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There is one CG Alien 3 shot, at the end right before it dies when it turns its head and you see its face cracking apart. And oh man, even on the commentary track the effects folks on it like groaned audibly and were embarrassed. There was no laughing or anecdote or anything just a straight like "oh.  "Resurrection had the weirdly bad looking eggs that were practical, but they digitally mad them "pulsate" more than they did normally which was a bizarre choice since they were good enough even in the raw making of footage. Scott's way off the mark but they each have a few digital moments that stand out as absurd. I wonder if his mindset is that Prometheus/Covenant/etc. are like one single movie story to him (IIRC these two movies were originally one script), because as much as I do like Covenant LMAO at it not having some gratuitous run and gun action compared to Alien 3 and Resurrection. Maybe he only read the scripts. 
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May 28, 2017 09:26
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I'm sure he watched them. But he's a busy guy. He probably thought they were forgettable poo poo like most of the world and only remembers the bad parts like the ugly puppet composite in 3 and the bad CGI in 4. Also his Xenos bounce around like Anderson's aliens from AvP so, who knows really.
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May 28, 2017 09:33
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CelticPredator posted:Because gently caress fans sometimes. Edit-- or Cronenberg
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May 28, 2017 09:44
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Clipperton posted:Still, the very first thing they do when they enter the hive is to torch someone they were supposedly there to protect. With guns. Literally, the colonist dies from a chestburster, and that's what they torch. But if you're saying that the chestburster stands for a converted colonist, then you're beginning to realize what's really being said about the alien corruption and why the marines are there. Ripley doesn't take anyone's guns away. The obvious thing to do, which the audience knows is the right decision, is for Gorman to pull the troops out and come up with a different strategy that doesn't force them to lose an impossible fight. Instead, he orders them not to fire and freezes up when they start dying. Ripley has to take over and bust them out with a tank, and command falls to Hicks. They're like Harry and Helen at the end of True Lies, finding love through their Omega Sector membership, raising a daughter and killing terrorists together. It's clear who's to blame for the problems in the world of Aliens and who should fix them:  Ripley's eye level is higher than theirs, and she's bathed in an imposing, angry red that casts dominating shadows and makes her appear even taller. Gorman has a nervous sweat and wears a sissy bandage that may as well be a soiled diaper. Burke is shrunken and downcast, his arms crossed defensively. Gorman takes almost exactly the same position behind Hicks as Burke hides in the shadows during his murder attempt:  quote:Sure, there's a lot of stuff that's in the movie for purely dramatic reasons, anyone who looks for a perfect map to Vietnam is insane. But that works both ways--we can just as easily say that Ripley can't get to her pulse rifle when the facehuggers are after her not because GUNS R AWESOME, but because the movie needs the facehuggers to be a real threat. It's not about the guns. It's about the people wielding them. The facehuggers are a threat because Burke took Ripley's pulse rifle away, the symbol of her bond with Hicks. Burke was going to sabotage his cryosleep chamber after Ripley and Newt were impregnated. quote:I still think it's significant that the decision to escalate the conflict leads directly to an inferno that undermines the stability of the whole region, and draws the marines deeper into the quagmire to boot. And every single time the marines use their firepower, it either blows back on them (literally, in Frost and Crowe's case) or blinds them to the real threat (Hudson cockily kicking rear end only for an alien to sneak up on him from below). You can say it's because the aliens are fighting dirty or whatever, but still: using guns may allow the marines to accomplish short-term objectives but it puts them in a worse position overall. They never gave the order to nuke. It's the crash of the dropship they were going to use to return to the Sulaco that leads to the overheating of the processor. Without weapons, most of them would have been killed off immediately, but they're able to stave off death a little while longer to help the heroes survive. This isn't a statement on the weapons but the character of the people using them. quote:Hang on, is the weapon Ripley, or is the weapon the powerloader? Ripley doesn't get pulled into space. Regardless, I really think the powerloader comes across as a tool rather than a weapon--it's not painted khaki like military hardware, it's safety yellow like construction equipment, and Ripley knows how to use it because she's been working a blue-collar civilian job (as a longshoreman, no less). Again, if Ripley's there to: Rambo: "I've always believed that the mind is the best weapon." Ripley is the wielder of the weapon, so she is the weapon. She becomes a killing machine that has claws and breathes fire. It resembles a bulldozer because, like the atmosphere processor corrupted by the queen, it's a builder of better worlds. Killing the corruption will allow for the utopian world. Covenant playfully subverts this by having H.R. Giger pull the levers during the final sequence and tuck Ripley in before he strolls away to make more monsters. quote:then her attempt to do that with guns--rescuing Newt from the hive and blowing up the queen's eggs--fails on both counts, because now she's quite literally brought the war back with her (a PTSD analogy if ever there was one) and Newt's still in danger. Only when she gives up on the guns and embraces her identity as a worker does she succeed Ripley clearly succeeded in rescuing