
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I think the most ironic thing is that even though the "jeitinho brasileiro" is derided by our upper-middle class and above in front of polite company, those are the guys that love to abuse loopholes or "alternative solutions". Oh, of course pirated cable TV and bootleg clothing is a no-no because those are things the poors do, but they'll be the first to pay you off-the-books for a service, to park wherever because they're in a rush, to try and get away with a ticket by having someone else sign it so they don't eat points on their license... It's a cultural thing no doubt, people do it because they either think they "deserve it" or they think it's just how poo poo goes in Brazil. How all the blame is transferred to minorities or poorer regions of the country/state/city is a reflex of a very prejudiced and elitist society. You feel it very hard on southern Brazil too, people are weirdly proud of being European or "gaúcho", which is basically shorthand for "we don't relate to Brazil we're like our neighbours okay". Like, I think celebrating your roots is all fine and dandy, and RS has some unique cultural elements for sure, but there's this pervasive air of superiority when someone signs everything down with two German last names. When people say they're learning Italian and getting their citizenship because they've always felt so much more connected to that beautiful culture, y'know. Hell, I've heard racist remarks coming from extended family, to the tune of "you did that job like a blackie", and the only connection we have to Europe is through the Azores. In the USA, people would peg me for a Mexican way before they thought I was European.
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May 22, 2017 06:28
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So, what's the consensus, is the tape fake or not? I havne't been able to read the news today.
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May 24, 2017 03:37
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Conspiratiorist posted:That's just tax evasion (undeclared sales). Not Latin America, but there's a joint in one of the main Sri Lankan malls in the capital that is a pirated-DVD store. 
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May 24, 2017 03:40
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Mr. Nemo posted:So, what's the consensus, is the tape fake or not? I havne't been able to read the news today. Last i heard there are 6 minutes missing. The funniest hypothesis is that its 6 min of them both trash talking their wives
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May 24, 2017 12:35
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Mr. Nemo posted:So, what's the consensus, is the tape fake or not? I havne't been able to read the news today. depends on your definition of "fake", temer pretty much admitted he talked to the guy extraofficially late at the night and whatever the guy told him he had nothing to do with it temer is stupid
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May 24, 2017 14:32
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Mr. Nemo posted:So, what's the consensus, is the tape fake or not? I havne't been able to read the news today. It cant be "fake", and the president himself never contested the contents of what we heard. Instead, he confirmed it: that he did listen Joesley describing and commenting a long list of crimes, and did nothing. That's a crime on itself, and enough to kick him out of there
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May 24, 2017 14:36
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Elias_Maluco posted:It cant be "fake", and the president himself never contested the contents of what we heard. Instead, he confirmed it: that he did listen Joesley describing and commenting a long list of crimes, and did nothing. That's a crime on itself, and enough to kick him out of there Good. It does make me strangely satisfied to see the figurative massacre of the brazilian political class for some reason.
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May 24, 2017 15:01
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If the world makes it to the next Brazilian election in one piece, is there even someone who is not totally corrupt and/or a roght wing shotheel left to vote for?
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May 24, 2017 15:37
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No.
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May 24, 2017 16:04
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Do candidates ever try running on an anti-corruption platform?
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May 24, 2017 16:42
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Markovnikov posted:If the world makes it to the next Brazilian election in one piece, is there even someone who is not totally corrupt and/or a roght wing shotheel left to vote for? nope Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Do candidates ever try running on an anti-corruption platform? That's always at least part of the promises But the last president that really was elected on a anti-corruption platform got impeached... for corruption (Fernando Collor)
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May 24, 2017 16:56
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Do candidates ever try running on an anti-corruption platform? Yes, and the most strident on anti-corruption usually end up being corrupt themselves. Markovnikov posted:If the world makes it to the next Brazilian election in one piece, is there even someone who is not totally corrupt and/or a roght wing shotheel left to vote for? Ciro loving Gomes 
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May 24, 2017 17:55
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Question for the Brazilians based on a #HotTake I read the other day: do you think Brazil would be better off today if the Lava Jato stuff had never come out? Here is the hot take in question if you're interested: http://www.bloggingsbyboz.com/2017/05/what-are-costs-of-anti-corruption.html
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May 24, 2017 19:07
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On saturday, brazilian president andcorruption golem Michel Temer met with the heads of the armed forces. On monday, he basically flipped a middle finger at the 90% of the people who despise him and said he wouldn't quit. "If you want me gone, take me out." Today, during mass protests in the capital, the army was deployed for the first time against protesters. This bodes poorly. I understand that the army can't really pick and choose who it obeys, but still, this seems rash. So far, they preserved their image a lot by staying distant from the mudwrestling of politics in the last 4 years.. By visibly defending such a corrupt government, they start getting dirt on themselves.
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May 24, 2017 21:07
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http://zh.clicrbs.com.br/rs/opiniao/noticia/2017/05/calma-brasil-9799666.html gently caress YOU gently caress YOU gently caress YOU
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May 24, 2017 21:50
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bagual posted:Ciro loving Gomes The Gomes family is the ruling oligarchy here in my state and having to support him is one loving bitter pill for me and my family.
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May 24, 2017 22:36
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Badger of Basra posted:Question for the Brazilians based on a #HotTake I read the other day: do you think Brazil would be better off today if the Lava Jato stuff had never come out? It is too early to tell. Lava Jato has the potential to clean up a lot of Brazilian politics. It also has the potential to be a convenient excuse to criminalize PT and ram through unpopular reforms. If the outcome, 5 years from now, is more transparency in government, great. If, 5 years from now, the only legacy are the draconian reforms by an unelected government, and virtually no arrests outside of PT, then it was worse than a waste of time.
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May 24, 2017 22:54
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"B-but the market!", cried the market every single fuckin' time anything happens so they can cash in on whatever crisis happens. Lava-Jato is flawed, but this political instability was fueled by a ton of investors. Yeah, we'd probably be in less of a mess if everything was swept under the rug, but eventually someone would make a power play and make everyone cry again. "I'm concerned that we (as a group) may be underestimating the downside risks or the edge risks to the wave of anti-corruption efforts that we're supporting and promoting." As far as I'm concerned you can go gently caress yourself and shove the entire "acordão" up your rear end. Ah, I forgot what I came here to post. https://twitter.com/maria_lima/status/867504823733583872 Dias fucked around with this message at 23:41 on May 24, 2017 |
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May 24, 2017 23:35
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y'all stay safe loving hell
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May 24, 2017 23:45
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Why is Latin America so corrupt compared to the United States and Canada? Isn't it also composed of mostly European immigrants from the 19th and 20th centuries?
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May 25, 2017 00:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why is Latin America so corrupt compared to the United States and Canada? Isn't it also composed of mostly European immigrants from the 19th and 20th centuries? Why is that relevant? I'd say the USA is also a massively corrupt country, the corruption just happens to be legalized (get a nice cushy position with board seats, equity and lovely payoffs for passing favourable legislation for the industry that bought you when you leave office). The only thing is that they're generally not stupid/small time enough to take literal brown envelopes under the table.
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May 25, 2017 00:58
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