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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:the marketplace of ideas has resulted in enormous growth in LGBT acceptance and support for LGBT rights over the past two decades. a sea change in the psychiatric and medical perspective on queerness (often at severe professional risk for the doctors who opened that door), the coming out of a bunch of famous and culturally influential people, and the increasing diversity of american academia coupled with increased levels of general educational attainment and declining levels of religiosity have resulted in enormous growth in lgbt acceptance and support for lgbt rights, not deliberately giving podiums to homophobes I guess you have to define what you mean by "marketplace of ideas"
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May 26, 2017 01:20
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there wasn't a choice whether or not to give homophobes a podium. in the u.s. at least they had them every sunday in churches in every town in the country
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May 26, 2017 01:26
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wizard on a water slide posted:a sea change in the psychiatric and medical perspective on queerness (often at severe professional risk for the doctors who opened that door), the coming out of a bunch of famous and culturally influential people, and the increasing diversity of american academia coupled with increased levels of general educational attainment and declining levels of religiosity have resulted in enormous growth in lgbt acceptance and support for lgbt rights, not deliberately giving podiums to homophobes do you think that all of that stuff involving the free exchange of ideas doesn't count somehow? OK, if your conception of the marketplace of ideas just means College Republicans inviting shitheads to campuses, then yeah I agree it's bad.
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May 26, 2017 01:30
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:the marketplace of ideas has resulted in enormous growth in LGBT acceptance and support for LGBT rights over the past two decades. It could also just as easily decide otherwise. Just like we didn't really care as much about the scourge of Islam before 9/11. That's why we should enshrine and bake in these protections rather than just kinda shrug and let people debate out who counts as a human or not. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i'm gay and grew up in a very socially conservative environment in a southern state where it was technically illegal to be gay Yeah, but that doesn't address being okay with giving a platform to a dude to specifically out people to endanger them. Yes a society where the otherized has to hide benefits the oppressor, but that doesn't give you the right to say some kid in a lovely area has to take one for the greater good.
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May 26, 2017 01:46
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Coolness Averted posted:Yeah, but that doesn't address being okay with giving a platform to a dude to specifically out people to endanger them. Yes a society where the otherized has to hide benefits the oppressor, but that doesn't give you the right to say some kid in a lovely area has to take one for the greater good. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 02:13 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 02:08
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I don't know if Milo planned to specifically out people. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-a7561321.html https://www.thecut.com/2016/12/milo-yiannopoulos-harassed-a-trans-student-at-uw-milwaukee.html here friend
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May 26, 2017 02:14
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surprised this hasnt been posted yet. far cry 5 gets announced tomorrow, it takes place in Montana and the bad guys are a white supremacist christian identity hard right cult.  the alt right is of course pissed and screaming and bitching. as are some dumber liberals(no surprises there unfortunatly) but i liked the last 3 enough and Ubi letting you shoot right wing nutjobs sounds fun.
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May 26, 2017 02:15
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Actual rural cultists dont look like hipsters
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May 26, 2017 02:24
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sneakyfrog posted:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-a7561321.html
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May 26, 2017 02:25
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:that's what i was saying. his opponents alleged he was going to do it, milo denied he was going to do it. alleging that someone is going to say something that will lead to imminent lawful harm and then shutting him before he says the thing you're alleging he's going to say (which he denies) seems pre-crimey. I thought we were talking about outing closeted gay folks. The article says illegal immigrants.
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May 26, 2017 02:29
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:that's what i was saying. his opponents alleged he was going to do it, milo denied he was going to do it. alleging that someone is going to say something that will lead to imminent lawful harm and then shutting him before he says the thing you're alleging he's going to say (which he denies) seems pre-crimey. putting a trans person on a monitor and using them as an object of mockery friend is not pre crime, its a lack of respect for basic personhood.
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May 26, 2017 02:29
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spacetoaster posted:I thought we were talking about outing closeted gay folks. The article says illegal immigrants.
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May 26, 2017 02:36
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the supporters for shutting milo down in berkeley alleged he would out illegal immigrants. he denied it. would he have? i dunno. (how would they know?) is the allegation enough to shut him down? i don't think so. How would anyone even know immigration status (unless someone was blabbing on tweeter about it). Also, the punishment for a public person like Milo mistakenly calling someone out would be pretty steep (as in a libel lawsuit or slander under criminal code). Which would probably affect HIS status as a person who is allowed in the US.
