Spunky Psycho Ho posted:

Obama was drone striking children's concerts on purpose?

lol but seriously I posted:

Would a country actually take back a 2nd generation immigrant suspected of terrorism?

quote:

The father of Salman Abedi, the Manchester Arena suicide bomber, fought against the Gaddafi regime with a group that was designated a terrorist organisation by the US, according to a man who says he fought alongside him.

Salman Abedi, 22, who was known to the British security services, is thought to have returned from Libya as recently as this week. His parents, Ramadan Abedi and Samia Tabbal, who escaped the Gaddafi regime in the early 1990s and fled to the UK, now live in the Libyan city of Tripoli.

Their youngest son, Hashem, 20, is also believed to be with them in Libya – and on Wednesday both Hashem and Ramadan were said to have been arrested, reportedly by a local militia.

Salman Abedi was born in Manchester and grew up in a tight-knit Libyan community that was known for its strong opposition to Col Muammar Gaddafi’s regime.

His father fought against the Gaddafi regime during the Libyan revolution in 2011 with the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. The US state department says that elements of LIFG were aligned with Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida, and designated the group a foreign terrorist organisation in 2004.

Ramadan Abedi, a security officer, and his wife, Samia, were both born in Tripoli but appear to have emigrated to London before moving to south Manchester, where they had lived for at least a decade.

Akram Ramadan, 49, who fought with Ramadan Abedi in the Libyan revolution, said he was passionate about overthrowing a regime that had “displaced thousands of his brethren”.

“It was something we all felt we had to do. Some were more radical than others but we all shared a common cause,” he added.

Akram Ramadan, a mechanic, first met the Abedi family at the Manchester Islamic Centre also known as the Didsbury mosque – a Sunni moderate mosque – when they arrived in 1992. Ramadan Abedi was given a job at the mosque as a muezzin, to call out prayer five times a day.

“He was a normal, straightforward, likable guy. He would sometimes lead the prayer, too. He was obviously religious, but nothing out of the ordinary.”

The couple first moved to Fallowfield and then Whalley Range, and went on to have four children: Ismail, 23, Salman, 22, Hashem, 20 and a daughter, Jumana.

All the children were enlisted in British schools and the family were said to be settled, but in 2011 their lives changed dramatically when Ramadan Abedi decided to travel back to his north African homeland to fight in the first Libyan Civil War, also referred to as the Libyan revolution. The armed conflict between forces loyal to Gaddafi and those seeking to oust his government would last for eight months, but Ramadan Abedi was never to make his home in the UK again.

“I also fought in the war. We were in the same group over there – we called ourselves the Manchester Fighters – we even had our own logo. Three-quarters of the fighters at the beginning of the revolution were from Manchester – the rest came from London, Sheffield, China and Japan. From everywhere.

“Seeing lots of Libyans unite against one common enemy was a dream come true. It was also like a nightmare, but we were fighting for a common cause.”

Akram Ramadan, who was born in Manchester, fought in the conflict as his father was a political opponent of Gaddafi and had been ousted from the country. He remained in Libya fighting from July 2011 to August 2014 in the mountains and in Tripoli.

“I saw Ramadan in the mountains and later in Tripoli. We were all soldiers – we all bore arms. It was a war zone. Many of the people who fought in the conflict weren’t actually born in Libya, but they had this common cause of their families being prosecuted or being kicked out of the country by the regime.

“When I met Ramadan it was always at the forefront of his mind about how we were going to gain control of our country again. He was very passionate about the common cause and common good for Libya.”

During his time in Libya, Ramadan Abedi was also known to be part of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, which was also known as Muqatlla group.

“This group was fighting Gaddafi in the mid-90s in the eastern side of Libya. The group were defeated in 1996. It was a group that wanted to overthrow Gaddafi but they also possibly had some guys who were affiliated with al-Qaida. Did some of these guys carry the torch of al-Qaida? Possibly.”

Akram Ramadan said Ramadan Abedi only came back to the UK three months ago after leaving in 2011. He only remained in Britain for 10 days to sort out “paperwork” with his council property, and then returned to Libya. Three of his children, including Salman, remained in the UK to finish their studies.

Speaking before news of the arrests in Tripoli, Akram Ramadan said: “I suspect he will now be coming back to clear matters up with the police. He is the the type of person who does not like to leave things – he will want to sort things out.”

Akram Ramadan understands that Salman Abedi returned to Libya to see his parents and younger brother three months ago for a family wedding.

“It never crossed my mind that Salman would ever do anything like this. I believed him to have moderate views. I have spoken to Ismail’s father-in-law and he is in shock. The whole family are.”

Akram Ramadan said that most of the Libyan youth in Manchester felt “disbanded” and did not know where they belonged.

“They don’t belong to either society. They are neither Libyan nor British. They are not accepted anywhere. And Libyan society considers them half-breeds. They are not accepted, which leads to so much frustration and discontent.”

Fog Tripper posted:

Collateral damage of children being used as shields by coward terrorists, totally the same as intentionally targeting children at a concert with nail bombs.
Mmmmm, yes.

Nerses IV posted:

See, maybe I'd agree, but the omelet we've made with all these dead kids tastes pretty drat good to me.

Jeza posted:

The wonderful thing about belief systems is that people pick and choose what they wish to believe in. Much like how vast swathes of the Bible are now just ignored as metaphor or just plain ignored, the same is true in Islam. If anything, their system of religious texts is even more ambiguous and open to interpretation than Christianity, meaning people can interpret what they like to further their own goals.

