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Happy Ascension! Also, I'm missing Ascension mass for book club, so it will still be joyous. Sadly I don't think I'd get out of work in time to make it to mass if I had planned to anyway. In on the pet train. Humble yourselves before my pug Beatrice.  TBH my love for cats is strong, but my wife mostly despises them.
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May 25, 2017 23:54
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Thirteen Orphans posted:In some schools of jurisprudence in Islam owning dogs is haram. But on the other hand, there is this anecdote: quote:One of the most famous stories about them is Muezza, the Prophet Muhammad's favorite cat, recounts the call to prayer was given, and as the story goes Prophet Mohammed went to put on one of his robes, he found his cat sleeping on one of the sleeves. Rather than disturbing the cat, he cut off the sleeve and let him sleep. When he returned, Muezza awoke and bowed down to Prophet Muhammad and in return he stroked him three times.
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May 26, 2017 00:53
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Hey, Christianity thread, I have a question! I'm a baby undergraduate student, and I'm trying to put together a list of books I'd like to read this summer break. I'd really like to find a good book about sacred/liturgical music--does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks!
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May 26, 2017 01:29
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HEY GAIL posted:i like to think st christopher looked like a fat shibe I pride myself on being hard to nostalgia, but God-drat it, Japan 
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May 26, 2017 05:56
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Numerical Anxiety posted:But on the other hand, there is this anecdote: Came to post this. Also, I heard it was 8 or 9 times, so responsible for cats having nine lives. Prophet pettes = strongest pettes. One ever shows up, I'm flopping over and getting all the rubs!
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May 26, 2017 07:12
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Tias posted:Came to post this. Also, I heard it was 8 or 9 times, so responsible for cats having nine lives. Mohamed only pet the cat three times because he knew that the fourth time would get a maulin'. You don't get to be a prophet by getting clawed by your cat.
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May 26, 2017 07:26
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So I'm discussing with a pagan homie, who says christian dudes never had homosexual relationships in the middle ages - but I'm pretty sure I read itt that both priests, monks and saints had it going on, and, IIRC, some of them got married? Can you guys help me out? I'm particularly keen on the marriage thing, since she says that was straight up impossible.
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May 26, 2017 08:39
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Tias posted:So I'm discussing with a pagan homie, who says christian dudes never had homosexual relationships in the middle ages - but I'm pretty sure I read itt that both priests, monks and saints had it going on, and, IIRC, some of them got married? https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Social-Tolerance-Homosexuality-Fourteenth/dp/0226067114 the same author also claimed that same-sex union (slightly different from marriage, since the latter was about inheritance rights) was also a thing in the Eastern and Western churches. This book was more contentious--certainly rites for some kind of same sex union exist in prayer books, but people don't know what it was precisely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-Sex_Unions_in_Pre-Modern_Europe (The guys on the cover of the second book are my homies, Ss. Sergius and Bacchus, a gay couple. I like that icon but I never have figured out what's around their necks--possibly reliquaries?) I've read the first book and it's good; I haven't read the second. If you want the early modern period instead of the middle ages, read Bray's The Friend. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n11/james-davidson/mr-and-mr-and-mrs-and-mrs HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:05 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 08:58
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Cool! She's a really righteous thunderfuck who thinks RT is a credible source because it's not NATO, maaan, so I'm a bit worried I'm wasting my time but thanks anyway 
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May 26, 2017 09:09
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Tias posted:Cool! She's a really righteous thunderfuck who thinks RT is a credible source because it's not NATO, maaan, so I'm a bit worried I'm wasting my time but thanks anyway Oh great, the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend people who can't seem to realize that said 'friend' can also be a huge shitstain. Stick it to the Man by shacking up with a differently evil Man. Also, I'm p. sure that NATO is the only reason why we haven't had LGMs popping up around here, so I see it's growth as a positive thing. If only we could boot Turkey out, tho.
