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punk rebel ecks posted:Why is Latin America so corrupt compared to the United States and Canada? Isn't it also composed of mostly European immigrants from the 19th and 20th centuries? The US had a series of parallelled really strong anticorruption movements in its history after the Civil War, which coupled with national civic education development had the effect of denormalizing corruption for a critical mass of the population.
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May 25, 2017 01:23
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why is Latin America so corrupt compared to the United States and Canada? Isn't it also composed of mostly European immigrants from the 19th and 20th centuries? Ah yes the cranial measurements of the European do tend to militate against political corruption
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May 25, 2017 01:27
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dead comedy forums posted:y'all stay safe loving hell Why? Everything is loving fine around here apparently. Just tuned in to some news radio in my car and all they talk about is football. What a loving joke.
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May 25, 2017 01:29
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Badger of Basra posted:Ah yes the cranial measurements of the European do tend to militate against political corruption Dude phrases stuff weird but I don't think he's malicious when he asks those questions. Well, even though you're technically right, there are a lot of differences between how Brazil and the USA were colonized. The oversimplified explanation we get at school is that we were a "exploitation colony", while the USA was a "settlement" - Portugal had little intention of developing Brazil, while the pilgrims wanted to start a new life in America. It works as a catch-all, but there's some extra factors in there. Our independence wasn't a popular movement at all - it was a political maneuver by a Portuguese noble, to keep power in their hands and the plantations going. It worked, because we lagged behind while other countries were going thru the industrial boom of the 1800s. We also had one of, if not the longest slavery period in history. That both kept us stuck with agriculture as our biggest money source AND delayed the development of a consumer market. Plus, our "democracy" was for the longest time two separate groups of ruralists taking turns in government, the "café com leite" (coffee with milk) period, that concentrated power in the hands of Minas Gerais and São Paulo. You might notice a similar trend in our current political landscape. We were talking about how unequality breeds corruption, and there you go, a very unequal country due to its development is still quite corrupt. WHO colonized us isn't as important as WHY the colonized us, or WHAT the endgame plan for that colony was.
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May 25, 2017 02:03
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Let's not forget the US has some pretty huge corruption issues in the early 20th century, but then got to benefit greatly from the outcome of the World Wars while most of LA remained poor nations that then became proxy battlegrounds for the Cold War.
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May 25, 2017 02:17
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I would say corruption in the USA occurs on a scale any individual Latin American country could not hope to match.
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May 25, 2017 02:32
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That's another point: I think America is incredibly corrupt, but it had the cash and structure to avoid loving up too hard. Hell, I look at Japan and that country is a mess too, South Korea had a CULTIST in power and she didn't even had the decency to be a Satanist like our dude.
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May 25, 2017 02:42
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tekz posted:I would say corruption in the USA occurs on a scale any individual Latin American country could not hope to match. Most objective measures of corruption place the US near, but not at, one end of the distribution as one of the cleanest countries on earth. Transparency International ranks every country in SA as worse than the US.
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May 25, 2017 02:42
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eh
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May 25, 2017 02:55
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Discendo Vox posted:Most objective measures of corruption place the US near, but not at, one end of the distribution as one of the cleanest countries on earth. Transparency International ranks every country in SA as worse than the US. I suspect that's due to their definition of corruption/method of measuring it. It likely focuses on individual-level corruption, like cops taking bribes.
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May 25, 2017 03:00
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The US isn't corrupt because the machinery of government is doing exactly what it was designed to do and is legally setup to allow. It's war as opposed to murder.
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May 25, 2017 03:06
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Cup Runneth Over posted:I suspect that's due to their definition of corruption/method of measuring it. It likely focuses on individual-level corruption, like cops taking bribes. Well yeah that's kind of the point. Major industries having major pull in the political arena isn't corruption, that's just literally the reality of capitalism, and indeed most forms of socialism.
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May 25, 2017 03:10
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Dias posted:she didn't even had the decency to be a Satanist like our dude. thanks for reminding me that this is still a thing https://twitter.com/temerpoeta/status/866810421436698624
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May 25, 2017 03:16
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fishmech posted:Well yeah that's kind of the point. Major industries having major pull in the political arena isn't corruption, that's just literally the reality of capitalism, and indeed most forms of socialism. Funny that this "reality of capitalism" wasn't the case for most of US history I mean not that I'm going to disagree that capitalism is majorly flawed
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May 25, 2017 03:21
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Funny that this "reality of capitalism" wasn't the case for most of US history Haha are you high? Who do you think bankrolled the revolution? Who do you think made money off all the various land seizures and wars? What do you think the gilded age was? It was absolutely the case for all of US history.
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May 25, 2017 03:26
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Again, this "most corrupt" thing isn't something that you can easily settle. Not that the US is as corrupt as Brazil. But look at how, say, Atlanta is spending a ton of public money to replace stadiums that are less than 20 years old. But to the extent that we can measure corruption, it isn't about culture. It's about inequality. When inequality reaches Latin American extremes, the rich don't even have to pretend about any Rawlsian sense of justice. At least in the US they will pretend that giving millions to billionaires for a new stadium is for the benefit of all. Of course, the corollary to this is that the more unequal US society becomes the more, say, Trumpian it will become.
