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Charliegrs posted:Well I wasn't the one that used that word. But I think for those out there that treasure their 2nd amendment rights they do in fact feel persecuted by an entire political party. A policy of specifically pursuing the stupidest voters in the country is a great way to cause the party to fracture. What you're suggesting is stupid as poo poo.
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May 26, 2017 07:59
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Charliegrs posted:But I think for those out there that treasure their 2nd amendment rights they do in fact feel persecuted by an entire political party. Can we agree though that as a matter of actual fact, they are not persecuted, regardless of their loving stupid feelings on the matter?
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May 26, 2017 07:59
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Democrats won't be able to win white voters unless they are willing to embrace settler colonial talking points the same way Trumps' GOP has. Sorry liberals, whites vote their racial interest first and economic interests second.
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May 26, 2017 07:59
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Charliegrs posted:Well I wasn't the one that used that word. But I think for those out there that treasure their 2nd amendment rights they do in fact feel persecuted by an entire political party. Sorry dude, but you don't get to answer a question with a decisive answer and then say "Well but I didn't agree with the question, REALLY." Don't be a dumb.
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May 26, 2017 08:01
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BardoTheConsumer posted:This. The republican mind is diseased and can't change. The democrats lost the messaging war a long time ago in a galaxy far far away and we are never, ever going to see a democrat majority again. Vote as hard as you can and do as many droves as you can to try to staunch the bleeding so maybe your children inherit a planet even if their children absolutely wont. that is all you can do. We'll see a Democratic majority, but it's not going to be because they start scheduling photo ops with the head of the NRA.
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May 26, 2017 08:01
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If we're going down this loving rabbit hole, then the very loving least you can do is allow our public health and medical research institutions study gun deaths as a public health issue. You can't solve a problem unless you're measuring it.
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May 26, 2017 08:05
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Baronash posted:We'll see a Democratic majority, but it's not going to be because they start scheduling photo ops with the head of the NRA. No, we wont. You're right that sucking up to 2nd amendmenters won't help, but that's because the mind of a republican cannot be changed. They worship conservatism as a god and deplore everything their masters tell them is liberal. There is no victory, just a slower defeat. And since we're dying on a hill anyway there's no reason to shift right.
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May 26, 2017 08:05
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Solkanar512 posted:If we're going down this loving rabbit hole, then the very loving least you can do is allow our public health and medical research institutions study gun deaths as a public health issue. You can't solve a problem unless you're measuring it. It's almost like republicans intentionally did that so that they can keep just yelling poo poo because there are no facts or data to be had on the subject so they can always be "right". BardoTheConsumer posted:No, we wont. You're right that sucking up to 2nd amendmenters won't help, but that's because the mind of a republican cannot be changed. They worship conservatism as a god and deplore everything their masters tell them is liberal. There is no victory, just a slower defeat. And since we're dying on a hill anyway there's no reason to shift right. I mean, it's way more fun to portray them like this because it feels like it's a warhammer fight when you do, but it's not true.
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May 26, 2017 08:08
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:
I mean... it is fun to think of it that way but it feels pretty damned true. It really is the last Stand of Rationalism against superstition, theocracy, and authoritarianism. It is the end of the Enlightenment not just here, but everywhere. And it's looking a lot like rationalism can't carry. So yeah. It's pretty much warhammer, only instead of metal as hell in addition to being tragic it's just tragic.
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May 26, 2017 08:12
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Well I don't know how you folks think Dems are going to win. Having the Northeast and west coast is obviously not enough. Remember, there's a small amount of voters out there that actually decide these elections. A small change might be all it takes. And if you have to give up something what's it going to be? Labor rights Reproductive Rights Civil rights Lgbtq rights Proper business regulations Healthcare for all Expanding education Gun control Of all those, gun control really seems like the most painless one to drop imo.
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May 26, 2017 08:18
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Charliegrs posted:Well I don't know how you folks think Dems are going to win. Having the Northeast and west coast is obviously not enough. Remember, there's a small amount of voters out there that actually decide these elections. A small change might be all it takes. And if you have to give up something what's it going to be? This was pretty much what I was getting at. As for being compared to other countries in respect to gun rights, we're Americans. Other countries are places we bomb. Otherwise we don't care about them. Even if we're bombing them we probably don't care about them.