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May 26, 2017 09:30
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silo-launched guided missiles  E: yeah, she immediately cited his critics Boswell on loving wikipedia instead of wondering if her rear end-grown opinion was wrong, so I'm wasting my time here 
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May 26, 2017 09:32
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Tias posted:silo-launched guided missiles Little Green Men, the totes not Russian spec ops soldiers that took over Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea before handing the fight off to the other scum.
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May 26, 2017 10:09
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JcDent posted:Little Green Men, the totes not Russian spec ops soldiers that took over Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea before handing the fight off to the other scum. Hungarian fascists are milking that conflict for all its worth. 250 of them on one side, 400 on the other, and it's the same party that's totally not sending them there. Gotta get that combat experience and loot somewhere. 
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May 26, 2017 12:12
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Tias posted:silo-launched guided missiles Sometimes people will just believe what they want to believe, dude.
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May 26, 2017 12:31
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Sure, but we're working together on some faith projects, and she presents her own feelings on things to be more important than anything else. I'd let it go, but it's a bit hard to just stand around when people tell others things that have no basis in reality.
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May 26, 2017 13:59
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my dad posted:Hungarian fascists are milking that conflict for all its worth. 250 of them on one side, 400 on the other, and it's the same party that's totally not sending them there. Gotta get that combat experience and loot somewhere. Are those the same that are linked - at least by Chapo - to Gooorkaaa?
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May 26, 2017 16:50
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So this might be a can of worms, but I don't really have anyone to ask about it. I am struggling with the concept of the Devil/Satan and emphasis on the idea that there's this external spiritual threat actively attempting to corrupt and lead man astray. Obviously some denominations focus more heavily on that than others, but I don't understand why if it is within God's power to deal with that, it isn't dealt with, so to speak. Not trying to be dismissive, but it just seems over the top and unnecessary since there's also a lot of emphasis on Man falling short of the glory of God by nature. I don't know what I'm really asking. The whole idea is hard for me to reconcile.
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May 26, 2017 17:21
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Meridian posted:So this might be a can of worms, but I don't really have anyone to ask about it. I am struggling with the concept of the Devil/Satan and emphasis on the idea that there's this external spiritual threat actively attempting to corrupt and lead man astray. Obviously some denominations focus more heavily on that than others, but I don't understand why if it is within God's power to deal with that, it isn't dealt with, so to speak. I, for one, am with you. I don't need the existence of Satan to explain evil. There is God, and there is absence of God. Many opposite concepts are actually the presence or absence of a single thing - light and dark, hot and cold. To me, "evil" is the default state of the universe, with everything acting in its own interests to the exclusion of others. Good is actively choosing to follow the will of God and putting aside natural inclinations. I don't claim it's philosophically or theologically rigorous, as I don't have the tools to develop the idea that far. However, in searching to simplify my understanding of the universe, I have found Satan to be an unnecessary extra variable I can throw away.
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May 26, 2017 17:31
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Deteriorata posted:I, for one, am with you. I don't need the existence of Satan to explain evil. There is God, and there is absence of God. Many opposite concepts are actually the presence or absence of a single thing - light and dark, hot and cold. To me, "evil" is the default state of the universe, with everything acting in its own interests to the exclusion of others. Good is actively choosing to follow the will of God and putting aside natural inclinations. I've been more and more interested lately in the Catholic church, and while I agree with everything you posted, one runs up against the idea that one cannot pick and choose which parts of the whole they want to believe. That's its own struggle though. Suppose I was interested in hearing other people's take on the situation because I can't reason it out on my own.
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May 26, 2017 17:41
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Meridian posted:I've been more and more interested lately in the Catholic church, and while I agree with everything you posted, one runs up against the idea that one cannot pick and choose which parts of the whole they want to believe. You can and everybody, necessarily, does. Some people may choose to believe whatever the doctrine of their faith says they should, some people don't, and some that don't might fib about it if asked. But as it's all what you believe and nobody can actually audit your brain except, presumably, God, I find there to be a great deal of variation between beliefs from person to person.