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May 25, 2017 05:08
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Dias posted:Dude phrases stuff weird but I don't think he's malicious when he asks those questions. Perfect response. Thank you! 
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May 25, 2017 05:24
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Canada is also pretty drat corrupt and almost literally every government since confederation has had at least one major corruption scandal so it's not really a good comparison (major publications prefer to think the french or first nations are to blame usually).
Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 05:31 on May 25, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 05:29
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I doubt I'm the first to do so in this thread but I'm going to recommend "The Open Veins of Latin America" to anyone who is (reasonably) confused at how could South America turn out so hosed up in comparison to [insert other place here].
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May 25, 2017 06:53
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fishmech posted:Haha are you high? Who do you think bankrolled the revolution? Who do you think made money off all the various land seizures and wars? What do you think the gilded age was? Lobbying isn't corruption, I'm talking specifically about pay-to-play and buying votes/politicians, which you can't deny the US is absolutely rife with. Political machines used to rule politics, not corporations. This is literally poo poo they teach you in high school, maybe go back to it.
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May 25, 2017 07:00
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The big difference is probably visibility and legality, most corrupt in the US is behind closed doors and/or is often technically legal (like working for a "think-tank" after office, giving half a million dollar speeches etc). If you don't see bribery at the street level then it becomes much harder to acknowledge. Also remember the US is a hybrid between settlement and exploitation (the American South). The ultimate reason why the US was more successful probably has to do with primarily geography, and a critical mass of settlers during the 18th century. The US itself is ideal for colonization, massive amounts of arable land and relatively few barriers for the expansion of settlement. It also is located closer to Europe.
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May 25, 2017 09:16
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Lobbying isn't corruption, I'm talking specifically about pay-to-play and buying votes/politicians, which you can't deny the US is absolutely rife with. Political machines used to rule politics, not corporations. This is literally poo poo they teach you in high school, maybe go back to it. So once again something literally every capitalist state has. And something the US in particular has always had. Hell in the 1800s the rich would buy the man on the street's vote just outside the polling places with cash, food, and alcohol. To say nothing of they'd hire people to get random folks drunk, abduct them, and force them to vote for the client multiple times across a city.
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May 25, 2017 14:09
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Dias posted:Well, even though you're technically right, there are a lot of differences between how Brazil and the USA were colonized. The oversimplified explanation we get at school is that we were a "exploitation colony", while the USA was a "settlement" - Portugal had little intention of developing Brazil, while the pilgrims wanted to start a new life in America. Just to sketch a less simplified version of this: Brazil was a pure colony of exploitation until D. João VI escaped to Brazil. While here he tried to push Brazil to become the metropolis. This fact shaped Brazil's history into (a little?) better place if you contrast to other countries in south america.
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May 25, 2017 14:43
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Ardennes posted:The big difference is probably visibility and legality, most corrupt in the US is behind closed doors and/or is often technically legal (like working for a "think-tank" after office, giving half a million dollar speeches etc). If you don't see bribery at the street level then it becomes much harder to acknowledge. Yeah a lot of stuff that is "legal" in the US is at least nominally illegal here and in the neighborhood: lobbying, regulator collusion, etc which makes me wonder what are the actual criteria for those rankings/discussions
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May 25, 2017 15:33
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True, but there is also the small-time day to day aspect, which is different. My american ex-fiancee was appalled at how often cops would let something small slide for a 'tip', and health inspectors and such would turn a blind eye for a bribe. Then again, as a southern girl, she had a looong list of remembered incidents in which she and her friends would be driving drunk, sometimes driving WHILE drinking, and a cop would just chuckle and let them go because hey, just nice while kids having fun, what's the harm?
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May 25, 2017 16:07
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dead comedy forums posted:Yeah a lot of stuff that is "legal" in the US is at least nominally illegal here and in the neighborhood: lobbying, regulator collusion, etc which makes me wonder what are the actual criteria for those rankings/discussions Corruption mostly isn't consistently defined, nor is it directly measured. The leading rankings are based on polls asking think tank people and business executives how corrupt they feel the various countries are, and then magic sauce/aggregating the results. Here's one survey question that was aggregated into Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index (very well-known and constantly being brought up everywhere): CPI Sources 2014 posted:Corruption Question So I think it's best to think of it as a rating akin to credit ratings. "This is how experts currently feel about country X".