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May 26, 2017 08:23
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You know if you watch this clip and then the shoving one it starts to look like they may be the same symptom. I think maybe Trump forgot where he was for a moment or who he was with and shoved to the front of the crowd. He saw the reporters and instinctively tried to look serious. He did the same thing here, wandering off aimlessly. He is at the end of a long and demanding foreign trip, if he is just starting down this road then the trip could have made his symptoms worse.
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May 26, 2017 08:24
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The next Dem should nationalize The Gunz and give everyone a gun and some bullets*. *They should give whites a gun and one bullet.
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May 26, 2017 08:28
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PhazonLink posted:The next Dem should nationalize The Gunz and give everyone a gun and some bullets*. They'd just kill a minority and take their bullet.
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May 26, 2017 08:30
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BardoTheConsumer posted:I mean... it is fun to think of it that way but it feels pretty damned true. It really is the last Stand of Rationalism against superstition, theocracy, and authoritarianism. It is the end of the Enlightenment not just here, but everywhere. And it's looking a lot like rationalism can't carry. So yeah. It's pretty much warhammer, only instead of metal as hell in addition to being tragic it's just tragic. Yeah, gonna need a citation on this. Show me where it is in the data that you're not making poo poo up out of fear and anger. Charliegrs posted:Of all those, gun control really seems like the most painless one to drop imo. Democrats already have been, what the gently caress are you on about? If your point is that in the minds of these people demonrats want to take their guns, sure, but there's not a drat loving thing democrats can do to change those peoples' minds because those people don't listen to democrats. The calls have already shifted from gun control to mental health.
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May 26, 2017 08:31
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Charliegrs posted:Well I don't know how you folks think Dems are going to win. Having the Northeast and west coast is obviously not enough. Remember, there's a small amount of voters out there that actually decide these elections. A small change might be all it takes. And if you have to give up something what's it going to be? Yeah that's fine and all, go all pro-gun I don't really care about the issue, things like health care are a far greater threat to American lives than our daily mass shootings. I doubt it will work, because "mah guns" is mainly a security blanket for fragile whites frightened of integration, and those people won't vote D as long as there's a civil rights plank in the platform but whatever worth a shot I guess. Gunhumpers are pretty dumb so maybe there's some at the margins who don't know what gun culture is all about.
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May 26, 2017 08:34
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D-Pad posted:You know if you watch this clip and then the shoving one it starts to look like they may be the same symptom. I think maybe Trump forgot where he was for a moment or who he was with and shoved to the front of the crowd. He saw the reporters and instinctively tried to look serious. Also, consider the fact that his personality requires him to always be in control and on top of the situation. If he found himself confused about where he was, he'd probably not be inclined to verbalize it, but instead would try to play it off. This might explain why he shoved himself to the front of the group, and why he stepped away here with a look of contemplation on his face.
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May 26, 2017 08:35
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Yeah, gonna need a citation on this. Show me where it is in the data that you're not making poo poo up out of fear and anger. Cant, cause I'm still holding out hope that I am making poo poo up out of fear and anger.
