|
radmonger posted:This kind of stuff is why 'foreign policy causes terrorism' is simultaneously true, and also weasel-worded bullshit. So, correct me if I'm wrong, your theory amounts to "Throw our hands up because Islamic terrorism is just fated to happen, c'est la vie." (e): The Horten Ho 229 was a prototype fighter-bomber designed for the Luftwaffe until the fate of all fascists befell them.
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:28 |
|
|
Foreign policy's a factor but I reckon since all our recent terrorists are homegrown the problem might be rooted just as much in our domestic policy.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:Foreign policy's a factor but I reckon since all our recent terrorists are homegrown the problem might be rooted just as much in our domestic policy. It is probably both.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
foreign policy is definitely a factor. how many islamic extremist committed acts of terrror did the uk see before we invaded iraq and afghanistan ?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
spectralent posted:I'm presuming by "normal human being" you mean "modern briton who has never been to an actual, literal war zone, where friends and family have personally experienced being shelled"? ...is this what happened to the Manchester Arena bomber?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
also domestic terroism supports the aim of the ruling military and capitalist classes who want to perpetuate the never-ending war on terror.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:...is this what happened to the Manchester Arena bomber? I mean if he did visit Libya and his parents fled from there, probably?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:...is this what happened to the Manchester Arena bomber? Yes?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Things are getting bad. I think the government is over reacting badly. The UK has a historical antipathy to seeing armed soldiers in public, even soldiers wearing their uniforms off duty. Some people date this back to the Civil War. I have my doubts about that. I think it comes from the 19th century use of the army to keep the industrial Working Class under control. You can see this by the creation of barracks in all the industrial centres of the UK during this time. Peterloo was not a tragic accident- it was a lesson. They were still teaching that lesson at Orgreave, but at least they realised using the army was a step too far General China fucked around with this message at 21:33 on May 24, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:...is this what happened to the Manchester Arena bomber? He visited Libya, so yes.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:No it was one person. Jabby. He said sorry. Did he? I thought that was Pocochio.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Did he? I thought that was Pocochio. It was me, yes. The idea was really stupid (what I actually thought was "hmmm maybe the Saudis want to ensure a Tory win to keep getting arms deals") but at the time somehow it made sense, I tend to overreact to events like these
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:It was me, yes. The idea was really stupid (what I actually thought was "hmmm maybe the Saudis want to ensure a Tory win to keep getting arms deals") but at the time somehow it made sense, I tend to overreact to events like these Yes you apologised for suggesting it might be a Tory backed 'false flag' operation. I'm unsure if Jabby has apologised yet.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:34
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:No it was one person. Jabby. He said sorry. The nail/foot thing wasn't me, neither was the false flag comment. As for talking politics being 'distateful' knox-harrington, I find it distasteful that more than thirty refugees, many of them children, drowned or were shot trying to escape to Europe today. And guess what? Nobody gives a poo poo because they weren't white and they weren't British. Of course things hit closer to home when it happens in your country. But there is a reason we are encouraged to have paroxysms of grief over the death of one of 'our' children and feel complete indifference when it's one of 'theirs', and it's because it suits a political purpose. So no, when a deeply political act of violence happens we absolutely shouldn't shut up about politics because we're meant to be sad instead.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federationquote:Theresa May’s dramatic deployment of troops in the wake of the Manchester bombing has laid bare Tory police cuts, the leader of the Police Federation has declared. https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/867449988707741700
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:Yes, he's called Tony Blair. That was the joke, thanks.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
All this about police cuts being exposed is great, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it would have helped - didn't they deem him as a low risk? Would it have changed if they had more surveillance/intelligence people available? It's really drat hard to stop some determined guy going into a public building and detonating a suicide bomb, no matter how many police you have, so I guess the real failure here was risk assessment?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:All this about police cuts being exposed is great, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it would have helped - didn't they deem him as a low risk? Would it have changed if they had more surveillance/intelligence people available? It's really drat hard to stop some determined guy going into a public building and detonating a suicide bomb, no matter how many police you have, so I guess the real failure here was risk assessment? It probably wouldn't have helped much but it's an excuse to berate the tories about police cuts which is a good thing. Police can't stop unpredictable acts of individual violence but they are still important and part of making them work is funding them properly.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