Newt using weaponry. She wouldn't have made it out if she had "given up on guns." Remember, the powerloader is ejected into space with the queen. It's not a permanent transformational device. Her arc is complete after the return to the Sulaco, so the queen fight is just cheap action movie escalation that proves how evil villains are and how much they deserve to be destroyed, like Karl in Die Hard. Convenant mocks many of these Alien-isms that have become part of fan mythology, including unused elements from screenplay drafts (even the wooden planet of monks). "They want aliens, I'll give them loving aliens!" Ridley Scott knows the creature was long ago defanged. The chestburster pops out as an adorable action figure with squeezable arm action. That Forbes article, of course, matters little beyond driving a nonsensical flop narrative for forum posters. This is a franchise movie that fans will rent and buy on Blu-Ray and collect toys and art books for and argue about for years. This fanbase still talks about Alien 3. They'll always look in the egg. Toady fucked around with this message at 09:54 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 09:44
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Anyone adapting that or something similar would be incredible.
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May 28, 2017 09:44
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Hodgepodge posted:This is a common reaction around here to discussion which actually does engage with the text instead of relying on stock phrases, and it's hilarious projection every time. nah.
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May 28, 2017 11:44
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I'm disappointed with the hate for Covenant. Along with the legitimate criticism which I mostly agree with there are many voices that poo poo on it because it was not Alien enough, too much Alien, not Prometheus enough, too much Prometheus philosophical mumbo jumbo. I love Alien and Aliens as much as everyone but people have to realize that we can't have a movie thrill us again as they did- we already know all the beats- we know all about facehuggers, air shafts, evil androids, evil company men, hives, queens and eggs. You are never going to be surprised because that would require new ideas- and new ideas are hated by fans because they are regarded as bullshit retconning. I feel like at this point die hard fans just hate Ridley Scott for wanting to tell a story more complex than "seven people on a spaceship get facefucked to death by a monster in tight corridors." Or they just hate Ridley Scott period. Also I've always wondered if Aliens never happened and a Ridley Scott directed Alien movie came out in 2017 and featured: - a little girl that somehow survived a colony of Xenomorphs hunting her down by hiding in a ventilation shaft - the little girl knowing that they "mostly come out at night...mostly" which implies she's somehow seen them but they have not seen her - that little girl then gets abducted by a xenomorph but it never lays a finger on her and just grabs her like she's a valued war prisoner - our heroine makes it just in time to save the girl, kill the evil queen and get her happy ending. How many fans would be crying out how bullshit that is and how the kid would have been found and ripped apart in a matter of minutes. The "perfect organism" outsmarted by a little child. But Aliens gets a pass because Newt is an integral part of Ripley's arc and the themes of motherhood and blah blah. It's just bias and people ignoring tired tropes in the old movies because they like them and grew up with them. /rant over UnsuitableWasp fucked around with this message at 13:40 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 13:17
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it captured her to make her a host.
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May 28, 2017 13:40
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Yeah, I know that- but isn't it convenient that that was the reason and not just a good ol' snack time for the xenomorph.
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May 28, 2017 13:51
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Mark Kermode has, after his review, provided a bit of a dialogue about who Covenant upsets him as an Alien fan greatly, and it puts into words a lot of things that I had trouble articulating. It's a worthwhile watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PitTXwbhx5U
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May 28, 2017 14:24
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UnsuitableWasp posted:Yeah, I know that- but isn't it convenient that that was the reason and not just a good ol' snack time for the xenomorph. It's literally the central aspect of the creature that makes it special and not just another horror movie monster that kills you. Its parasitic nature is fundamental to its existence, and his been since its very first appearance. Breetai fucked around with this message at 14:31 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 14:28
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RedSpider posted:Each Alien film has gone out of its way to be different than the last one. It is one of the best parts about the franchise. gently caress following the play-it-safe Force Awakens route. See, I'd be ecstatic about an Alien movie that actually did something new. The first two are indeed great because of that very thing, while the next two certainly did not suffer from trying. However, Ridley's prequels do not deserve the implied credit for breaking new ground. They look exactly the same as other contemporary high budget sci-fi movies and follow a lot of the same tropes and story beats. Fans hold the religious themes up as Ridley's bold new direction, conveniently forgetting Brett's death and the entirety of Alien 3. Doing it Force Awakens stuff would at the very least meet fan expectations, and if it was pulled off with anywhere close to the same deftness I would have a good time seeing it. Breaking new ground would be better, but Ridley's shown he can't/won't do that so at the very least give us the next best thing.
