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DisgracelandUSA posted:If it takes 20ms per account, and there are 100k accounts, it would take 30 minutes to do a batch update on every account. And as more accounts are made, that number goes up. 20ms sounds low for that operation, and 100k accounts sounds low as well. You'd have to implement a system that allows you to quickly disregard large segments of accounts based on account status, MCT status, etc. The second you're calling another service over the wire, that 20ms per account quickly becomes laughable. you wouldn't have to do all accounts every day, just as many as you can without making it crazy. in the grand scheme of things, if you did one fifth of all accounts a day, ghost training would be effectively fixed. remember the old days in like 2008-2010 where when your sub lapsed it would bleed through for a couple of days? maybe they already did something like this a decade ago? idk i am not good with computer.
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May 28, 2017 21:05
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:you wouldn't have to do all accounts every day, just as many as you can without making it crazy. nah what used to happen is that skills that you set would keep training if you weren't subscriped so if you were going on vacation you'd set battleship V and cancel your subscription and come back to battleship V.
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May 28, 2017 21:33
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Tibalt posted:Are they poo poo, drama-filled, or weird role players? Depends, do you find a guy who continuously RPs as Trump weird? Let's definitely not talk about the ratting retarded regiment that makes up GME.
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May 28, 2017 21:48
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:you wouldn't have to do all accounts every day, just as many as you can without making it crazy. Two things before I stat sperging: I'm beating this dead horse because this kind of thing is what I do for work now, and I've been on call for 7 days now with another 7 to go. Imagine for a minute that I live in Australia, or Korea, or Japan, and I have 3 hours a day to play. And that 3 hours a day straddles downtime. Any increase to downtime is a direct decrease to the amount I can play, which results in me continuing making a judgement call on whether I still keep playing this game. There's the imperative for keeping downtime as short as possible. We'll make the assumption that we cannot parallelize this batch update and the existing maintenance. So we will have to increase downtime by some amount of time. If we go the route of handling a static portion of accounts (say 1/5th, 1/7th, 1/<period>), we'll know that we have solved the ghost training problem within a static window, i.e., no one will ever get more than <period> additional days of training. What we wont know is how long the that batch update will take in the future. It will require monitoring to make sure the period isn't increasing to a point the use case above results in the customer quitting because lol, what's the point? If we put a set time limit on how long we're willing to run this batch update (i.e., how long we increase downtime), then we know that downtime will always be expectedDowntimeLength + batchUpdateTime. That's fine, we have a window for maintenance that doesn't vary that much, but as more accounts are increased, you processing a smaller and smaller fraction of accounts. Which means that over time we increase the amount of ghost training time accounts accrue. I said @ 20ms per account, you require ~33m of processing per 100k accounts. If we peg the upper bound of processing at 80ms, which I think is pretty reasonable if it's resulting in a database write over the wire, then we're looking at between 30m and 120m per 100k accounts. I'm willing to bet we're north of 100k and south of 500k accounts, so we're looking at somewhere between 0.5 to 2 hours in the best case, and 2.5 hours and 10 hours of processing in the worst case, before we even begin adding new accounts. New account creation isn't monotonically proportionate to the number of active players (See, abusers, multiboxers who buddy account on plex, etc). At 30 minutes, you're looking at 4m a day of processing to have a period of a week, and in the worst case 1.5 hours a day. Remember that every month essentially reduces the cost of plex by a factor 50% So there's a trade-off between negating the reduction in plex price paid for people ghost training (which logically increases over time) vs. that breaking point for poor me living in Japan in the above example. So if you want to reduce that time, you need to engineer a method to reduce the total set of accounts to need to operate on, either by only checking accounts in current alpha status, setting some kind of dirty flag that says the customer change their account status / skill queue since the last time they were handled, and other special cases, which in turn costs execution time, increasing the above times, as well as developer time to engineer that method. So does writing the script that executes it this update in batch portion. And if something screws up, you're going to require an actual backfill, which is why you need super tight validation method that crawls backwards through the skill queue asking for each skill, "Is this an alpha skill? Is this skill level one that an alpha can train? If I remove this, will this still be a valid skill queue?," and those will take actual developer time, because customers tend to lose faith in businesses if they log in and their poo poo is changed willy fuckin nilly. Also, CS time when the inevitable screw up occurs. I think the point I'm trying to make is that, yes, this is one possible solution, but it's not simple, it's not straightforward, there are significant business drivers that make deciding how to implement a batch-style solution non-trivial, before we even get to technical constraints and limitations, and this operation is ridiculously risky. It makes sense why they attached it to a log-in trigger, but it's a shame they couldn't entirely disconnect it from the game.