To armchair psychologist for a bit, a domestic social system which alienates members to the periphery will always cause those members to search for alternative identities which give them a sense of belonging or meaning. This desire can be benign or incredibly harmful based on the particular circumstances; in this case Muslims from a north African or middle eastern background. Faced with isolation or outright discrimination from western society they search for meaning from their religion or non-European heritage and sadly either of those avenues is likely to bring them into contact with 'authentic' movements which call for violent terrorism against the West. Their argument is strengthened by taking these dejected individuals personal experiences and contrasting them with the Wests foreign activities, namely colonialism, invasion and support of dictatorships, to convince them that there is a clash of civilisations taking place and that either white/Western supremacy or islamic supremacy must triumph. Since they have already been rejected by the West they feel they must align themselves with the only other choice and in this situation of total war, potentially murder innocents and die in the process. This explains why these acts are usually fundamentalist converts from a European background (although their adherence to Islam is really just a random chance thing, they could easily become fascists instead) or second generation immigrants, who find themselves hearing about the place their parents came from but they themselves have no direct experiences of and so are not able to discern between what the every day person in those places actually believes or would act like if they were to move to Europe and what the extremists get them to think is appropriate.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
dispatch_async posted:No one just wakes up one day as a police man. They are recruited, taught and groomed from the poor, the sick the bullied and the desperate and yes sometimes the stupid and cruel
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:47
|
|
|
There a big difference between taking your children onto a boat to make a dangerous journey that you know many people have died doing before you, and taking your children to a chuffing pop concert.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
learnincurve posted:There a big difference between taking your children onto a boat to make a dangerous journey that you know many people have died doing before you, and taking your children to a chuffing pop concert. Well yes, you do the former because if you don't there seems a reasonable chance the British will bomb you.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:All this about police cuts being exposed is great, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it would have helped - didn't they deem him as a low risk? Would it have changed if they had more surveillance/intelligence people available? It's really drat hard to stop some determined guy going into a public building and detonating a suicide bomb, no matter how many police you have, so I guess the real failure here was risk assessment? A lot of the police cuts were to support staff, who'd be the ones performing things like risk assessments.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
Gyro Zeppeli posted:So, correct me if I'm wrong, your theory amounts to "Throw our hands up because Islamic terrorism is just fated to happen, c'est la vie." Nah all I am trying to say is if you are going to blame things on foreign policy, be specific. Say something that could be right, or could be wrong, depending on the facts. Or, if you don't know, say so.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
radmonger posted:Nah all I am trying to say is if you are going to blame things on foreign policy, be specific. bombing the gently caress out of the middle east for 15 years, destroying the leadership and infrastructure of at least 3 countries causing millions of deaths and millions more refugees. how's that for starters you stupid little idiot.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
radmonger posted:Nah all I am trying to say is if you are going to blame things on foreign policy, be specific. British interventionism in the middle east destabilizes the region and provides the parent organizations which recruit people to do things like this. British domestic policy disenfranchises and isolates people making them seek fulfillment in associating with said organizations while eroding whatever buy in they might otherwise have had to British society.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:All this about police cuts being exposed is great, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it would have helped - didn't they deem him as a low risk? Would it have changed if they had more surveillance/intelligence people available? It's really drat hard to stop some determined guy going into a public building and detonating a suicide bomb, no matter how many police you have, so I guess the real failure here was risk assessment? One or more of the 20,000 or so police staff sacked since 2010 might well have been of some help- like the anonymous cop linked above said, so much has been lost in behind the scenes roles. If the guy was already on the radar, it may sadly be a case where enough bits of the jigsaw were there to guess the picture was dodgy but there was no-one there to gather everything up and look. sassassin posted:Mentalists are always going to find excuses to blow something up. Kindly don't drop ableist comments, especially when a person suffering from mental illness is significantly less likely to be violent and far more likely to be a subject of violence, thanks in advance.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
Are we all agreed that we need more police officers?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Are we all agreed that we need more police officers? Better funded ones likely wouldn't hurt, you don't get people good at their jobs by overworking and underpaying them. And given that the police were invented to stop the government sending the army to massacre people I think they're quite important in practice even if they're bastards.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
learnincurve posted:There a big difference between taking your children onto a boat to make a dangerous journey that you know many people have died doing before you, and taking your children to a chuffing pop concert. The former certainly implies that you have led a far more difficult and unpleasant life up to that point, but I'm not getting why it makes their deaths significantly less tragic.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:bombing the gently caress out of the middle east for 15 years, destroying the leadership and infrastructure of at least 3 countries causing millions of deaths and millions more refugees. Hold on here. The RAF have a proud tradition of dropping bombs on Iraq going on a lot longer than 15 years. They were dropping bombs in exactly the same place 90 years ago. It did them good then and it's doing them good now. Or else why would they do it?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