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May 28, 2017 14:42
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To me it just seems like Kermode is really selling Alien short there in order to say he didn't like Covenant. Edit: Also just wanted to add, one of my favourite visual jokes in Covenant had to be the over abundance of chains on the spaceship that had practical use, felt like a response to the kind of commentary regarding Alien such as "why are there chains on a (industrial)spaceship, because it looks cool!" and Ridley one ups that. brawleh fucked around with this message at 14:50 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 14:43
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brawleh posted:To me it just seems like Kermode is really selling Alien short there in order to say he didn't like Covenant. I think he's absolutely right. Alien is a tight thriller with a few novelties executed supremely well. It's not the smartest movie ever, we just project a lot onto it because we all like it so much, which is totally valid. I'm fine with chains that just look cool. I think most people are. You seem to be saying that Ridley is making fun of his audience when he starts midichlorianing it up, and that this is great, but whether or not he's doing it on purpose I feel like it just kind of sucks. thotsky fucked around with this message at 14:59 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 14:55
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Breetai posted:It's literally the central aspect of the creature that makes it special and not just another horror movie monster that kills you. Its parasitic nature is fundamental to its existence, and his been since its very first appearance. Yes, I agree with you- its parasitic nature and the body horrors it inflicts on its victims make it unique. Even in the deleted scene in the first movie where Ripley finds Dallas and Brett being turned into eggs they are both partially decomposed and clearly suffering. If we take that scene as cannon even the way it abducts Brett is violent. But all of a sudden in Aliens Newt is magically safe and sound like it just sorta carried her to the nest and wrapped her in a cocoon. See what I mean- it doesn't fit with every other victim before Newt. Everyone that get captured suffers a fate worse than death except for her. No one is addressing my original point- having a child in your monster movie that survives against impossible odds is a tired trope. If it wasn't in Aliens you would be making GBS threads all over it, calling it formulaic and cliche. People just hear someone criticizing Aliens and then feel the need to defend it honor.
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May 28, 2017 15:01
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Get Blomkamp to direct a shot for shot remake of Alien 3
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May 28, 2017 15:02
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Biomute posted:I think he's absolutely right. Alien is a tight thriller with a few novelties executed supremely well. It's not the smartest movie ever, we just project a lot onto it because we all like it so much, which is totally valid. I'm fine with chains that just look cool. I think most people are. You seem to be saying that Ridley is making fun of his audience when he starts midichlorianing it up, and that this is great, but whether or not he's doing it on purpose I feel like it just kind of sucks. It's not so much the genre form of Alien that alone makes it so good, but besides he's basically placing a lot of importance upon the mystery of the Engineers, where the parasite comes from etc. Which was already explored in Prometheus with it's black goo, which he initially liked iirc. My take away from him is that he’s not really trying to read Covenant because he's a fan of Alien and feels Ridley undermines it here, or more pointedly is telling him there really is no Santa Claus. Also the chains thing is just funny, it was a fairly common comment made about Alien - which had a large industrial ship that moves cargo - In Covenant the chains were simply holding down cargo. I didn’t think it was a dig at the his audience, I just found just funny.
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May 28, 2017 15:15
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brawleh posted:My take away from him is that he’s not really trying to read Covenant because he's a fan of Alien and feels Ridley undermines it here, or more pointedly is telling him there really is no Santa Claus. Does he have to read Covenant any more if he feels the latter? It seems like a pretty straight-up and valid criticism which is why I brought up the midichlorians, I'm not actually upset about Ridley using chains in a practical way. K, others here have read Covenant as being a huge hilarious gently caress you to Alien fans, so I thought you were kind of agreeing with them.
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May 28, 2017 15:22
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Both Prometheus and Covenant are better directed the majority of modern sci-fi films. They're goregeous. They're also far more thematically ambitious than most modern blockbusters and even the other films in the series. People just want a dumb shooty Aliens type movie. No thanks.