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May 28, 2017 21:50
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.... Or you could set it up as part of the switch-over to omega. Run the process on that account only, advising the player that the sp will be adjusted.
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May 28, 2017 22:14
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grymwulf posted:.... Well, you would then have to contemplate limiting extractors to omega accounts.
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May 28, 2017 22:18
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DisgracelandUSA posted:If it takes 20ms per account, and there are 100k accounts, it would take 30 minutes to do a batch update on every account. And as more accounts are made, that number goes up. 20ms sounds low for that operation, and 100k accounts sounds low as well. You'd have to implement a system that allows you to quickly disregard large segments of accounts based on account status, MCT status, etc. The second you're calling another service over the wire, that 20ms per account quickly becomes laughable. 50 records checks and updates per second actually sounds slow to me. I know it's a SQL Server backend and all, but even Eve should be faster than that.
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May 28, 2017 22:46
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DisgracelandUSA posted:Imagine for a minute that I live in Australia, or Korea, or Japan, and I have 3 hours a day to play. And that 3 hours a day straddles downtime. Any increase to downtime is a direct decrease to the amount I can play, which results in me continuing making a judgement call on whether I still keep playing this game. There's the imperative for keeping downtime as short as possible. I think the impact to CCP's bottom line when they make extractors and injectors valueless is going to be a lot higher than alienating a minority of their subscriber base with a longer downtime. It isn't an elegant solution, but this poo poo needs to be triaged.
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May 28, 2017 22:48
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grymwulf posted:Or you could set it up as part of the switch-over to omega. Run the process on that account only, advising the player that the sp will be adjusted. Oh man, that might work but the idea of deleting skills is dangerous. That would need to be a 100% gently caress-up proof process. Also I'm not sure it would be any easier than detecting the switch over to alpha. It's entirely possible to do your ghost training without ever logging in while in the alpha stats (using plex donation). So the ghost trainer can log out as omega, spend months training at omega rates while alpha without ever logging in, then come back directly as omega. grymwulf posted:Well, you would then have to contemplate limiting extractors to omega accounts. Extractors *are* limited to omegas. Gwyneth Palpate posted:I think the impact to CCP's bottom line when they make extractors and injectors valueless is going to be a lot higher than alienating a minority of their subscriber base with a longer downtime. Extractors & injectors won't be valueless to CCP, someone still has to spend the money for the extractor. It's the SP filling them that's valueless. Really this is just speeding up the process that would happen anyways from people using alphas to farm free SP. That works just fine, though with a more expensive initial investment (training or buying a character with ~5m SP in non-alpha skills). Ghost training just does it more efficiently and twice as fast. So from CCP's side, they're gonna sell a ton of extractors in the near future, then almost none after than because the market will be glutted with injectors. They're front-loading their expected sales, which is not the worst move.
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May 28, 2017 23:23
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Klyith posted:Really this is just speeding up the process that would happen anyways from people using alphas to farm free SP. That works just fine, though with a more expensive initial investment (training or buying a character with ~5m SP in non-alpha skills). Ghost training just does it more efficiently and twice as fast. Alphas can't extract alpha skills, so you have to pay a plex to do any extraction. There's also only about 5m-ish? total SP that you can train as an alpha, and you need minimum 5.5m SP to do any extracting.
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May 28, 2017 23:29
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wipe the server
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May 28, 2017 23:59
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Alphas can't extract alpha skills, so you have to pay a plex to do any extraction. There's also only about 5m-ish? total SP that you can train as an alpha, and you need minimum 5.5m SP to do any extracting. Yeah. The original alpha SP farm ideas I saw back when F2P happened was that you train ~5m of non-alpha skills, then use a plex to extract every time you fully train your 5m of alpha skills. Plus the ~2m you can train during that plexed month, and it's a conversion of 1 plex to 7m SP. That's enough to make the extractor into the bulk of the value of each injector. (Extracts are 112 plex, the SP to fill it would be worth 36.) edit: ghost training is obviously way better, especially since you don't have to log in constantly to keep the 24h alpha queue going. I didn't know that alphas could use extractors to yank non-alpha skills though. Figured you had to be omega to use them at all. Klyith fucked around with this message at 00:21 on May 29, 2017 |
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May 29, 2017 00:18
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:I think the impact to CCP's bottom line when they make extractors and injectors valueless is going to be a lot higher than alienating a minority of their subscriber base with a longer downtime. I agree with the second part but not with the first part. I was also kicking around the idea that flooding the market with skill points and the subsequent drop-off in extractor sales was inevitable, so who cares about the piss in the sandbox? But that's not my forte.