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May 26, 2017 18:17
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OwlFancier posted:You can and everybody, necessarily, does. Some people may choose to believe whatever the doctrine of their faith says they should, some people don't, and some that don't might fib about it if asked. Well right, of course. That doesn't change that the official position is "believe this thing as stated," which I would want to try to do if I was a part of that faith. Can only go so far personally though.
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May 26, 2017 18:22
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Very shortly put, Satan is already dealt with. Because we're living constrained by time, it gets fuzzy when trying to talk about, nevermind think of, the divine perspective. However, in the same way that death and sin are already conquered, so has Satan lost. The Book of Revelation is often a confusing mess of images, allegories, prophecies and more, and at least I haven't gotten enough education to tell which part talks about what exactly. It's pretty clear, however, that the book agrees with both the existence of and the eventual, inevitable demise of the devil. I'm firmly in the camp that talking about Satan isn't too necessary (and might even be counter-productive for reaching out to people) in our culture and time but I would probably have to re-examine that stance if I suddenly found myself living in central Africa or something.
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May 26, 2017 18:56
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Another point where I'm in deep conflict with what you hear in a lot of Evangelical churches. I think humanity is sinful by nature and does enough awful poo poo on its own without positing Satan or demons tempting us.
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May 26, 2017 19:16
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JcDent posted:Are those the same that are linked - at least by Chapo - to Gooorkaaa? Maybe? I dunno about that stuff. I mostly know about them via Jobbik related poo poo.
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May 26, 2017 20:33
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At the end of time, the Devil will also be reclaimed into God, probably. But in the mean time, since I'm Orthodox, my church blames demons for a lot of the random bad poo poo that happens in the world, such as suicide. I think the reason you're supposed to make the sign of the Cross over your food before you eat it is to get the demons out--i've always imagined them as the spiritual equivalent of gnats or something. Those little insects that are everywhere in the desert.
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May 26, 2017 21:50
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I wonder if there is subsequently a market for cross shaped bug zappers.
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May 26, 2017 21:55
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The forty days in the desert would be much less compelling a story if not for the devil, but beyond that? Yeah, I'm in general agreement with the rest of you. The devil adds very little except questions about fallen angels so confusing that even the scholastics tried to shy away from as much as was possible. Personally, I blame Origen. If not for his manifestly reaching allegorizing of a passage in Ezekiel, we could have been rid of this stuff. Numerical Anxiety fucked around with this message at 22:44 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 22:24
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HEY GAIL posted:At the end of time, the Devil will also be reclaimed into God, probably. But in the mean time, since I'm Orthodox, my church blames demons for a lot of the random bad poo poo that happens in the world, such as suicide. I think the reason you're supposed to make the sign of the Cross over your food before you eat it is to get the demons out--i've always imagined them as the spiritual equivalent of gnats or something. Those little insects that are everywhere in the desert. My view is that that kind of poo poo happens because we live in a world made cruel and filled with terrible things because of sin, we as humans gently caress up quite well without demons. God's challenge to us is to make the world better. Bleak as that may seem, it's a comforting thought to me.
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May 26, 2017 22:56
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That and the confusion regarding Satan as The Devil. I thought Satan's whole deal was more or less being God's prosecutor, like it was a title. Does it say explicitly that the devil is Satan somewhere? I admittedly haven't read much beyond the gospels.
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May 26, 2017 23:35
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Of course, then there's the monks who apparently run into demons all the time. St. Silouan once had a demon appear in front of his icons, expecting him to bow.
