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I like that a lot. I'll try to play out some scenarios and see how well it works.
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# ? May 28, 2017 03:47 |
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# ? May 28, 2024 16:19 |
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That just boils down to "Have another spell slot" though, doesn't it? And a quickened one at that.
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# ? May 28, 2017 03:51 |
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That's nearly every good warlock invocation. Most of the class is about shortcutting your way around the fact that you still have 2 spell slots at level 10 and 4 at level 20.
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# ? May 28, 2017 04:46 |
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With the exception of Silent Image and the extremely situational (and late-level) Chains of Carceri, all of the at-will spells from Invocations are self-only utility spells. All of the control spells that come from Invocations eat up one of your Pact Magic slots. They're not free castings of Hypnotic Pattern or Hold Monster as a bonus action. Warlock isn't magical artillery, they play more like a martial class with a basic attack they spam and then some really nasty tricks in their back pockets. Edit: If you're trying to "fix" the spell slots issue, rolling out a must-have pact boon isn't the way to go about it. If you're DMing, just give warlock players more slots. Give them a full caster progression if you really want to. They're fine as they are IMO but do whatever's fun. I like the core concept behind your homebrew but it seems like you're using it to address a bigger issue you have with the class. Reclaimer fucked around with this message at 05:42 on May 28, 2017 |
# ? May 28, 2017 05:07 |
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I am thinking about giving the Warlock in the game I am DMing a Dagger of Blood Magic. Kills made with this dagger recover slots totaling up to the CR value of the enemy slain. Have the dagger power up its damage dice when the Pact Magic is running on empty. Give him some sort of reason not to be afraid of using his two slots, as long as he is willing to risk getting into the fray and trying to finish something off to replenish them... or executing a subdued enemy with it. Just a risk/reward mechanic he can choose to play around with if he gets tired of Eldritch Blasting everything.
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# ? May 28, 2017 06:15 |
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Neon Knight posted:I am thinking about giving the Warlock in the game I am DMing a Dagger of Blood Magic. Kills made with this dagger recover slots totaling up to the CR value of the enemy slain. Have the dagger power up its damage dice when the Pact Magic is running on empty. Give him some sort of reason not to be afraid of using his two slots, as long as he is willing to risk getting into the fray and trying to finish something off to replenish them... or executing a subdued enemy with it. Just a risk/reward mechanic he can choose to play around with if he gets tired of Eldritch Blasting everything. In my current Warlock game, we have a "help as bonus action" and variation on flank rule that puts me into the fray fairly often with Shocking Grasp via Tome. Granted that's also because our DM strictly enforces cover granted by other characters and our Paladin insists on plugging up doorways (which, I get, but it's obnoxious as an Eldritch Blast user)
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# ? May 28, 2017 08:53 |
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Warlocks get more uses of their higher level spells than other classes at equivalent levels and they recover on a short rest. People who have a problem with this misunderstand the class as a different flavor of full caster. They're not. Warlocks operate on completely different principles than Wizards/Clerics/Bards - they're more akin to Ranged Battle Masters, with Eldritch Blast as their weapon and Pact Magic as their maneuvers. Invocations offer utility but realistically you'll be spending most of them in combat benefits if you wish to be effective, because warlocks are not tool boxes.They are not wizards. Book of Ancient Secrets is amazing though.