I don't think the guy on the radio was so much saying that the foreign policy of invading the countries that some Muslim immigrants stem from causes radicalisation so much from the fact of the invasion itself. It's the alienation that results in British Muslims, an already badly stigmatised group, when their families, friends and heritage in that country are described in papers and in the news as the enemy, are dehumanised and their suffering and deaths minimised. You've just come back from visiting your nan abroad and suddenly your government is blithely bombing the city she lives in and designating the people they kill there, who you were chatting with last week, enemy combatants. The tabloids are gloating about our boys' glorious victories and printing breathless dating profiles on the weapons killing your family, while at the same time demonising your community at home in the UK, your religion, your family traditions, and to top it blaming you for the whole lot for not being "British" enough, never mind that you grew up in the Wirral and speak English at home in that horrible whining accent those unfortunates born on Merseyside all have. How connected with British Values, whatever they are this week, are you going to feel? Now clearly none of that justifies going out and murdering innocent people, which is likely why practically nobody does that. But I can certainly feel a certain empathy, and even sympathy, for young people who have been so rejected by the culture they are told it is their responsibility to integrate into that they seek a new identity and sense of belonging wherever they can find it.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Are we all agreed that we need more police officers? I think we need different police officers. The ones doing the job at the moment aren't that good.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:01
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Well yes, you do the former because if you don't there seems a reasonable chance the British will bomb you. It's Ok to feel empathy for the people who were effected by the bombing in Manchester. It was horrific and wrong and this does not get cancelled out by all of the other horrific and wrong things going on in the world today. 30,000 children are starving in Myanama camps because their own government is restricting the distribution of aid, we can feel sorry for them too.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
learnincurve posted:It's Ok to feel empathy for the people who were effected by the bombing in Manchester. It was horrific and wrong and this does not get cancelled out by all of the other horrific and wrong things going on in the world today. 30,000 children are starving in Myanama camps because their own government is restricting the distribution of aid, we can feel sorry for them too. The difference is that no-one berates you for not publicly displaying enough emotion about the children of Myanmar, or labels it 'distasteful' or 'disrespectful' if you want to discuss the potential political implications/solutions.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Better funded ones likely wouldn't hurt, you don't get people good at their jobs by overworking and underpaying them. And given that the police were invented to stop the government sending the army to massacre people I think they're quite important in practice even if they're bastards. Most front line police I see are PCSOs and I'd probably feel a bit better seeing more actual police than part-timers. The funding issue has always been a problem, and one of the myriad reasons other forces riot squads were sent to London during the riots was because The Met's numbers and kit were woefully inadequate and out of date. Course when my dad was grandfathered out on retirement from SO12, a forward thinking police service would have brought him back (at reduced salary) as a civilian support worker but no, take your pension and your twenty years experience and get the gently caress out
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:16
|
|
|
jabby posted:The difference is that no-one berates you for not publicly displaying enough emotion about the children of Myanmar, or labels it 'distasteful' or 'disrespectful' if you want to discuss the potential political implications/solutions. The Phillipines had a city captured by ISIS (or an ISIS-allied cell or whatever you want to call it) and so far this has been news to literally everyone I've told it to despite the fact that you'd think "ISIS captured a city a million miles away" would be rather surprising. Also if the middle east didn't have multiple massive power vacuums caused by the west invading it and then failing to rebuild it after then there wouldn't be places for organisations like ISIS to fill. Also not training tons of them before loving off would've also helped. This is directly related to the UK's foreign policy. That said it's equally dumb to think that nothing that happens to people domestically affects them either, but I suspect you'd have more people joining gangs than trying to blow people up if we hadn't left an "organisation that likes to blow people up" shaped hole in multiple societies a few decades prior. spectralent fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 24, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
spectralent posted:The Phillipines had a city captured by ISIS (or an ISIS-allied cell or whatever you want to call it) and so far this has been news to literally everyone I've told it to despite the fact that you'd think "ISIS captured a city a million miles away" would be rather surprising. Wait what how the hell did they get to the Philippines?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Wait what how the hell did they get to the Philippines? Air Force One
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:28 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Wait what how the hell did they get to the Philippines? It's not strictly ISIS
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2017 22:21
|
|