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May 29, 2017 00:44
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I think we are overlooking a loving obvious way of reducing the workload of a batch script. If they can get the API working for seeing if a character's omega has expired to give fast/decent results - or if they have another way of doing it (they should, otherwise you would never revert to alpha) - Just pull a query of all the account IDs that expired in the last 24hrs at downtime, and just run those accounts through the batch script. You have now reduced your workload to extremely manageable levels. There really is no need to process all of them at the same time. Now, to catch the backlog, you may need to run this during a patch (which is extended downtime anyway) - this is the *only* time you need to have this batch run near real-time Then every week you pull one of your daily backups, run a script to check for accounts that have 'fallen' through the cracks, and add them to the batch for the next day's run. You minimize impact on the production system by utilizing the backups - which also can be used to test the integrity of the backups.
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May 29, 2017 01:14
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grymwulf posted:I think we are overlooking a loving obvious way of reducing the workload of a batch script. Um, don't quit your day job because large-scale databases may not be for you. Most of the actions that you are describing there are not a simple as they seem. That's the bitch of big data: "just find all the x" is a time-consuming operation when you have millions of records to look through. You can make it so that finding all x is very fast, but if finding y and z are more important then x gets cut. Also running operations on backups is both impractical and inadvisable.
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May 29, 2017 01:42
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Klyith posted:Um, don't quit your day job because large-scale databases may not be for you. I will bow to your expertise of big data, however, we know that ccp isn't dealing with 'BIG DATA'. They are running MS SQL Server, so a simple select accountID where... is a simpler operation. And yes, running a query on a backup isn't a good practice, so I will eat crow on that. But most of that query should be pre-built with their billing systems putting together a list of accounts to attempt charging for.
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May 29, 2017 03:13
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Reverand maynard posted:mittens is the only person I don't get upset about because he's one of the only alliance leaders that doesn't use his position to buy himself and friends faction supercaps and AT ships. img-timeline but MiniCom is doing drat good work fixing comms problems
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May 29, 2017 03:29
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Papal Mainframe posted:Ah you must be Talladar. Yeah I was there when that happened. Thanks for furthering my conviction he is a grade A mental case. Watching him try and reason why he shouldn't listen to someone with ESL teaching experience teaching him basic grammar was funny.
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May 29, 2017 03:31
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Unfunny Poster posted:Watching him try and reason why he shouldn't listen to someone with ESL teaching experience teaching him basic grammar was funny. Seraph is a loving nut but boy oh boy is it fun to get into a slapfight with him about his obsession with fat bees.
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May 29, 2017 03:45
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Is it better or worse than Marlona Sky's persecution complex?
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May 29, 2017 04:13
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:you mean where direkkktors called you mentally ill? Oh hell yeah, eve is a bad game but this is what makes the thread worth reading. Well that and it seems all the shitheads who got the message like desperate and Angelique douchecanoe (endie is not in this group. Endiegoodposts@kugutsumen.org) thinking they've laid low for long enough to dip a toe in the thread again. I can't wait for one of then to take some bait and us get meltdown2.0 I'm 200 posts back but I can't wait for one of them
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May 29, 2017 04:24
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orange juche posted:Is it better or worse than Marlona Sky's persecution complex? It's just as bad. Seraph has raged quit Reddit several times after he got mass downvoted by various people for the dumb poo poo he says. Most recently he's convinced himself that PL has been doing downvote brigading about his article, which to him proves he was right on all his points. Added to the fact he's spent years whining about TMC covering things other than EVE it's hilarious he's so fixated on one group. More so when he gets uppity and complains they're not playing EVE the way he thinks they should, gets told why they don't have to listen to him, and he spends days throwing a tantrum over it. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 04:40 on May 29, 2017 |
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May 29, 2017 04:37
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Some people get far too worked up about this game imo
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May 29, 2017 05:35
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Seraph, living proof that you should never, in the words of Kirk Lazarus, "go full retard".