While I don't give two tosses about Islamic beliefs, it's weird to characterise it as especially rotten. It just has the power and numbers to strike back against a Western hegemony, so it will. Push one way and the other side will swing back. More than 99% of Muslims seem to be totally compatible with a free and peaceful society to me.

Agag posted:

If someone drops a bomb on your house and kills your entire family while you are eating dinner, are you a coward who was hiding behind his children and using them as human shields?

spacetoaster posted:

A lot of that is just cosmetic. What actual doctrines are the same? Also, what books "overlap"? And beyond names, what characters are the same?

quote:

Islamic Text on the Golden Rule:
The Quran:
“Serve God, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess [the slave]: For God loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious” (Q:4:36)

(In fact the Quran goes beyond saying the Golden Rule by stating in more than four places that “Return evil with Kindness.” (13:22, 23:96, 41:34, 28:54, 42:40))

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):
“None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself” (Sahih
Muslim)

“Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and to enter Paradise”¦should treat the people as he wishes to be treated.” (Sahih Muslim)

“None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself”(Forty Hadith-Nawawi)

“None of you is a believer if he eats his full while his neighbour hasn’t anything.” (Musnad)

“Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.” (Abu Dawud)

“Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.” (Farewell Sermon)

“There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm.” (Ibn- Majah)

revmoo posted:

This is also completely wrong. First, Muslims believe the Quran is the direct, unfiltered word of god, verbatim. There is no parallel to Christianity here. Second, those 99% believe some pretty horrific things, like the death penalty for apostasy. Don't confuse their silence with peaceful intent.

spacetoaster posted:

What are they eating? This is important.

revmoo posted:

This is also completely wrong. First, Muslims believe the Quran is the direct, unfiltered word of god, verbatim. There is no parallel to Christianity here. Second, those 99% believe some pretty horrific things, like the death penalty for apostasy. Don't confuse their silence with peaceful intent.

Jeza posted:

A lot of religion is cosmetic. They are both Abrahamic religions, meaning they have essentially the same God, and overall their teachings on how to live a good life and so on are very similar.

I'm not invested enough in religion or Islam to run through the ins and outs, but you can do some homework if you're genuinely interested. In the most shallow vein, here are Islamic versions of the ten commandments in their suras:

revmoo posted:

This is also completely wrong. First, Muslims believe the Quran is the direct, unfiltered word of god, verbatim. There is no parallel to Christianity here. Second, those 99% believe some pretty horrific things, like the death penalty for apostasy. Don't confuse their silence with peaceful intent.

spacetoaster posted:

Then don't spout bullshit that you don't even know is true. It makes you look stupider than we all know you are.

Agag posted:

Hummus. BUT! Its Israeli hummus.

Bob Wins posted:

Aww poo poo its Bombing two: Electric Boogaloo

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/asia/jakarta-indonesia-explosion/index.html

Snatch Duster posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAoXgZLRee0&t=5s

Jeza posted:

Thankfully Christianity is now a powerless hollow shell. I wish it was the same for Islam but sadly it's not. Doesn't mean I don't stop recognising for one second that Christianity has an equally abhorrent and blood-stained past when given enough power to wield it in its own interests.

revmoo posted:

We aren't here to discuss Christianity's past. We are discussing the problems with Islam's present. It's quite striking that the only way you folks can try and defend this faulty belief system in the present is by comparing it with actikns by others in the past.

Fog Tripper posted:

Examples you can provide of this happening?

Snatch Duster posted:

~*religion of peace*~

Nothing can be done.

Snatch Duster posted:

Nothing can be done.

lol but seriously I posted:

Would a country actually take back a 2nd generation immigrant suspected of terrorism?

Snatch Duster posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAoXgZLRee0&t=5s

lol but seriously I posted:

What would you do?

revmoo posted:

Step 1 to solving Islamic extremist violence: acknowledge that there is a problem. <--- We haven't made it to this step yet

revmoo posted:

We aren't here to discuss Christianity's past. We are discussing the problems with Islam's present. It's quite striking that the only way you folks can try and defend this faulty belief system in the present is by comparing it with actions by others in the past.

revmoo posted:

Snatch Duster posted:

A bunch of Globalist and Defeatist in this thread. If you all aren't aware, I believe in kicking out all white and black people from the North American continent, and then not allowing immigration to the reconquered first nations of NA.

My ancestors made a mistake by not killing every pilgrim, explorer, and colonizer 500 years ago. Aztlan will rise again!

Snatch Duster posted:

My ancestors made a mistake by not killing every pilgrim, explorer, and colonizer 500 years ago.

XxXCaptainNoxXxX posted:

could they stop us?

Piss de Bundy posted:

your "nation" was ground into dust and you have nothing left but casinoes and reservations. you lost that a long time ago. its 2017 and you're the losers.

Piss de Bundy posted:

your "nation" was ground into dust and you have nothing left but casinoes and reservations. you lost that a long time ago. its 2017 and you're the losers.

lol but seriously I posted:

What would you do if they refuse to take them?

Snatch Duster posted:

My ancestors made a mistake by not killing every pilgrim, explorer, and colonizer 500 years ago. Aztlan will rise again!

Helical Nightmares posted:

What Australia does with refugees.

spacetoaster posted:

Wait, you're claiming to now be part of the tribes that were in New England?

Snatch Duster posted:

Native Americans own more guns per capita than any other demographic in the US.

spacetoaster posted:

Wait, you're claiming to now be part of the tribes that were in New England?