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May 26, 2017 08:36
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Baronash posted:We'll see a Democratic majority Realistically its races like the one they just lost in Montana that the Dems have to be winning in order for a super majority, or probably even "only" a majority, in the House/Senate to be assured in 2018. If they can't win control of both houses of Congress by a large enough majority to overrule vetos from either Trump or Pence and beat the filibusters then the best you can hope for is they win control of one house to gum up things some until 2020*. Which while technically better than the current political situation its a pretty drat crappy situation to hope for or be positive about. Unfortunately its looking more and more to me like it'd take something unbelievably huge to shift voters enough to make that happen. Like the current AHCA would have to get passed and actually start to negatively effect voters before 2018 voting beings, or a video surfaces showing Trump taking money from the Russians, etc. If the Dems very publicly began to not only back away from regulating guns but also were willing to pass some laws that many gun owners would like to see (ie. no more NFA stamp required for suppressors, short barrel shotguns/rifles, re-open machine gun registry, etc + require some sort of license to own/operate them that was cheap and easier to get, say on par with a driver's license) then that could maybe peel off a bunch of single issue voters from the Repub block. Or at least discourage them from voting Repub. Personally if they passed pro-gun laws while also passing say Medicare-For-All and/or funding better mental health programs I'd be fine with it and I think many Dems would be willing to let that trade off happen. That might not be a popular idea here, since I know many here hate guns with a passion, but that sort of political horse trading might just be what needs to happen to get anything major done. *if you want to really fix the gerrymandering situation in that time frame you'll probably still need the Dems to get wins in +15-20R regions anyways. edit: kartikeya posted:Also lol, persecution. The only time in recent memory I heard about a legitimately persecuted gun owner it was some poor black dude who got shot in his car by a jumpy cop for legally carrying (and informing the cop because he didn't want to get killed). PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 08:48 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 08:36
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It's a personal pet peeve, but I gotta push back a little on the 'mental illness treatment as a means to prevent gun violence' thing. There's an assumption that spree killers and the like are just automatically mentally ill, because surely no sane person would do that, but the truth of the matter is that most spree killers aren't diagnosed, and a lot of what we can glean from the ashes of their rampages (which often end in them being dead too), points just as much if not more to certain societal problems (hyper-masculinity, a culture that glorifies violence and constantly presents it as a means to solve problems, the absolutely creepy literal worship of killing machines, etc) as it does to actual mental illness. That's not to say that spree killers don't have some sort of something that could be diagnosed, and certainly, they probably would have benefited from a much, much more robust dedication to providing mental healthcare in this country, but it's dangerous and downright aggravating to just chalk it all up to 'well they're crazy, duh'. Which is also why I get irritable whenever people start talking about mental illness registries to prevent gun ownership, quite apart from all the ethical and self reporting problems that kind of thing would cause. It's not that certain folks absolutely should not have access to firearms--I've got bipolar 2, I count myself among that number--it's that it's making a scapegoat out of a group of people with very diverse problems and needs that are constantly demonized in media but in reality are far far far faaaar more likely to be the victims of gun violence (and violence in general) than the perpetrators. Mental healthcare is by and large abysmal because our healthcare system in general is a piece of poo poo and mental health is an afterthought in it at best, but there's also a huge problem of people who do have legit but undiagnosed (or diagnosed but untreated) mental health issues, and may even have access to treatment, but who refuse to seek help because they're terrified in one way or another of being thought of as some dangerous psycho who needs to be locked away, or, because we seem incapable as a society of comprehending there's anything in-between, as someone who is just making up their problems for attention and who therefore won't be taken seriously anyway. Which is a lot of words to respond to one offhand remark, but welp. I get very tired of mental health being the easy scapegoat that gets trotted out by politicians whenever gun violence is discussed, and left there just long enough for everyone to get bored and then yanked away without even doing anything about it. Also lol, persecution. The only time in recent memory I heard about a legitimately persecuted gun owner it was some poor black dude who got shot in his car by a jumpy cop for legally carrying (and informing the cop because he didn't want to get killed).
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May 26, 2017 08:38
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BardoTheConsumer posted:I mean... it is fun to think of it that way but it feels pretty damned true. It really is the last Stand of Rationalism against superstition, theocracy, and authoritarianism. It is the end of the Enlightenment not just here, but everywhere. And it's looking a lot like rationalism can't carry. So yeah. It's pretty much warhammer, only instead of metal as hell in addition to being tragic it's just tragic. It's not that at all, my dude. Things are lovely, but we're not anywhere close to the "civilization's last stand" point yet. Don't be melodramatic.
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May 26, 2017 08:38
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BardoTheConsumer posted:Cant, cause I'm still holding out hope that I am making poo poo up out of fear and anger. You are. Take a break from politics like that one goon who's gonna have a bbq with friends this weekend. I know I am.