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May 26, 2017 02:42
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spacetoaster posted:How would anyone even know immigration status (unless someone was blabbing on tweeter about it). Also, the punishment for a public person like Milo mistakenly calling someone out would be pretty steep (as in a libel lawsuit or slander under criminal code). Which would probably affect HIS status as a person who is allowed in the US. If anyone should be afraid of him it's the parents of his "interns"
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May 26, 2017 02:47
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Darkman Fanpage posted:keep spacetoaster out of this thread please.
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May 26, 2017 02:50
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Uncle Wemus posted:Actual rural cultists dont look like hipsters I mean this is the alt-right thread the entire deal is that the thing has made strange bedfellows of christian militia hicks, unmedicated conspiracy theorists, far-right academics, goofy internet chuds, millennial college republicans, and cynical narcissists who just want to be famous, which is also why there's so much infighting there's plenty of dudes in there with a hipster aesthetic (mostly bc beards and flannel are a "reclaiming your masculinity" thing for cosmopolitan conservatives)
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May 26, 2017 02:57
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Letting fascists speak freely only seems acceptable when it's not you they're talking about
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May 26, 2017 03:09
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wizard on a water slide posted:I mean this is the alt-right thread
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May 26, 2017 03:17
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:It just doesn't add up. As far as Milo's bigotry, yeah he's a nasty troll and a bigot, but a traveling hate preacher would come through my college campus and the students just treated him like a joke, which is what Milo would be if people stopped being afraid of him. And I think people are coming around to that point of view. uc berkeley gets hate preachers all the time, the issue with this one was that the College Republicans were like "Milo is good for discourse!" and everyone that's every heard milo talk was like nah man no. lets not have him here. so they cried free speech and then he came around and someone lit a lamp on fire.
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May 26, 2017 03:17
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I mean, that's the part of peoples' aggrieved defenses of Milo's free speech that I don't get - is the only standard for who should be given a platform and a sanctioned space to talk at a university "a small minority of students want them there"? Even if the reason those students want them there is because they expect him to hurt a lot of peoples' feelings and they think that's funny? Like even as a right-wing guy... Milo doesn't have academic credentials or intellectual chops, he doesn't have the special insight into institutions you might have from a career in (for ex) politics or policing, even a lot of people who agree with his basic ideology think he's a dancing clown. He's basically a bigoted stand-up comic. Who the gently caress cares if he doesn't get to put on a show? Why would someone who didn't agree with him think anything of value was being lost?
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May 26, 2017 03:29
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Montasque posted:
lol literally storm saxon
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May 26, 2017 03:37
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wizard on a water slide posted:I mean, that's the part of peoples' aggrieved defenses of Milo's free speech that I don't get - is the only standard for who should be given a platform and a sanctioned space to talk at a university "a small minority of students want them there"? Even if the reason those students want them there is because they expect him to hurt a lot of peoples' feelings and they think that's funny? Yeah if a student club can front the security fee they can basically invite whoever the gently caress they want and UC isn't legally allowed to contest it/block the invite, unless public safety is actually at risk. So in this case it'd have to be legally defensible evidence that Yiannopolous was gonna target specific students like he did at UW Milwaukee.
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May 26, 2017 03:41
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tbqh nobody listens to the street preachers hate because they have no charisma and just look like a borderline schizophrenic ranting
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May 26, 2017 03:52
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Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that rumor that Milo was going to out an illegal or whatever, was something that was spread by Milo himself. Think about it, logically. If he had that info in the first place, how would stopping him speak at Berkeley prevent that information getting out? He'd just post it on the internet or whatever. Or call up ICE. He has no reason to just sit on it, and there's nothing special about Berkeley that means its anything special if done there. In which case, the counter response was something Milo himself anticipated for, and planned a response to. Which means he just played antifa for fools. He was bluffing purely to get a response, nothing more.
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May 26, 2017 04:30
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Moreover, how exactly would antifa have discovered that information by themselves? Have they organized an intelligence operation, to gather that? Unlikely, that would imply some central organizational, which anarchists naturally have a phobia of. So where did it come from? More likely, Milo has people inside, or at least one vector to spread misinformation. Maybe a fake message board account or something. Which ironically means he's taking this whole thing more seriously than antifa is.
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May 26, 2017 04:35
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Yeah! And this whole thing where he literally endorsed pedophilia only for it to come back up right as he was getting big, seems fishy. He probably played us all on that one too!