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May 28, 2017 15:25
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Toady posted:Literally, the colonist dies from a chestburster, and that's what they torch. But if you're saying that the chestburster stands for a converted colonist, then you're beginning to realize what's really being said about the alien corruption and why the marines are there. They torch the chestburster and the colonist. In fact (going by the script here since I can't rewatch the movie right now) Apone calls for a flamethrower while the colonist's still alive. If you're pushing the movie as a Vietnam allegory and then refusing to acknowledge we've got a scene where a civilian gets doused with napalm, that's a bit hosed up. Anyway all this is irrelevant to the fact that guns aren't solving their problems; they take out something the size of a chihuahua and while they're all standing around watching the weenie roast, it lets the aliens ambush them. quote:Ripley doesn't take anyone's guns away. The obvious thing to do, which the audience knows is the right decision, is for Gorman to pull the troops out and come up with a different strategy that doesn't force them to lose an impossible fight. Instead, he orders them not to fire and freezes up when they start dying. Ripley has to take over and bust them out with a tank, and command falls to Hicks. They're like Harry and Helen at the end of True Lies, finding love through their Omega Sector membership, raising a daughter and killing terrorists together. It's telling then that after pointing out the threat to the heat exchanger, Ripley doesn't insist on pulling the marines out, and lets them waltz into the hive without a word of protest. She only changes her tune when it's way too late. After that she gets seduced by the awesomeness of big guns (her confident swagger as she walks around with the pulse rifle) but it just makes her problems worse (she's overconfident enough that she goes to sleep in a room with a couple of live facehuggers). quote:Gorman has a nervous sweat and wears a sissy bandage that may as well be a soiled diaper. Fetlife is thataway. Not arguing that Gorman and Burke are presented as ineffectual/evil, just that the alternative blunt-force military approach symbolized by Hicks is just as flawed. quote:They never gave the order to nuke. They really did. There was all the to-do about the chain of command ("CORPORAL Hicks?") and once it's established that Hicks is in charge, pretty much his next line is "we nuke the site from orbit". If you're saying that wasn't an order then vaya con dios dude because I'm not splitting hairs that fine. Anyway, like I said, it leads directly to the marines being left without an exit strategy and then the whole place burning up. You can argue it would have played out the same way if they'd just run away without the nuke order, but that's not the movie that got made. And again, I agree guns do help the marines get things done in the short time, but their overall situation always ends up worse. I also don't think it's about "the character of the people using them", because even straight-shooters like Vasquez and Hicks get people sprayed with acid when they start blasting away. quote:Ripley clearly succeeded in rescuing Newt using weaponry. She wouldn't have made it out if she had "given up on guns." Remember, the powerloader is ejected into space with the queen. It's not a permanent transformational device. Her arc is complete after the return to the Sulaco, so the queen fight is just cheap action movie escalation that proves how evil villains are and how much they deserve to be destroyed, like Karl in Die Hard. Sure, it helped rescue Newt in the short term, but she just ended up in greater danger (having a pissed-off queen after her instead of one little facehugger). I really think you're making way too much of the powerloader getting shot into space. It's a tool, and it's quite clearly mass produced (I think they even have two on the Sulaco, pretty sure we see a marine using one while Ripley's asking if she can help out), she can just get another one.
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May 28, 2017 15:28
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Super Fan posted:People just want a dumb shooty Aliens type movie. nope. the other stuff is true but that doesn't give the movies a pass when they stumble.
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May 28, 2017 15:38
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Groovelord Neato posted:nope. They do. They really really do. They want what amount to a video game.
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May 28, 2017 15:40
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Super Fan posted:They do. They really really do. They want what amount to a video game. To be fair, Alien Isolation is a better Alien movie than anything since 3.
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May 28, 2017 15:42
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Super Fan posted:They do. They really really do. They want what amount to a video game. not really, a lot of the complaints about the movie are the parts you think people want.
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May 28, 2017 15:44
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precision posted:To be fair, Alien Isolation is a better Alien movie than anything since 3. In video game terms that game's pretty similar to Prometheus and Covenant in terms of ambition vs. I can't believe a big budget game was made that plays the way it does. It's awesome.
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May 28, 2017 15:45
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Groovelord Neato posted:not really, a lot of the complaints about the movie are the parts you think people want. "these movies are so booooriinnngg! Shoot something goddamnit"
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May 28, 2017 15:46
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precision posted:To be fair, Alien Isolation is a better Alien movie than anything since 3. Alien 3 sucks
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May 28, 2017 15:47
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I hope Scott gets to make as many more of these movies as he'd like. Both were pretty flawed but more interesting than Blomkamp making a political action movie again but with xenomorphs. And I like Blomkamp. I do agree that in Covenant nothing really pays off and the last act felt like it was studio mandated obligatory sequences. I just think if someone else did it you'd probably just get a whole movie of that last act, maybe a really good version if you pick the right guy but nothing new.