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May 29, 2017 05:40
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Unfunny Poster posted:It's just as bad. Seraph has raged quit Reddit several times after he got mass downvoted by various people for the dumb poo poo he says. Most recently he's convinced himself that PL has been doing downvote brigading about his article, which to him proves he was right on all his points. Anyone ever said to him "Bro, it's just a game" to see the reaction?
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May 29, 2017 06:18
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What's a ghost trainings
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May 29, 2017 06:21
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Seraph is one of those guys that thinks if you never make a concession, even if you are objectively wrong, and post more than the other guy you "win". Its super exhausting to read.
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May 29, 2017 06:24
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The Slack Lagoon posted:What's a ghost trainings Training full speed with no subscription
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May 29, 2017 06:25
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who the gently caress is seraph
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May 29, 2017 06:52
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Reverand maynard posted:who the gently caress is seraph The Yin to Moomins Yang
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May 29, 2017 07:38
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there are plenty of ways to fix the problem, the fact that they haven't fixed it yet is a symptom total incompetence
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May 29, 2017 07:40
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 still after all these years
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May 29, 2017 07:43
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orange juche posted:Anyone ever said to him "Bro, it's just a game" to see the reaction? Yes. His reaction tends to be "then why do you care so much  " etc. and will go on to write pages of why he actually doesn't care as much as you.The comedy really comes from him trying to create alternative realities when he is proven wrong with a plethora of facts. Like Nex said, he thinks that if he keeps talking then he wins the discussion. Even more so comically is when he gets told super early on how he'll act, denies that he'll do that, and then does what the person he's debating predicted he would do. The guy just has a lot of mental issues to the point I pity him. Reverand maynard posted:who the gently caress is seraph Read and then weep. http://evenews24.com/author/seraph-ix-basarab/
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May 29, 2017 08:00
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Unfunny Poster posted:Yes. His reaction tends to be "then why do you care so much You forgot "You aren't trying to help, you're just concern trolling and I know you are! Caught you! nah nah nah nah nah nah"  This morning I discovered Asher's podcast is on Pocket Casts. Keep up the good work dude, it's about the only show other than Jeffs that I enjoy when it comes to EVE.
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May 29, 2017 08:50
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Papal Mainframe posted:You forgot "You aren't trying to help, you're just concern trolling and I know you are! Caught you! nah nah nah nah nah nah" That part was hilarious and more than 1 person PM'd me laughing at him over it.
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May 29, 2017 08:58
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https://youtu.be/mb07KWii5Nc Get smoked kid
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May 29, 2017 10:13
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lol if you're only playing one account during a fleet and you still manage to gently caress that up by broadcasting for bomb damage
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May 29, 2017 12:09
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Klyith posted:Um, don't quit your day job because large-scale databases may not be for you. Okay so yeah sure big data means you really have to consider performance, but Eve probably has a couple million account records at best. All you do is tie your conversion script into the account degrade scripts (which obviously already exist). For every account that's downgraded, add them to a list of accounts to process at a later date. This is a minimal addition to a batch script that is already running. Then, potentially during live hours, iterate across that list and check each account. If they're logged in, remove them from the list (they've already been logon-processed). If they're not logged in, run all the updates to their account that are required. This doesn't necessarily need to be done during downtime because if you're performing the operation, they're not logged in and therefore aren't going to be experiencing any service degradation because of DB locking, and the information that you're changing isn't going to be read by anyone but the user (who isn't logged in), so you're not impacting anyone else. However, given that the amount of people going alpha on a day-by-day basis is likely minimal, you could add this to downtime and likely see a correspondingly minimal (if any) downtime impact.
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May 29, 2017 14:33
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MacPac posted:https://youtu.be/mb07KWii5Nc That fight was the poo poo, alphafleet owns! The chinese pandas got pooped on pretty hard, but you guys provided the most damange to both parties with your bombs: http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=1001&b=7576567&e=243&t=buciak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXizIpyDPvo
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May 29, 2017 15:03
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Unfunny Poster posted:Yes. His reaction tends to be "then why do you care so much Followed by him methodically going through every single one of your posts. Especially on Kugu where he can downvote them. Really goes to show how much he doesn't care.
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May 29, 2017 15:27
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