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May 26, 2017 08:42
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Yeah, quist was always the long shot. Breathe guys. It's not the end of the world. He won by far less than Zinke. The travel ban was blocked. Kushner is under FBI investigation. A special counsel was appointed. Things are happening. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 08:45 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 08:42
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Republicans would not care if Trump was caught on camera taking money from Russia. Russia is the ideal model of what they want America to be: a backwards theocratic dictatorship with no dissent or criticism allowed, where journalists are murdered for expressing liberal opinions or exposing the crimes of the regime, pogroms against minorities are the order of the day, and a small cabal of ultrarich oligarchs rule over the despairing, hopeless, drug-addicted masses, and every single Republican voter knows he will be one of the oligarchs if the DC liberals weren't keeping him down.
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May 26, 2017 08:42
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VitalSigns posted:Republicans would not care if Trump was caught on camera taking money from Russia. Russia is the ideal model of what they want America to be: a backwards theocratic dictatorship with no dissent or criticism allowed, where journalists are murdered for expressing liberal opinions or exposing the crimes of the regime, pogroms against minorities are the order of the day, and a small cabal of ultrarich oligarchs rule over the despairing, hopeless, drug-addicted masses, and every single Republican voter knows he will be one of the oligarchs if the DC liberals weren't keeping him down. Republican politicians would not care, that's correct. The issue isn't that. The issue is that they've created a seemingly indestructible media bubble around enough of their audience that they can get away with it. Things start mattering when stuff happening like Trump taking money directly from russians with irrefutable proof comes out and manages to puncture that bubble. Either that or we don't have a choice and have to watch them take healthcare away and quite literally murder their own base like it's jonestown. Is it accelerationist if you can't stop it?
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May 26, 2017 08:52
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VitalSigns posted:Republicans would not care if Trump was caught on camera taking money from Russia. Russia is the ideal model of what they want America to be: a backwards theocratic dictatorship with no dissent or criticism allowed, where journalists are murdered for expressing liberal opinions or exposing the crimes of the regime, pogroms against minorities are the order of the day, and a small cabal of ultrarich oligarchs rule over the despairing, hopeless, drug-addicted masses, and every single Republican voter knows he will be one of the oligarchs if the DC liberals weren't keeping him down. Not to quibble too much, but I wouldn't describe Russia as particularly theocratic. The ROC has plenty of power, sure, but in the end, it's Putin who calls the shots, not the Patriarch. The rest of your comparison is pretty apt, though, imo.
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May 26, 2017 08:52
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Yeah I absolutely agree with this. While there are some clearly mentally-ill spree killers, like Jared Loughner or Adam Lanza, a lot of them have more in common with those who join terrorist groups. Was Timothy McVeigh mentally ill? It's hard to say, and if he was, he had a very finely-tuned kind of illness, and many of these killers are able to function quite normally in society while planning for months or years in advance leading up to their violent act. In many cases it's a form of self-radicalization into a cult-like mindset in which the perpetrator sees themselves as engaging in redemptive violence to correct wrongs afflicted against them, their religion, race, etc. Was David Koresh crazy? He had extreme beliefs, but that's a societal judgement. It's difficult to explain this though because of course they're crazy, which makes me sound like I'm saying committing mass murder "isn't crazy." With someone like the Charleston shooter, obviously what he did was evil, but it was also logical from the perspective of a white supremacist. Are white supremacists "crazy"? Or the Nazis? Or members of ISIS? Many mass murderers in history have been otherwise rational people -- and that's what should really freak people out. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 08:57 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 08:53
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There's plenty there. "When will they shut up? Not one word about me or how great I am. I want to get home and have a burnt steak with ketchup. Ivanka looked pretty hot, I wonder if I'll ever get to gently caress her"
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May 26, 2017 08:59
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Yeah I absolutely agree with this. While there are some clearly mentally-ill spree killers, like Jared Loughner or Adam Lanza, a lot of them have more in common with those who join terrorist groups. Was Timothy McVeigh mentally ill? It's hard to say, and if he was, he had a very finely-tuned kind if illness, and many of these killers are able to function quite normally in society while planning for months or years in advance leading up to their violent act. I'm actually really heartened by the calls for more funding for research and treatment of mental health issues. It wasn't very long ago when mental health was a thing no one ever talked about and going to a therapist meant you were nuts. Things like Sandy Hook and the various other school shootings did change the conversation about mental health for the better, even though it really feels like it hasn't. It's the sort of thing that's really hard to see in the moment unless you take a step back and look at where we were even 10 years ago. When politicians speak on the subject, it's essentially still toddlers who want to sound smart, but it's at least a step in the right direction. We'll never be able to determine what the problem is when we don't have enough information to even understand the questions we should be asking.