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May 28, 2017 15:54
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Super Fan posted:"these movies are so booooriinnngg! Shoot something goddamnit" Instead of shooting, could we have engaging characters who don't constantly make dunderheaded decisions instead? Because that's a large part of what was missing.
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May 28, 2017 16:02
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I can't wait cor a South African synthetic played by Charlto Copley.
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May 28, 2017 16:05
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I'd enjoy deeper exploration of better-drawn characters.
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May 28, 2017 16:14
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UnsuitableWasp posted:I'm disappointed with the hate for Covenant. . I don't like the movie either, but you guys hurt my feelings talking about movies! - an adult
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May 28, 2017 16:29
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Most of the internet in 2006: Can't they just fuckin' make a movie where Superman punches a robot REALLY hard instead of all this other poo poo?!?!?!? Most of the internet in 2013: WHY THEY PUNCHIIINNNNGGG
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May 28, 2017 16:33
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Biomute posted:Does he have to read Covenant any more if he feels the latter? It seems like a pretty straight-up and valid criticism which is why I brought up the midichlorians, I'm not actually upset about Ridley using chains in a practical way.  The thematic element of peering into the abyss and it becoming manifest or realised as abject horror is something I love about these movies and those same themes are explored in Covenant, just differently. With Alien, the creature is a stand in for a person as a X figure, fear of this unknown aspect in any person - Under the Skin explores these same themes this neighbour aspect of the Other. Peeking into the egg and getting a faceful of unending sexual horror, of pure creation - but more importantly beyond that the company wanting to exploit this person was for me, in the end the true horror. That's what the black goo in Prometheus was all about as well, but again this comes back to David peering into the abyss with the joke in Covenant that he is his father's son and all too human. There's no end to the horrors he will create in believing himself a god, the fate of Shaw goes out of it's way to drive this home - David exploring this mystery itself is the horror, because it has no end. It's also a big element Oram's character and why he's willing to follow david after witnessing what's become of one of his crew and future neighbours - it's face melting stuff. 
brawleh fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 16:40
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Arglebargle III posted:I don't like the movie either, but you guys hurt my feelings talking about movies! Because "disappointed" means my feelings are hurt. Right.
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May 28, 2017 17:02
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brother, the good poo poo in the movie is all the not-xeno stuff. probably the weakest stuff is the "i wanna see them shooty the aliems!" bits.
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May 28, 2017 17:08
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Arglebargle III posted:I don't like the movie either, but you guys hurt my feelings talking about movies! Speaking for myself it's not so much that people disliking it makes me sad because it hurts my feelings, but more it makes me sad we can't have an Alien film that's mostly universally praised and living up to what set it up in the first place. Because then all you get is fights and arguments.
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May 28, 2017 17:11
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CelticPredator posted:Speaking for myself it's not so much that people disliking it makes me sad because it hurts my feelings, but more it makes me sad we can't have an Alien film that's mostly universally praised and living up to what set it up in the first place. Yes, the fanbase is so split down the middle with what they want in an Alien movie it's practically guaranteed each movie will get lovely reviews by the side that feels ignored. I'm personally fine with the xenos being backdrop for a story about an egotistical android playing God. David's madness was far more creepy than any alien attack. The birth of the neomorphs in Covenant was as good as we'll get to recapturing the magic of the first chestburster. But even then it was spoiled by every trailer that it bursts out of the guy's back.
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May 28, 2017 17:26
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CelticPredator posted:Speaking for myself it's not so much that people disliking it makes me sad because it hurts my feelings, but more it makes me sad we can't have an Alien film that's mostly universally praised and living up to what set it up in the first place. That's just the price for engaging with people on the Internet. For myself, I'm just blown away that a franchise for which AvP: Requiem seemed like a bright spot turned out to have space in it for absolute gems like Prometheus and Alien: Covenant.
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May 28, 2017 17:29
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My major criticism with Aliens is that it really narrowed the universe and mystery down, by making the aliens into "bugs". They're too understandable, and the point above about how they keep Newt alive is part of the same issue. I get why people don't like Prometheus and Covenant, but I don't agree with them. Whatever issues you have with the characters (issues that I maintain disappear if you bother to engage with both films) - Scott blew the mystery element back wide open. It's a bummer that the box office is doing relatively poorly, but I agree that it is up against some major contenders. It's not a great movie to take the family to on a long holiday weekend in America either.
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May 28, 2017 17:34
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