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# ? May 28, 2017 09:07 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:Warlocks get more uses of their higher level spells than other classes at equivalent levels and they recover on a short rest. No. Warlocks get very, very, very, few spells per day. They are lucky if they get 4 per day by say 9th level. Extremely lucky. This is largely in part because Short Rests take an hour, and stuff recharges on a Short Rest instead of after each Encounter. So, at least in my experience, you rarely get even 1 Short Rest in a day, let alone the actual expected number. At a high enough level you will have 3 or 4 Spell Slots per Short Rest, but you still have to ration them carefully. Lets just ignore the 1/day cast of 1 specific spell per spell level of 6th and higher that you get after 10th level. Because for the most part those are fairly pathetic. And do not a spellcaster make. If you get to level 20 you get a feature that ... sucks. There are a few interesting, or maybe even good, Invocations. But pretty much to a one they could have all been available at will at no later than 5th level. Despite being a caster the Warlock is largely a middling average archer. They can do some good damage with Hex up, but it doesn't really compare to a Fighter with a good magic bow. Or the same with a Ranger. Yes Ranger. By the way the Ranger gets more spells than the Warlock. Now if Warlocks worked like in the Playtest, or better yet like in 3.5, then yes they would really stand out as something unique. And I say this with a lot of experience playing a Warlock, and with a penchant for splashing Warlock here and there in a lot of builds.
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# ? May 28, 2017 09:18 |
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5e just needs to steal a page from SotDL and only stat out classes to like 5 or 6 levels, let multiclassing take care of the rest.
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# ? May 28, 2017 10:06 |
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Ryuujin posted:No. Yes, they get few spells per day but they get the same or more spells of the higher available slot for full casters. If you only got one short rest bam you have more higher level slots. They lose out on low level slots. That's what it means to be a Warlock - you cast your big spell and the rest of the fight is spent Eldritch Blasting with push back, or advantage if you used Darkness. I'm also not mentioning the Mystic Arcanum because full casters only get one slot of each level above 5 as well anyway. Bards and Sorcerers end their level progression at 18. Warlocks aren't special in this regard either. And nothing compares damage-wise to a Fighter or smiting Paladin so that's a non-argument, but if the martials are getting magic items that boost their effectiveness and you don't thats a DM issue. Same as not getting any short rests at all, which fucks other short-rest resource classes as well.
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# ? May 28, 2017 10:48 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:Yes, they get few spells per day but they get the same or more spells of the higher available slot for full casters. If you only got one short rest bam you have more higher level slots. They lose out on low level slots. That's what it means to be a Warlock - you cast your big spell and the rest of the fight is spent Eldritch Blasting with push back, or advantage if you used Darkness. No, again. They do not have the same number of spells as a full caster at high levels. They have a grand total of 0 spell slots above 5th level. They get 1/day spells, from a list that mostly sucks. This is not even remotely close to the same as the single spell slot of each spell level from 6 to 9. They don't get a choice of spells that they can use whichever is the best for that situation, they can't upsize a spell for greater effect into those spell slots, They can't spend those high level spells for other things, like they could with their actual spell slots. It would have been better if they didn't get Mystic Arcanum at all, instead getting an actual useful and thematic class feature. Now I won't say that the level 9 spell Foresight is the only good option they get at those levels, but it nearly is. Of course I dislike a large number of Invocations, every single one that gives you a spell that you can cast 1/day using a spell slot. They are completely un-Warlock like, and very rarely worth picking. If ever. And of course I would have prefered something closer to the Playtest Warlock or the 3.5 Warlock. A class with absolutely 0 spellcasting. Instead having at will Invocations like the 3.5 Warlock, or maybe even the pick various boons like in the Playtest. where some were at will and some used a short rest recharging mechanic. Though of course I would still prefer the at will 3.5 attempt. It may be hard to compare to a smiting Paladin, not impossible, but hard. But the Fighter? Lots of classes can compare. Though admittedly a Fighter getting a magic weapon with some extra dice can out damage the Warlock yes. The Warlock is not the best of designed classes. That said yes lack of Short Rests hurt those classes that rely on it. Though no class relies on it as much as the Warlock. Its almost like using a Short Rest recharge mechanic, instead of a per encounter mechanic, was a poor design decision in a game with 1 hour long Short Rests. Also Bards and Sorcerers end their level progression at level 18. Warlocks end their level progression at level 10. Yes I can see that, the level 20 Bard feature is pretty terrible as well, same with Sorcerer. A lot of those features were actually decent in the last Playtest packet, but then were nerfed for no reason in the final release. Looking at you Battlemaster Fighter. That said Sorcerer level 14 of the Draconic Bloodline gets a feature that is better than anything the Warlock gets...ever. Still find it funny that a Monk archetype gets at will short range teleport, and a Sorcerer archetype, as well as a few archetypes in other classes, get at will flight, both things that were exclusive to Warlocks in 3.5 but the Warlock cannot get now in 5e.