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May 26, 2017 09:05
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Yeah I absolutely agree with this. While there are some clearly mentally-ill spree killers, like Jared Loughner or Adam Lanza, a lot of them have more in common with those who join terrorist groups. Was Timothy McVeigh mentally ill? It's hard to say, and if he was, he had a very finely-tuned kind of illness, and many of these killers are able to function quite normally in society while planning for months or years in advance leading up to their violent act. I think this is why it's so much easier to just go 'well obviously they're a loon, who can know what they're thinking?' whenever something awful like that happens, because it's weirdly comforting in some way to be able to put this behavior in a single box that makes the perpetrators clearly separate from the rest of society. The idea that someone without any form of actual mental illness can nevertheless rationalize doing such loving horrifying things absolutely freaks people out. We don't want to think about that. Besides, it's a whole lot easier than addressing the underlying societal issues that encourage it. Making it harder, of course, is that mental illness is an extraordinarily broad term covering a wide range of issues and all of those issues tend to have their own spectrums of severity and symptoms and it's not uncommon for them to intermix. The difference between 'sane' and 'insane' isn't a line, it's a broad scale with very few clear markers and everyone responds differently to treatment even when they can get it, so figuring out where anyone would even fit on such a registry would be a nightmare in and of itself. Edit: LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I'm actually really heartened by the calls for more funding for research and treatment of mental health issues. It wasn't very long ago when mental health was a thing no one ever talked about and going to a therapist meant you were nuts. Things like Sandy Hook and the various other school shootings did change the conversation about mental health for the better, even though it really feels like it hasn't. It's the sort of thing that's really hard to see in the moment unless you take a step back and look at where we were even 10 years ago. When politicians speak on the subject, it's essentially still toddlers who want to sound smart, but it's at least a step in the right direction. Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely, 100% in favor for more research and treatment and generally bettering our mental healthcare as a whole, but that's not really the aim whenever it comes up in the context of addressing gun violence. Apart from the issues I already mentioned (not even knowing if the perpetrator was mentally ill, etc), it's used as a scapegoat and a distraction by and large, most especially if it's Republicans talking about it. I see very little actual interest from politicians to do anything about mental illness beyond 'no let's talk about the crazy people instead of gun control' when this happens, so when it's over it hasn't done anything beyond associate the mentally ill with violent murderers in the minds of the public. Which is something that happens all the loving time in everything, and if anything leads to more violence against people with mental illness, especially from authority figures like the police. kartikeya fucked around with this message at 09:12 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 09:05
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Ekster posted:Go full Khmer Rouge and usher in 1000 years of communism. The country's rural population should invade and forcibly evacuate all the cities to purify them through honest farmwork?
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May 26, 2017 09:06
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Trabisnikof posted:Nothing Democrats can say or do will make them think otherwise. They still think Obama is coming for their guns. I'm a gun owner and vote dem pretty much always. I don't think they're stupid enough to try. However I do think the crazies like Feinstein do little to help the situation. I do get tired of hearing them drag it up over and over again to beat it to death and ultimately do nothing but drive up the costs of poo poo because the dumbshits of the hobby go all loopy
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May 26, 2017 09:09
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If you're completely mental, but have never been diagnosed and grab a gun from your parents/roommates/friends closet or hell even just go buy one and then go shoot up a school wouldn't the most restrictive laws keeping the mentally unstable from buying guns not do a drat thing about that?