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May 26, 2017 23:40
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Meridian posted:That and the confusion regarding Satan as The Devil. I thought Satan's whole deal was more or less being God's prosecutor, like it was a title. Does it say explicitly that the devil is Satan somewhere? In the New Testament, yeah, Satan is the proper name of the king of the devils; see Mark 3 and Matthew 4 for specific instances. The history is a bit complicated though. In Hebrew "Satan" is a generic word that means something like "adversary" or "opponent" - it can mean something like accuser too, which is probably where the legal connotation crops up. The word appears variously in the Old Testament, and not always referring to a specific figure. It does sometimes, however, appear with an article, indicating that it denotes a specific figure - The Adversary, whatever we are supposed to understand by that, whether a heavenly D.A. (like in Job), or something demonic (in the prophets). In any case, the gospel passages mentioned above indicate that the term was understood as a name by the first century CE, and yes, that of the devil.
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May 27, 2017 00:05
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Meridian posted:That and the confusion regarding Satan as The Devil. I thought Satan's whole deal was more or less being God's prosecutor, like it was a title. Does it say explicitly that the devil is Satan somewhere? Demonology was a rich and well mined vein of crazy in various different stages of the Church. You've got the several different names for "The devil" that may or may not be all teh same person, you've got the association of pagan deities with the devil who are also Roman deities etc. Its all quite complex. Speaking as an Atheist it is a fascinating subtype of religious belief.
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May 27, 2017 00:18
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For me, personally, I come down on the side of thinking demons and devils and Satan are, especially in certain Evangelical circles, a way to shift the blame for bad things happening away from ourselves - or to give agency to something that was just lovely happenstance or an accident.
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May 27, 2017 01:07
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In some ways, demonology is a premodern forerunner of conspiracy theories. You start with a simple premise - all bad things happen because someone wanted it that way, randomness is too horrifying a possibility and cannot be admitted. Then add a measure of credulity born of desperation, where one is willing to accept just about any narrative that explains a bad thing happening according to design. But the narratives need to be synthesized, so one is forced to concoct increasingly bizarre systems as to how the Illuminati, the Bliderberg Group and the Elders of Zion relate to one another. Demonology is just a little bit easier, since its phantastic productions don't have to be forcibly tied to supposedly real people or groups through straw-grasping "evidence."
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May 27, 2017 01:26
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Numerical Anxiety posted:In the New Testament, yeah, Satan is the proper name of the king of the devils; see Mark 3 and Matthew 4 for specific instances. The history is a bit complicated though. In Hebrew "Satan" is a generic word that means something like "adversary" or "opponent" - it can mean something like accuser too, which is probably where the legal connotation crops up. The word appears variously in the Old Testament, and not always referring to a specific figure. It does sometimes, however, appear with an article, indicating that it denotes a specific figure - The Adversary, whatever we are supposed to understand by that, whether a heavenly D.A. (like in Job), or something demonic (in the prophets). In any case, the gospel passages mentioned above indicate that the term was understood as a name by the first century CE, and yes, that of the devil. In my googling to double-check all that, I also found out that there's of course a metal band called Diavolos. Cythereal posted:For me, personally, I come down on the side of thinking demons and devils and Satan are, especially in certain Evangelical circles, a way to shift the blame for bad things happening away from ourselves - or to give agency to something that was just lovely happenstance or an accident. Numerical Anxiety posted:so one is forced to concoct increasingly bizarre systems as to how the Illuminati, the Bliderberg Group and the Elders of Zion relate to one another. Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 01:47 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 01:44
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JcDent posted:Are those the same that are linked - at least by Chapo - to Gooorkaaa?
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May 27, 2017 03:37
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Hey guys, if you wanna know more about demons - maybe just ask them? disclaimer: I'm such a pussy that I was even too much of a craven to enter the "say the hail mary thrice backwards in a mirror" game in school. SavageGentleman fucked around with this message at 18:23 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 18:10
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lmao if you didn't try to summon and communicate with demons and ancient gods when you were in high school
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May 27, 2017 18:33
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SavageGentleman posted:Hey guys, if you wanna know more about demons - maybe just ask them? The Ars Goetia in general is a rad sourcebook if you want any spooky sigils for art or something. Dictionaire Infernal makes a pretty good monster manual too.  
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May 27, 2017 19:13
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So that's what  was doing in his early years...
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May 27, 2017 21:02
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