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# ? May 28, 2017 11:07 |
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Warlock is easily my favorite class in terms of flavor and RP hooks and all that but man I hope my current game lasts long enough that I can get into cool poo poo (and that I can bail out around 11)
Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 11:33 on May 28, 2017 |
# ? May 28, 2017 11:31 |
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Eh, at 15th level I've effectively got 8 spells per day and 3 of those recharge off a short rest, not to mention the single most powerful cantrip in the game. I frequently get to the end of an adventure with enough slots left over to cast Dream and gently caress with my partymates during their long rest. It gets better.
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# ? May 28, 2017 17:18 |
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Warlock is easily my favorite class in terms of flavor and RP hooks and all that but man I hope my current game lasts long enough that I can get into cool poo poo (and that I can bail out around 11) Eh, Warlocks get the same number of 6th-level-and-up spells as the other spellcasters, high level Warlock never seemed that bad to me. (Though admittedly I've never played one that high.) I find the trick for having fun with the Warlock at low levels while you're still waiting for the best class features is to take the Invocation that gives you Disguise Self as an at-will power. That one has so much utility for something you can pick up so early that being able to cast other spells every now and then just feels like a bonus.
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# ? May 28, 2017 18:03 |
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:I find the trick for having fun with the Warlock at low levels while you're still waiting for the best class features is to take the Invocation that gives you Disguise Self as an at-will power. That one has so much utility for something you can pick up so early that being able to cast other spells every now and then just feels like a bonus. My yuan-ti warlock named Voldemort took that and the actor feat so he could pass as Tom the Human Man in public. Having good damage and control options as well as being the party face is pretty fun.
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# ? May 28, 2017 18:16 |
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Eh, Warlocks get the same number of 6th-level-and-up spells as the other spellcasters, high level Warlock never seemed that bad to me. (Though admittedly I've never played one that high.) Counter-point: my party has attacked our warlock literally every single time she disguises herself as someone important because it's hilarious
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# ? May 28, 2017 18:23 |
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Eh, Warlocks get the same number of 6th-level-and-up spells as the other spellcasters, high level Warlock never seemed that bad to me. (Though admittedly I've never played one that high.) Yeah that one's next on my list, and I'd love to abuse it with Friends. One of my big complaints about Warlock is too many basically mandatory things have to be picked up early -- more so if you're going Tome lock since you'll want Book of Ancient Secrets. You have to play a good while before you can really justify getting a lot of the "fun" stuff. Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 18:55 on May 28, 2017 |
# ? May 28, 2017 18:50 |
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Splashing Warlock is very valuable for various reasons for a few different classes but I gotta join the choir saying I don't see the utility in playing straight Warlock past a certain point. Hell, I'm at 2 levels in Warlock and finding it hard to justify a third instead of just plowing ahead with Sorcerer. But I really want that familiar.
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# ? May 28, 2017 18:54 |
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Either shorten short rests or let Warlocks recharge off of shorter short rests, frankly. I don't like magic items or abilities that trigger on a 'When_Kill" condition because it results in the party fighting over 'last hits' and trying to game the system around it. It can be really swingy.
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# ? May 28, 2017 19:58 |
Reene posted:Splashing Warlock is very valuable for various reasons for a few different classes but I gotta join the choir saying I don't see the utility in playing straight Warlock past a certain point. Play your cards right, and that familiar will give you advantage every turn as well as be an invisible flying security camera.
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# ? May 28, 2017 22:04 |
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I'm looking forward to always-on magic resistance too.