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May 26, 2017 09:09
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kartikeya posted:I think this is why it's so much easier to just go 'well obviously they're a loon, who can know what they're thinking?' whenever something awful like that happens, because it's weirdly comforting in some way to be able to put this behavior in a single box that makes the perpetrators clearly separate from the rest of society. The idea that someone without any form of actual mental illness can nevertheless rationalize doing such loving horrifying things absolutely freaks people out. We don't want to think about that. Besides, it's a whole lot easier than addressing the underlying societal issues that encourage it. Saying we need to address the societal issues that encourage mass shootings is essentially grouping up all of the problems we're already trying to fix, like income inequality, systemic racism, sexism, etc, and saying "If we can't fix ALL of these problems there's no way to stop this" and that's a really bad way to think about solving the problem. Normalizing mental health care to the point that everyone can see someone for mental health like they see their primary care physician, and thinking about them asking uncomfortable questions the same way we think about bleeding gums at the dentist (a necessary evil and just a fact of life) would do tremendous amounts of good. Charliegrs posted:If you're completely mental, but have never been diagnosed and grab a gun from your parents/roommates/friends closet or hell even just go buy one and then go shoot up a school wouldn't the most restrictive laws keeping the mentally unstable from buying guns not do a drat thing about that? Yes, for a given meaning of "completely mental", which is why what we need is more emphasis on getting these people help before they decide they have to kill other people.
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May 26, 2017 09:15
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Kilroy posted:Single payer, basic income, democratic socialism. Say we're going to rework corporate charters so if you work for a place you own part of it, by law. Eh, I'd be a little more moderate than that - even saying "How many of you lost coverage or expected to lose coverage under AHCA? How many of you had acceptable, affordable coverage before but no more?" Just hammer away at health care - ACA wasn't wildly popular, whereas AHCA is. A huge boost would be for Dems to come to the table saying "We have a plan to improve ACA/replace AHCA (whatever the case may be in 2018)" and be able to articulate the highlights. Point out that Republicans had 8 years to come up with AHCA and they screwed the pooch but not having anything ready.
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May 26, 2017 09:17
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Charliegrs posted:If you're completely mental, but have never been diagnosed and grab a gun from your parents/roommates/friends closet or hell even just go buy one and then go shoot up a school wouldn't the most restrictive laws keeping the mentally unstable from buying guns not do a drat thing about that? Yep. It would also discourage you from seeking treatment before it gets to that point because you don't want to wind up on a list somewhere as 'crazy person not allowed to own firearms'. It also might contribute to denial about your condition and symptoms because that registry would define the mentally ill as violent and dangerous. It also means someone who isn't a doctor who you haven't given permission to will have access to your medical information. It's just a terrible idea all around, but I keep seeing it come up.
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May 26, 2017 09:17
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Yeah, gonna need a citation on this. Show me where it is in the data that you're not making poo poo up out of fear and anger. It certainly doesn't help when X event takes place and instantly a democrat president is on stage with a crowd of kids and yammering about gun control. Whether he does something or not, he just made it an issue that once again the nutters are going to feed on. I mean, if you're going to say it's not a thing and want it to not be seen as a thing, you need to stop waving around the loving banner that says it is a thing.
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May 26, 2017 09:18
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Republican politicians would not care, that's correct. The issue isn't that. The issue is that they've created a seemingly indestructible media bubble around enough of their audience that they can get away with it. Things start mattering when stuff happening like Trump taking money directly from russians with irrefutable proof comes out and manages to puncture that bubble. Nah I think Republican politicians actually care more about Russia than their voters do, because Republican politicians like swinging America's military dick around everywhere and don't want a rival gaining influence. Also they're mostly old chickenhawks who can only get hard when they're ordering young kids off to die somewhere in Asia. I think we do have a choice: we need to motivate non-voters to come out and vote for us. All Republicans are garbage and there is no sense appealing to them or hoping that one day a moral compass will kick in and they'll start caring about their politicians committing crimes. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:23 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 09:19
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first the brokebrains crying about quist, now gun chat
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May 26, 2017 09:20
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I wonder how Trump will react to the next school shooting?
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May 26, 2017 09:22
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