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May 26, 2017 04:40
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Which I guess shouldn't surprise anyone, since he doesn't have to work for a living. He has a sugar daddy to cover for that, meaning that this is his job. That also puts a new spin on his 'troll academy'. That name is just a fake label, it's got nothing to do with trolling. Its a bog standard psy-ops/disinformation group that he's given a internet culture whitewash. That would also explain why he has 'come back from the dead'. His sugar daddies would need a compelling reason to keep giving money to a pedo apologist, and 'he runs a propaganda machine' is probably a mitigating factor here.
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May 26, 2017 04:42
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Coolness Averted posted:Yeah! And this whole thing where he literally endorsed pedophilia only for it to come back up right as he was getting big, seems fishy. He probably played us all on that one too!
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May 26, 2017 04:44
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rudatron posted:I think that was a genuine setback for him, but remember - he's still getting money from somewhere, in spite of being outed. Why? Who would keep giving him money, and for what reason? BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 05:01 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 04:52
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rudatron posted:Which I guess shouldn't surprise anyone, since he doesn't have to work for a living. He has a sugar daddy to cover for that, meaning that this is his job. This is the key point that liberals don't really get, which is the market orientation of a "marketplace of ideas." If there's enough money behind something, it's always going to stick around no matter how unpopular or toxic it is. The only reason liberalism is even the hegemonic ideology right now is because it's the bourgeois ideology, and they've got all the money. And within that class there's always going to be a few fascists or religious nuts who are willing to spend millions of dollars on libertarian think tanks, or Family Values PACs, or shithead outrage mongers. Anything that could give their stupid rear end ideas an air of legitimacy in the public mindset.
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May 26, 2017 06:10
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That model doesn't really get you where you want to go, though. It explains the persistence of some shoddy intellectual products on the market, but it doesn't provide you any excuse for why nobody wants to buy what you're selling. Linux on the desktop has broader appeal than you guys.
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May 26, 2017 06:24
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:That model doesn't really get you where you want to go, though. It explains the persistence of some shoddy intellectual products on the market, but it doesn't provide you any excuse for why nobody wants to buy what you're selling. Linux on the desktop has broader appeal than you guys. But my argument was literally "The marketplace of ideas is a lovely model for deciding basic rights and who lives or dies," I don't think "If your ideas are so good, why aren't they catching on in the market place of ideas, hmm?" really refutes that. If anything you've proven my point- BY YOUR OWN LOGIC!!!!!
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May 26, 2017 07:05
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this owns if true
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May 26, 2017 07:10
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Coolness Averted posted:But my argument was literally "The marketplace of ideas is a lovely model for deciding basic rights and who lives or dies," I don't think "If your ideas are so good, why aren't they catching on in the market place of ideas, hmm?" really refutes that. If anything you've proven my point- ...what?
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May 26, 2017 07:16
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rudatron posted:Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that rumor that Milo was going to out an illegal or whatever, was something that was spread by Milo himself. I thought it was the result of a game of telephone. It begun as 'Milo takes stories involving trans and immigrants from the student paper, and mocks them'. Then it evolved to 'further publicity of these published stories is equivalent to doxxing/outing', to 'Milo is planning to doxx/out people at his event'. It's just your standard social media distortion.
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May 26, 2017 07:46
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:...what? It's a chapo thing, one of the host's twittter handle @byyourownlogic makes fun of how many dumb internet folks think any sort of "If you extend your logic.." argument ever convinces anyone, and are always smug about it. That's also while you'll see ironic quoting of fallacies in c-spam.
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May 26, 2017 08:05
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man, I better catch up on my memes or they'll deport me back to d&d.
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May 26, 2017 08:50
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It's not even really a meme.
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May 26, 2017 08:54
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:That model doesn't really get you where you want to go, though. It explains the persistence of some shoddy intellectual products on the market, but it doesn't provide you any excuse for why nobody wants to buy what you're selling. Linux on the desktop has broader appeal than you guys. Therefore, the free market isn't free of ideology coercion, in fact, its a general accepted part of its functioning. But since this coercion is in proportion to property ownership, its not challenged or questioned. A media landscape dictated by a small number of media conglomerates is effectively equivalent to a totalitarian control of the press, by any metric you care to use. Yet we keep pretending that they're totally separate things. I wonder if that has something to do with the dominant ideology being market fundamentalism 
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May 26, 2017 09:10
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I'd look at some of his hangers-on like Ali Akbar, who showed up at his party and works in fleecing PAC donors for a variety of for-profit spam generators. The $12 million Milo cited is a ridiculous number and I don't believe it for a second. The entire Breitbart company would be worth that much.
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May 26, 2017 09:16
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