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# ? May 28, 2017 22:14 |
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Krinkle posted:Counter-point: my party has attacked our warlock literally every single time she disguises herself as someone important because it's hilarious I dropped her to 1HP in a single action because I thought the bad guy had taken all of my friends prisoner. It was fantastic.
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# ? May 28, 2017 22:55 |
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So... kind of like a power?
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# ? May 28, 2017 23:51 |
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Seems like you'd end up with a lot of powers. Every Cleric cantrip combined with Healing Word, etc.
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:08 |
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Between this and his recent thoughts on Initiative during his AMA I wonder if Mearls is testing the waters on a 5.5e or 6e.
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:21 |
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I don't know if this is how thaumaturgy is supposed to work but we put a wildfire out by using two tieflings to make fire patches smaller and then a Druid to snuff out campfire-sized fires It was hilarious either way but I'm not sure it was legal
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:23 |
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Spiteski posted:
ahahahahahahahahhahahahahhah ahhahahahhahahhahhhah. Goddamn mearls is the dumbest fucker holy poo poo.
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:26 |
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kingcom posted:ahahahahahahahahhahahahahhah ahhahahahhahahhahhhah. Goddamn mearls is the dumbest fucker holy poo poo. Which one of these chuckle-fucks "invented" Passive Perception for 5e?
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:29 |
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Thumbtacks posted:I don't know if this is how thaumaturgy is supposed to work but we put a wildfire out by using two tieflings to make fire patches smaller and then a Druid to snuff out campfire-sized fires We pissed out a house fire. I mean that lobby is wrecked but nobody died, so. I was begging our warlock to mage hand things that are on fire out the door or prestidigitate out some campfire sized flames but she was mad about getting shot every time she used her disguise self perk, I think. So I'd like to hear some rules lawyering on your issue so I know whether I can still hold this against her. (what can two tieflings do to make fire patches smaller, also?)
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:29 |
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Garl_Grimm posted:Between this and his recent thoughts on Initiative during his AMA I wonder if Mearls is testing the waters on a 5.5e or 6e. I mean it has been about 3 years since release, so if he really wants to be like 3e...
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# ? May 29, 2017 00:35 |
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What in the hell is this - he's just gargling out words. An action that has another action as its triggering prerequisite is already how Bonus Actions are described in 5e to begin with. (or at least, began that way, because now Bonus Actions are also just things you can do by themselves with just the "Bonus Action" action because the design is garbagetown) P.S. of loving course it's Alexander goddamn Macris that Mearls is having a conversation with. Garl_Grimm posted:Which one of these chuckle-fucks "invented" Passive Perception for 5e? That would be Monte Cook, and that was in 2011, so he was like "I've never read 4e, but it seems like this following blog post would be a good way to run Perception" Which was still super out-of-touch because the reason 4e had the Passive Perception concept to begin with was that it was already being officially written about as early as 3e Dungeonscape.
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# ? May 29, 2017 01:07 |
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gradenko_2000 posted:What in the hell is this - he's just gargling out words. An action that has another action as its triggering prerequisite is already how Bonus Actions are described in 5e to begin with. Yeah this is a pretty dumbshit design decision. Like linguistically 'Bonus Action' is stupid, yes. But the most important resource economy in D&D is the action economy; abilities that let you do a thing but which don't consume your primary ability to deal damage or end combat are incredibly valuable. So first you have a problem with minor activities on your turn (like consuming a potion or opening a door) either consuming an action or consuming movement or some other equally obtuse design; or you have them consume no resource whatsoever. So now you've got a ton of combat-adjacent little things that would have fallen into the minor-action folder now gone. Then you have the simple issue that you've now tied all of your bonus-action activities with your primary-action activities. Before I could climb a rope and cast healing word, or attack and cast a minor-action teleport or any number of combinations of those things. Those were legos that could be fit together to build your own turn. If you make everything a single action you no longer have lego blocks; poo poo is either all or nothing. I have a strong suspicion Mearls would just prefer to eliminate minor-action healing altogether, for instance. How is such a bad designer in charge of the biggest name-recognized game? Do people actually like Mearls?