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May 25, 2017 16:29
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Discendo Vox posted:Most objective measures of corruption place the US near, but not at, one end of the distribution as one of the cleanest countries on earth. Transparency International ranks every country in SA as worse than the US. You're going to get less of the local government official at the DMV or whatever wanting baksheesh if you want to get your work done. You will have legislators, senior military officials, etc. acting against the interests of the people they represent and coincidentally going on to get nice sinecures and massive amounts of money from the industries they acted in favour of. The amount of money involved dwarfs that of any individual latin american country. also a quick google search for 'Transparency International' reveals this lmfao: https://www.transparency.org/news/pressrelease/transparency_international_confirms_the_disaccreditation_of_its_chapter_in https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/transparency-international-strips-us-affiliate-of-accreditation/ quote:Transparency International, the world’s leading anti-corruption movement, confirmed that its International Board of Directors decided on 10 January 2017 to disaccredit Transparency International-USA as the National Chapter in the United States. quote:Transparency International USA joins the likes of Transparency Croatia in having its credentials stripped. mila kunis fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 25, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 17:41
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Oh yeah, that's the stuff.
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May 25, 2017 17:54
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GimmickMan posted:I doubt I'm the first to do so in this thread but I'm going to recommend "The Open Veins of Latin America" to anyone who is (reasonably) confused at how could South America turn out so hosed up in comparison to [insert other place here]. In Mexico we call that book the bible of the Left. Haven't read it though 
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May 25, 2017 18:21
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Yeah, in the case of the US, it isn't corruption because the forces who control the political process are so powerful they can rewrite definitions as they see fit (and who is going to call them on it?). Hell, there are thousands of people in and around DC working on new definitions all the time. That said, I think it is only really possible to grasp how the US actually works by living outside of it for a significant period of time and very few Americans do that.
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May 25, 2017 18:24
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Yeah, in the case of the US, it isn't corruption because the forces who control the political process are so powerful they can rewrite definitions as they see fit (and who is going to call them on it?). Hell, there are thousands of people in and around DC working on new definitions all the time. That said, I think it is only really possible to grasp how the US actually works by living outside of it for a significant period of time and very few Americans do that. Yeah, American nationalism is very much a thing that exists (it is a bit creepy how people deny it) as is American corruption. That said, it is very hard to take a look in the mirror when you are "on top."
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May 25, 2017 18:28
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Dias posted:That's another point: I think America is incredibly corrupt, but it had the cash and structure to avoid loving up too hard. Hell, I look at Japan and that country is a mess too, South Korea had a CULTIST in power and she didn't even had the decency to be a Satanist like our dude. The President Park thing will never stop being funny (not least because she's out of office now).
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May 25, 2017 18:42
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tekz posted:also a quick google search for 'Transparency International' reveals this lmfao: The measure I was citing (which remains the most authoritative) was done by the international organization, not the national chapter. edit: Christ, people, read their methodology, not just the name of the measure. They're not walking around countries asking people "how corrupt do you feel like things are"? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 06:52 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 20:28
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The transparency international measure is a measure of perceptions, not of actual corruption. As such, it is pointless to use it as measure of actual corruption. It also makes calling it an "objective measure of corruption" false. The construction of the Atlanta stadiums is widely celebrated, at least in the media, despite how shady it was: https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/cobb-county-and-the-braves-worst-sports-stadium-deal-ever So perception and reality can be very far away.
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May 26, 2017 06:41
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Discendo Vox posted:They're not walking around countries asking people "how corrupt do you feel like things are"? The CPI is ultimately based on asking people, although the specific questions vary (a lot!) and the respondents are carefully chosen. They don't collect data on methods of transportation, but I suspect walking is kept to a minimum. CPI 2014 sources If you want to go a little deeper than the methodology blurb on TI's web site, here's an analysis involving CPI from the Uni of Munich that specifically addresses measures of perception vs. objective measures. Go read it, it's pretty interesting. quote:As mentioned above, both indices, CPI as well as WGI, are based on perceptions of corruption. The data are collected from surveys and expert opinions that measures peoples’ perception of corruption. Why? There are two reasons: So: Accurate (in what it tries to measure) maybe, but not objective.
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May 26, 2017 13:10
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I already read both of those when I was determining which corruption measure to post.
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May 26, 2017 16:28
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Look at these Anglos telling us they've got more corruption than us. What a nerve!
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May 26, 2017 17:25
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Symbolic Butt posted:It's the old brazilian pessimism: Brazil must be absolutely bad and fail at everything. By the way, I also observed this kind of attitude with greeks, it's fascinating.
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May 26, 2017 17:40
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Symbolic Butt posted:By the way, I also observed this kind of attitude with greeks, it's fascinating. Why are Brazilians ashamed of their culture? Shouldn't they celebrate being Brazilian and what makes it so unique?
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May 27, 2017 00:28
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why are Brazilians ashamed of their culture? Shouldn't they celebrate being Brazilian and what makes it so unique? I think a big part of it is what is Brazil and what it means to different Brazilians. There are pretty stark racial, class and regional differences in Brazil and in addition, I think the present-day Brazil is if anything becoming more divided. Greece doesn't have the same racial divides as Brazil but there are also stark class and political differences among the population. There is the broader issue of present-day disfunctionality in both countries.
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May 27, 2017 12:43
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