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# ? May 29, 2017 01:45 |
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Spiteski posted:
It's like watching every silicon valley driverless car disruptivator independently reinvent buses and trains.
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# ? May 29, 2017 02:01 |
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Ferrinus posted:It's like watching every silicon valley driverless car disruptivator independently reinvent buses and trains. Bitcoins belatedly realizing the utility of banking regulations EDIT: There's this nice question coming from Twitter: https://twitter.com/SlyFlourish/status/868912331723616256 it turns out the answer is buried in page 121 of the Dungeon Master's Guide: quote:A trap's description specifies the checks and DCs needed to detect it, disable it, or both. A character actively looking for a trap can attempt a Wisdom (Perception) check against the trap's DC. You can also compare the DC to detect the trap with each character's passive Wisdom (Perception) score to determine whether anyone in the party notices the trap in passing. If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage. So far so good, right? Check out this next passage: quote:In addition, dispel magic has a chance of disabling most magic traps. A magic trap's description provides the DC for the ability check made when you use dispel magic. Is there any other instance of a spell being necessary just to enable an ability check, that the spell doesn't actually do anything on its own? ... and then the game takes a hard-swerve into OSR-style "description over rolling": quote:In most cases, a trap's description is clear enough that you can adjudicate whether a character's actions locate or foil the trap. As with many situations, you shouldn't allow die rolling to override clever play and good planning. Use your common sense, drawing on the trap's description to determine what happens. No trap's design can anticipate every possible action that the characters might attempt. I mean, I don't mind this mode of play where doing stuff is doing stuff, but it's disjointed with the presence of a skill check system that's supposed to determine how successful you are at a statement of intent without having to describe specifics. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 02:22 on May 29, 2017 |
# ? May 29, 2017 02:03 |
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Does anyone still have that post where Cook "invented" Passive Perception? Because 5e designers accidentally praising their hated edition is never not funny.
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# ? May 29, 2017 03:13 |
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Razorwired posted:Does anyone still have that post where Cook "invented" Passive Perception? Because 5e designers accidentally praising their hated edition is never not funny. https://web.archive.org/web/20111001032157/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110927 quote:Sep 27, 2011 This is actually even more incoherent than the actual implementation of Passive Perception in 3e Dungeonscape (which predates this blog post by four years) or in 4e because Cook is talking about "ranks" so vaguely as if he didn't know that there's a specific number of ranks you put into Perception.
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# ? May 29, 2017 03:24 |
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I really don't mind passive perception except for the massive fuckup they've had in communicating what things are perceived vs. investigated, leading to infinite goddamn perception checks and people reasonably assuming "surely I'm not handwaving away ALL of this"
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# ? May 29, 2017 06:04 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:And nothing compares damage-wise to a Fighter lemme guess, Champion Fighter with Savage Attacker feat?
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# ? May 29, 2017 08:44 |
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P.d0t posted:lemme guess, Champion Fighter with Savage Attacker feat? From core (Varian Human) Battle Master with Archery Fighting Style, Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. Or the classic GWF+PAM+GWM+Sentinel polearm user, but the above is more reliable. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 09:02 on May 29, 2017 |
# ? May 29, 2017 08:56 |
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# ? May 28, 2024 16:19 |
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I really don't mind passive perception except for the massive fuckup they've had in communicating what things are perceived vs. investigated, leading to infinite goddamn perception checks and people reasonably assuming "surely I'm not handwaving away ALL of this" Which already existed in the previous edition of the game he was designing for. Where it was called, wait for it, "passive perception". It had its own big box on the default character sheet even. There is no possible interpretation of this sequence of events that does not make him look like a giant tool. Now we have Mearles doing the exact same thing, but with the entire concept of class exclusive powers for Martials.
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# ? May 29, 2017 20:05 |